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Burqa 'not welcome' in France: Sarkozy

Well that the Taliban and Al Qaeda fight for the Burka says a lot about its symbolism, its prevelant use and why it is not welcome in Europe and should not be tolerated in public spaces any longer.
 
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Well that the Taliban and Al Qaeda fight for the Burka says a lot about its symbolism, its prevelant use and why it is not welcome in Europe and should not be tolerated in public spaces any longer.

@unbeliever

can you please describe to an uneducated man like me what freedom MEANS.....does freedom mean what HENRY FORD ONCE SAID....you can buy FORD IN ANY COLOR AS LONG AS ITS BLACK......


means you can practise your belief in EUROPE as long as its set out by the government...??
 
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Despite your cynicism I'm happy to oblige, but since Freedom is such a vague term let me start by saying:
Freedom does not mean arbitrariness. 'Freedom' in the sense of a liberal society, does not include the freedom to destroy 'freedom' or undermine it. If my belief is to subjugate women I do not have the freedom to practice that believe. The burka is a symbol for that "belief" or rather a culture that does that.
As I said before it does not matter if some individuals don't interpret it that way. As it does not matter that Buddhist interpret the swastika as a symbol for peace(when they live here they can't display it). The society determines the meaning of symbols.

Furthermore the burka is only indirectly linked to Islam, nowhere in the quaran(or the Hadith) does it say to wear burkas, does it? So although it would only be partly relevant, denominational freedom does not even apply.
It is a relic from archaic, very patriarchal societies. These influence undermine equality and therefor are to be discouraged. That is why Sarkozy said not welcome. I don't know what associations you have but be assured we will not lock up women who wear burkas. But especially in public spaces and certainly in schools they have no place, since they portray and image of women that is intolerable to the (only for 30-40 years more or less realized) concept of gender equality. There might be social programs to help women realize why them wearing a burka is actually hurtful to themselves and young Muslim girls etc..

To a certain extent I agree with Agnostic Muslim though, that they are a symptom, but I wonder how he proposes to fight the cause then. You have to start somewhere..
 
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If my belief is to subjugate women I do not have the freedom to practice that believe. The burka is a symbol for that "belief" or rather a culture that does that.

i don't understand how do you interpret it as a subjugation...if a WOMAN willingly wears it!!!

The society determines the meaning of symbols.

true but that doesn't mean that a monk cannot roam around half naked in europe does it? i mean that isn't seen as indecency or anything....or is it...??

Furthermore the burka is only indirectly linked to Islam, nowhere in the quaran(or the Hadith) does it say to wear burkas, does it?

well this my friend is the debatable alot of people read a SURAH NISA(a chapter called the woman) and say it clearly says make sure you cover your face and your bosom....


But especially in public spaces and certainly in schools they have no place, since they portray and image of women that is intolerable to the (only for 30-40 years more or less realized) concept of gender equality.


ok so gender equality is defined by dressing!!??? i mean doesn't gender equality mean equal job opportunites life opportunities and so on....?!!

There might be social programs to help women realize why them wearing a burka is actually hurtful to themselves and young Muslim girls etc..

ok isn't this against freedom why discourage a "symbol" that some people think it is a part of their "belief"....


one thing i don't understand buddy is why does the WEST think that women are "FORCED" into wearing a burqa some like to wear it on their own....

if you want to be a true free man you should have a help line for women who are forced to wear a burqa....for the ones that CHOOSE to wear should be left alone....that my friend is freedom of ideology & expression....!!

encouraging burqa or discouraging it is EQUALLY WRONG....two wrongs never make a right....
 
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You are a moron. You think this is a place where you can spout bile against people and it will be ignored. Leave Canada immediately and go somewhere where they share you views. You were cut some slack with your previous threads however you have used up your good will.....

Sorry for bringing this up, I don't mean to divert the topic or anything. This is directed at the mods. And yes, this is a very genuine request. Call me silly, but this guy did more good than bad..he showed all of us how flawed and senseless extremist logic really is. His posts are so full of hate, that I initially thought he was joking (or he was some guy trying to imitate borat.) He should be allowed to voice his opinion, why not? if nothing else he'll demonstrate first hand why we need not follow.

As far as I can tell, he didn't really break any of the forum rules, his posts were pretty senseless, but he wasn't trolling, he's a homophobic at worst. and his posts are genuinely funny. You should consider bringing him back, think about it, I bet he'll change more minds than we can. He can teach the rest of us not to hate simply by 'hating' on everyone and everything he doesn't like.
 
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What if men started wearing burqa's? Wouldnt banning a man from wearing one also be wrong? Many have already said even if its not in any holy book its still a individuals choice.
 
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What if men started wearing burqa's? Wouldnt banning a man from wearing one also be wrong? Many have already said even if its not in any holy book its still a individuals choice.

