Burqa - A Security Challenge?

[SQ8]

95. Surah At-Tin (The Fig)



1. By the fig, and the olive,

2. By Mount Sinai,

3. And by this city of security (Makkah) ,

4. Verily, We created man of the best stature (mould),

5. Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low,

6. Save those who believe (in Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous deeds, then they shall have a reward without end (Paradise).

7. Then what (or who) causes you (O disbelievers) to deny the Recompense (i.e. Day of Resurrection)?

8. Is not Allah the Best of judges?

Find me the translation which you Quoted in your post. and find me in my posts where did i said i am right and others are wrong next only ALLAH Pak knows who is right and who is wrong. i have to follow what i know you have to follow what you believe.
dont force others to believe what you want them to believe.

A little simplistic in translation..

The word Khalaq.. means to instantiate..
ah-san.. Better..
Taqveem .. path, ability.. potential.

The ayat points out God's perfection in the human being.. the perfect proportions in physique.
The perfect balance of instincts and reason.

In context with the next ayat though.. it may be taken as God's "taunt"(not the actual intention or expression but the best I can come up with now) to Mankind.. That he has created us with such enormous potential and we waste it away on petty and inconsequential things.. and digressing from his prescribed path by our egoistic desires.

Petty things that include banging our heads over the sanctity of man made fashion.. against the safeguard of human lives..
and digressing by questioning everything god has prescribed to appease or blend in with western ideals.

 

[VCheng]

.......................
and digressing by questioning everything god has prescribed to appease or blend in with western ideals.

Santro: Why is it that "western ideals" are presumed to be against God's will? What ideals are these that automatically become suspect, and on what grounds?

 

[SQ8]

Santro: Why is it that "western ideals" are presumed to be against God's will? What ideals are these that automatically become suspect, and on what grounds?

Presumed western ideals monsieur. Ideals that have existed pre-Islam and post it.. in differing civilizations from time to time.
Some may be deemed immoral and other's disguise ignorance and rebellion as "progressive" or "freedom"...and since the western world has decided to assume de-facto ownership of them, hence "western ideals".

However in this case.. the ideals do not mean the basic civil rights , moral values that the west claims and in many cases successfully protects.

In this case by "ideals" I refer to concepts of progressive thought... where the critique of the "dogmatic" as you refer to it..performed by the western world due to the abandonment of their religious and spiritual identity by their intellectual elite.
Or perhaps I should repackage the term intellectual elite with those considered to be at the forefront of progressive thought.

Where "rebellion" against all natural and prescribed process is considered an integral part of expressing freedom. Processes which involve both Physical and mental balances on both Micro and Macro lenses.

And when the "western" world stops being recognized for its accomplishments in preserving Human rights and civil liberties or scientific progress.. but rather for their "freedom".. whether it is sexual "freedom" or unfounded critique of "dogmatic beliefs" if you will. Where the "freedom" IS against "god's will" or "dogma"... whichever suits your fancy.

This is where it becomes suspect as not being "ideals".. but rather "deceit".. and for us who believe in dogma and "god's will" and see it as an attempt to distort established , verified and concrete(by those who spent their whole lives researching and practicing the subject rather than by a part-time intellectual) tenets of dogma and god's will through organized attempts. The suspicion of these ideals grows.

An orthopedic surgeon will naturally grow suspicious of any chiropractor preaching to his patients and other orthopedic specialists about how there is no need for the knee joint or muscles in walking and only the nerves are enough to make a man walk.
He may even question the man's reputation as a chiropractor..

 

[forcetrip]

Why should I listen to your translation? I was about to give you the link but then I decided that I like my translation and it is the correct one so you should trust me instead of yourself and others.

 

[VCheng]

Presumed western ideals monsieur. Ideals that have existed pre-Islam and post it.. in differing civilizations from time to time.
Some may be deemed immoral and other's disguise ignorance and rebellion as "progressive" or "freedom"...and since the western world has decided to assume de-facto ownership of them, hence "western ideals".

However in this case.. the ideals do not mean the basic civil rights , moral values that the west claims and in many cases successfully protects.

In this case by "ideals" I refer to concepts of progressive thought... where the critique of the "dogmatic" as you refer to it..performed by the western world due to the abandonment of their religious and spiritual identity by their intellectual elite.
Or perhaps I should repackage the term intellectual elite with those considered to be at the forefront of progressive thought.

Where "rebellion" against all natural and prescribed process is considered an integral part of expressing freedom. Processes which involve both Physical and mental balances on both Micro and Macro lenses.

And when the "western" world stops being recognized for its accomplishments in preserving Human rights and civil liberties or scientific progress.. but rather for their "freedom".. whether it is sexual "freedom" or unfounded critique of "dogmatic beliefs" if you will. Where the "freedom" IS against "god's will" or "dogma"... whichever suits your fancy.

This is where it becomes suspect as not being "ideals".. but rather "deceit".. and for us who believe in dogma and "god's will" and see it as an attempt to distort established , verified and concrete(by those who spent their whole lives researching and practicing the subject rather than by a part-time intellectual) tenets of dogma and god's will through organized attempts. The suspicion of these ideals grows.

An orthopedic surgeon will naturally grow suspicious of any chiropractor preaching to his patients and other orthopedic specialists about how there is no need for the knee joint or muscles in walking and only the nerves are enough to make a man walk.
He may even question the man's reputation as a chiropractor..

How ironic!

Islam itself was once the "progressive" force yearning for "freedom" for its followers in the time it was first practiced, and was exactly itself an attempt to distort established , "verified" and "concrete" tenets of dogma and god's will!

Islam's golden years were during the time period it was everything what you are accusing the western ideals to be today.

(How can any dogmatic belief be ever described as "verified" and "concrete"? It is self-contradictory.)

 

[forcetrip]

I read the works of Ibn al Haytam and feel nothing but contempt for the current crop of muslims the world over.

"To have a succession of identical thoughts and feelings is to have no thoughts and feelings at all. Such is the lot of most Muslim countries today. They are mechanically repeating old values..."

Iqbal

 

[SQ8]

How ironic!

Islam itself was once the "progressive" force yearning for "freedom" for its followers in the time it was first practiced, and was exactly itself an attempt to distort established , "verified" and "concrete" tenets of dogma and god's will!

Islam's golden years were during the time period it was everything what you are accusing the western ideals to be today.

(How can any dogmatic belief be ever described as "verified" and "concrete"? It is self-contradictory.)

Was it god's will that Islam distorted?
Or was it infact.. a progressive force to quell the rebellion against god's will??
Islam's golden years were when progression was made in the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah..
and not questioning it.. please find me a golden period in Islam where everybody prayed as they wished, when they wished.. in whatever language they wished.

Unfortunately my attempt's at a "pun" on dogma didn't land well... nor did the one on progressive thinking.

 

[SQ8]

I read the works of Ibn al Haytam and feel nothing but contempt for the current crop of muslims the world over.

"To have a succession of identical thoughts and feelings is to have no thoughts and feelings at all. Such is the lot of most Muslim countries today. They are mechanically repeating old values..."

Iqbal

Exactly..
My objection is exactly on those Muslims who critque and question without even being clear on the question and the reasons to ask it..

I shall question the prescription of a certain medicine to me.. but I shall question it after I read about some of its ill effects and find my physicians prescription doubtful.. I will not simply question as to why am I being given an analgesic.. and when provided the answer.. dither on the fact that since its an anal-gesic.. it must have something to do with my anal passage and therefore sir I will not take it orally.

Original thought must be backed by curiosity and the need to know..
Not just the need to question.

 

[VCheng]

Was it god's will that Islam distorted?
Or was it infact.. a progressive force to quell the rebellion against god's will??

This is a difficult one to answer, depending on whether and how strongly one believes in kismet and Raza-e-Ilahi.

Islam's golden years were when progression was made in the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah..

I agree with this statement .......

and not questioning it..

.. but not this part, since one of the greatest periods of inquisitiveness in all of human history about nature, science, and metaphysics was this golden period of Islam, including deep questions about the very nature and intent of Islam itself.

please find me a golden period in Islam where everybody prayed as they wished, when they wished.. in whatever language they wished.

Prayer is only a small part of the overall life of a Muslim. How can one concentrate on this only to the exclusion of everything else, specially Huqooq-ul-Ibaad?

Unfortunately my attempt's at a "pun" on dogma didn't land well... nor did the one on progressive thinking.

No worries there!

 

[laiqs@mi]

Petty things that include banging our heads over the sanctity of man made fashion.. against the safeguard of human lives..
and digressing by questioning everything god has prescribed to appease or blend in with western ideals.

i earlier said in my post i am not in favor nor against burqa because it is one's will. if a women want to wear she must be allowed to wear what she want.
if you allow me to ask a question.
if a women does not wear a burqa. she is only in chadar.or she hide something and she is wearing loose cloths then???

 

[laiqs@mi]

Prayer is only a small part of the overall life of a Muslim. How can one concentrate on this only to the exclusion of everything else, specially Huqooq-ul-Ibaad?

How???

I listened and read that a man who knowingly abandon (Qaza) his one prayer is out of islams.
if you will ask me i will put hadiths here. untill now i am not quoting Quran and Hadith.
if a muslim kill any one he is not out of islam but knowngly without any sharai problem he abandoned his pray he is (Commiting kufr ) . and you are telling us Prayer is small part of islam.

 

[Ahmad]

How???

I listened and read that a man who knowingly abandon (Qaza) his one prayer is out of islams.if you will ask me i will put hadiths here. untill now i am not quoting Quran and Hadith.
if a muslim kill any one he is not out of islam but knowngly without any sharai problem he abandoned his pray he is out of islam. and you are telling us Prayer is small part of islam.

that's a bit harsh, isnt it? By that standard, i doubt if there will be a single muslim in the whole wide world.