Pointless hypothetical. Since the point for us is, that it is NOT a choice for most girls..

Watch the Video I posted ;)
 
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Well that the Taliban and Al Qaeda fight for the Burka says a lot about its symbolism, its prevelant use and why it is not welcome in Europe and should not be tolerated in public spaces any longer.

The Taliban and Al Qaeda also claim to fight for Islam.

So is banning Islam next?
 
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Pointless hypothetical. Since the point for us is, that it is NOT a choice for most girls..
It is also not a 'choice' for many other restrictions placed on women by men.

The underlying issue remains the attitudes the fuel such restrictions, and not the Burqa itself, which in some cases is worn as a personal choice. As I have said before, that a man can force a woman to do one thing, will likely exercise that control and domination in other ways, perhaps even physical abuse.
 
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Well since nobody, not even Muslims know or agree on what "Islam" is or means, that is not the same as the Burqua which is a very real instrument of subjugation.
To defend it is to defend Islamism or at least the 7th century culture the extremists of Salafists and Wahabists teachings follow.
Moderates covering for the extremists, like in so many other areas of religion.

And no, Islam will not be banned, ever. No western constitution allows for that.

I for one still hope you moderates come to your senses and it wouldn't even be necessary. ;P

When some people choose to wear it but most don't then to ban it is to protect the many from that possibility. Yes I agree it is not the main issue, but you have to start somewhere. It takes power away from the men who want to force their daughters or wives. Combined with a helpline (which already exists in every western European country) for mistreated women, safe houses and harsh laws domestic violence in non muslim families has been mostly eliminated. And I'm sure we can do the same for Muslims where structural violence in many shapes is still prevalent.
One thing working against that is they often receive less harsh punishments for violent crimes (in at least one case even murder), a disgusting result of cultural relativism.
 
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Well since nobody, not even Muslim know or agree on what "Islam" is or means, that is not the same as the Burqua which is a very real instrument of subjugation.

Don't patronize Islam or Muslim women, subjugation is when you have 12 or 13 year old girls who die as a result of self induced starvation/anorexia in a vain attempt to look like those stick insects we see on T.V commonly referred to as "super models".Subjugation is a western woman who puts herself through horrendous plastic surgery procedures due to the pressures of society to try and conform to what is dictated to her as being "sexy".This is the subjugation of women in western societies who are mentally enslaved, who are told that if they don't look sexually appealing to men they are worthless.This is the cattle market that western women are up for auction in everyday,this is your so called liberation.

To defend it is to defend Islamism.

We will defend Islam and its symbols regardless of what anyone thinks, don't dictate to us what Islam is or isn't or what it should be.

Moderates covering for the extremists, like in so many other areas of religion.

Your definition of what is moderate and what is extreme is of no consequence to us as Muslims.

And no, Islam will not be banned, ever. No western constitution allows for that.

Islam does not rely on western constitutions for its existence,the west seeks to change Islam from true Islam to what they want Islam to be which in reality is not Islam.

I for one still hope you moderates come to your senses and it wouldn't even be necessary.


Why not worry about your own society rather than taking the moral high ground and dictating to Muslims all the time.
 
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Well since nobody, not even Muslims know or agree on what "Islam" is or means, that is not the same as the Burqua which is a very real instrument of subjugation.
To defend it is to defend Islamism or at least the 7th century culture the extremists of Salafists and Wahabists teachings follow.

I am not defending a woman being forced to wear a Burq or any other forced restriction - like being forced to not wear a Burqa if she interprets her faith as calling for that.

The Burqa is not an 'instrument of subjugation', nor have I seen any evidence or arguments supporting that assertion. The Burqa is merely a piece of clothing.

The instruments of subjugation are the men who force restrictions upon women, whether it be denial of education, physical abuse or other

Moderates covering for the extremists, like in so many other areas of religion.
As of yet no sustainable argument showing the Burqa itself as inflicting tangible harm on society has been presented - so the extremists are those who share your views, in terms of banning a piece of clothing, not those who seek to prevent such draconian restrictions on ones freedom to act in accordance with their faith.

And no, Islam will not be banned, ever. No western constitution allows for that.
Yet we see a harmless piece of clothing being banned without any evidence supporting any tangible harm to society from it, just because some people associate it with 'Islamic extremists'. In fact people like Wilders have already attempted to essentially make the same argument - that it is Islam that is the problem, simply becasue extremists proclaim their actions to be guided by Islam.
I for one still hope you moderates come to your senses and it wouldn't even be necessary. ;P

The moderates are in their senses, as we point out how absurd the ban of the Burqa is, and how the arguments in support of such a ban themselves smack of extremism and draconian restrictions on the freedom of individuals to practice their faith as they interpret it, provided their is no tangible harm to society.

When some people choose to wear it but most don't then to ban it is to protect the many from that possibility. Yes I agree it is not the main issue, but you have to start somewhere. It takes power away from the men who want to force their daughters or wives. Combined with a helpline (which already exists in every western European country) for mistreated women, safe houses and harsh laws domestic violence in non muslim families has been mostly eliminated. And I'm sure we can do the same for Muslims where structural violence in many shapes is still prevalent.
To ban it does not 'protect' those who are forced to wear it. A piece of clothing does not 'harm' an individual, the mental and physical abuse that individuals might be subjected to from individuals who force women to don a piece of clothing does harm women, and on that count, protecting women from the actual abuse, the ban on the Burqa does nothing.

If a helpline can prevent domestic abuse, then the same measures can also liberate a woman being forced to don a Burqa, without imposing draconian restrictions on the freedom of others who freely choose to wear the Burqa.

Your argument falls flat on its face here.
One thing working against that is they often receive less harsh punishments for violent crimes (in at least one case even murder), a disgusting result of cultural relativism.
Then that is where laws need to be reformed, in ensuring that enforcement and punishment for crimes such as domestic abuse is uniform, and not by changing laws to impose restrictions on the freedom to practice ones faith as interpreted.

The Burqa ban as of now is nothing more than an expression of Islamophobia, couched in the language of 'liberating women', when the real causes that need to be addressed are either being ignored, as is the fact that if the underlying causes of male domination and abuse are addressed, women being forced to wear a Burqa is also addressed.
 
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Don't give me that ridiculous nonsense.
And the Jews in Nazi Germany chose to wear the Yellow Star because they wanted to preserve their identity..

What are you talking about?

Your comparison doesn't add up one little bit, because while only some girls wear mini skirts and you see a high diversity in clothing(and the amount of skin shown) in free societies, ALL women wear the hijab or burqa or at least the veil in countries were Islam has its way. In addition there actually is EVIDENCE of coercion and force when it comes to Muslim families or countries, their daughters and the veil/burqa.

I hope you show the emotion when it comes to banning nuns wearing there headgear or stopping the brides in the west from having veils on there weddings.......you gotta stop those woman from covering there hair when then go into a church also.
Go through history and you will see that not covering your hair is a recent phenomena.
Do tell my why muslim girls in the west who have all the freedom they want ,choose to cover there hair?....let me guess here all being forced.:crazy:


A 'protective' clothing against being raped by Muslim man who apparently have the self control of a two-year old, worn as a result of peer, family and religious pressure is hardly a choice. Even if some Muslim girls share this delusion or are too young and naive to understand what kind of message them wearing a burqa sends (namely they are the one responsible if being raped and women who don't wear a burqa or even a veil are somehow "less pure", creating new peer pressure.). Self deception isn't new to religious people so that is an easy next step..

And you think the think the media feeding you images of half naked beauties day in day out is somehow not pressure-brainwashing?
So if a muslim girl wears the headscarf she must be oppressed so the only to prove that she is not being forced into anything ,she has no have no headscarf?....is my logic correct.



No women in her right might chooses to wear a tent. No where in the world do you see any non Muslim "choosing" to dress up in a burqa simply because 1. women want to be seen(not objectified, just noticed). 2. women like to choose what they are wearing, if given the chance. Ask any Iranian women who ran from her barbaric country.

how many woman did you see during the recent riot wearing the "tent"....yaeh they heads covered...so!

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about dressing up all sexy and slutty, just "looking good" whatever they think that might be. Conforming to the (in some Islamic countries) universal 'tent look' out of fear, certainly is as far from any aesthetic self determination no matter what the culture..

What percentage do you think of muslim woman wear the "tent"?

And to honestly argue a girl growing up in a western country wants to wear something like that is so outrageously ignorant and sinister it almost offends me.

It must kill you that they are doing this with all the freedoms they can have like showing there legs and hairstyles off.

Furthermore a society decides what symbols mean within it, not the individual. If I think a swastika stands for peace and wear one on my shirt it doesn't make it so. The same goes for an extended middle finger or the burqa (and the veil although to a lesser extent since its meaning is not as universally agreed on).

Another that thinks its okay to twist islam to fit your desires and wish's.
 
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The Burqa is not an 'instrument of subjugation', nor have I seen any evidence or arguments supporting that assertion. The Burqa is merely a piece of clothing.
Then why do we place so much emphasis on uniforms? They are merely pieces of cloth as well.

The instruments of subjugation are the men who force restrictions upon women, whether it be denial of education, physical abuse or other
The 'other' could be other forms of exploitations. Western feminist thoughts have no lack of dissertations about the miniskirt, or even the skirt in general, as to how this piece of cloth exploits women. Same for make-ups. The reality is that we places a great deal of symbolism and intents into what we wear, which is essentially our way of proclaiming to the world our beliefs.
 
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