 

[SQ8]

This is a difficult one to answer, depending on whether and how strongly one believes in kismet and Raza-e-Ilahi.



I agree with this statement .......



.. but not this part, since one of the greatest periods of inquisitiveness in all of human history about nature, science, and metaphysics was this golden period of Islam, including deep questions about the very nature and intent of Islam itself.

Again.. I have left the statement incomplete.. although my post after that explains my point.
A meaningful question is what matters..
Everybody can ask a question, its the question asked with reason that matters.


Prayer is only a small part of the overall life of a Muslim. How can one concentrate on this only to the exclusion of everything else, specially Huqooq-ul-Ibaad?

I agree with you, however.. it is a fundamental is it not? Part of basic tenets not just prescribed in the Sunnah but in the Quran.
Anything else, Human rights, environmentalism.. is additional. Infact in my view Islam was the original propagator of environmentalist thought.. the need to protect the balance of nature.
We are as Human Beings the viceroys of God on this earth.. being his best creation..
To be able to call ourselves that we have behaviors and rules on how to act in that position..

One must never stop questioning why such behaviors are necessary, but when intent on doing so it would be prudent to be clear in our intent.. a meaningful question rather than mindless banter with the monarch we represent.
If I am to ask as to why I pray when supposedly god has preordained destinies.. I must also then try searching for the answer and search well.
If I am to question why the electron as a particle is indivisible I would be foolish to accept the word of a school teacher on the topic and be content.


No worries there!

It is the nature of objections which to which I object..
If you must question and object.. which you should..
If you must search and learn.. which you should..
Do not be selective in your search, do not dither or accept the first step as the last step.
You should question why you believe in god and search for him.. but then please be so kind as to search for him a little more than just the confines of your room and by not finding his presence there decide god does not exist.

 

[laiqs@mi]

A little simplistic in translation..

The word Khalaq.. means to instantiate..
ah-san.. Better..
Taqveem .. path, ability.. potential.

The ayat points out God's perfection in the human being.. the perfect proportions in physique.
The perfect balance of instincts and reason.

I have quoted meaning of the ayah from known scholors. and prefer theirs over any other.

here's what it is writen in Tafseer ibn kathir

لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ فِي أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ ﴿٤﴾
Verily, We created man in the best form.
This is the subject being sworn about, and it is that Allah created man in the best image and form, standing upright with straight limbs that He beautified.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir -> Surah At-Tin -> Man becoming Lowly even though He was created in the Best Form

ibn kathir's tafseer is most respectable tafseer.

---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

that's a bit harsh, isnt it? By that standard, i doubt if there will be a single muslim in the whole wide world.

would you like me to quote hadith???
if you ask me i will..... these are not my words

 

[SQ8]

i earlier said in my post i am not in favor nor against burqa because it is one's will. if a women want to wear she must be allowed to wear what she want.
if you allow me to ask a question.
if a women does not wear a burqa. she is only in chadar.or she hide something and she is wearing loose cloths then???

The answer to your question lies in taking the Burqa to what it is.. a piece of cloth..
And when you do take it as a piece of cloth.. any woman.. wearing a Burqa.. or just a chadar covering her body with her hair open is still a security threat.. a woman wearing a jeans and jacket but with a niqab is a security threat.. because her identity is suspect in TODAY'S EXTRAORDINARY TIMES.

At this point.. the sanctity of a woman being lost for a few minutes is worth saving a hundred lives.
When you can decide by Qiyas or Ijmah.. the need for such extraordinary measures in times when deception is among-st us.
You will get your answer.

A Muslim woman has to meet the Satar standard.. by whatever way she wishes..
A Pakistani woman has to pass security checks..to protect the lives of her countrymen and even herself.
And if a certain piece of fashion is a hinderance to the check .. a check that in whatever way contributes to the protection of the lives of her fellow Pakistani's , Muslims or Not.. fellow Human's. Then by every possible logic given in the Quran to my knowledge as I have read and understood it from my teacher.. the Lives of other's take precedence.

The women may continue to wear her Burqa once through.. in the hall.. in the market.. wherever.

---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------

I have quoted meaning of the ayah from known scholors. and prefer theirs over any other.

here's what it is writen in Tafseer ibn kathir

لَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ فِي أَحْسَنِ تَقْوِيمٍ ﴿٤﴾
Verily, We created man in the best form.
This is the subject being sworn about, and it is that Allah created man in the best image and form, standing upright with straight limbs that He beautified.

ibn kathir's tafseer is most respectable tafseer.

---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------



would you like me to quote hadith???
if you ask me i will..... these are not my words

Depends on your choice.. respectable or popular.
Each Tafseer has its own viewpoints.. depending on the time it was written and the conditions for it.
The Propagation, Understanding and explanation of the Quran is an ongoing process since the time of the Caliph's.. and did not stop at Ibn Kathir's Tafseer.