Buner falls without a fight

[Always Neutral]

"Given this situation, it is difficult to conceive how the state of Pakistan is morally and psychologically prepared to fight the man who kills its soldiers on a daily basis."

I've been writing this for awhile now, maybe a couple of weeks. Your army doesn't need to move. If it waits much longer, the war will come to it. Then the questions are whether it leaves its barracks to fight and for whom?

Or is your army in the east to screen a taliban takeover of Pakistan from the Indians?

I'm befuddled that you have a nat'l emergency-a crisis even in your west that exceeds the local police/law enforcement abilities to the extent that you've new cops in SWAT bringing with them God's law with a local twist that includes immunity for the worthy.

That's sufficiently out of bounds to bring the state down on it like a two ton gorilla in most nations.

Yet your army doesn't move.

It's a pretty flag. Are you a nation?

I think we'll soon find out.

I sure hope so.

Dear S2

Could not agree more. There is a civil war on and the Army seems as much in denial as some members here. I think they are directionless and headless as chickens. For some reason people believe the West should solve this but I think we should not get involved. If the PA cannot stand up to a murderer like BM then we should just watch the fun.

Regards

 

[muse]

Your army doesn't need to move. If it waits much longer, the war will come to it. Then the questions are whether it leaves its barracks to fight and for whom?

Or is your army in the east to screen a taliban takeover of Pakistan from the Indians?

I'm befuddled that you have a nat'l emergency-a crisis even in your west that exceeds the local police/law enforcement abilities to the extent that you've new cops in SWAT bringing with them God's law with a local twist that includes immunity for the worthy.

That's sufficiently out of bounds to bring the state down on it like a two ton gorilla in most nations.

Yet your army doesn't move.

It's a pretty flag. Are you a nation?

I think we'll soon find out.

Indeed, you are not the only one who finds this confusing, incredible - our chicken hawks who can find only India, Israel, US and aliens from outer space as examples of their escapist mentality, hold much of Pakistan hostage and will offer us as a tribute to the real Muslims.

As for the army with it's nuclear weapons, what ever credibility it had, it lost when it surrendered Swat to a bunch of tribals, now it's every man for himself - and that army had better stay in it's barracks, less the people of Pakistan exercise themselves on it. First the army delivered Dacca, and now Swat, it will not lose anymore of Pakistan without the people of Pakistan exacting a price that any reasonable person would agree, the army deserves. It was groomed to protect Pakistanis and to fight. thus far it has done neither; the sacrifice of many more soldiers it accepts readily, referring to them as martyrs and yet it will not fight to protect those soldiers nor ordinary Pakistanis.

Pretty Flag, sure, nation - well, being a nation is a an act of WILL and flags,pretty or not, are a poor substitute for WILL.

 

[IceCold]

Could not agree more. There is a civil war on and the Army seems as much in denial as some members here. I think they are directionless and headless as chickens. For some reason people believe the West should solve this but I think we should not get involved. If the PA cannot stand up to a murderer like BM then we should just watch the fun.

Regards

So let me get this straight, our army is in denial, our people are living in denial, the GOP is also in a denial mode. So this means that people of Pakistan along with its army and politicians are a bunch of fools and only you or people like you sitting abroad know the reality about what really going on and only you guys are not living in a denial, rest every one is. Seriously i expected better from you, is that too much to ask.

 

[Stumper]

As for the army with it's nuclear weapons, what ever credibility it had, it lost when it surrendered Swat to a bunch of tribals, now it's every man for himself - and that army had better stay in it's barracks, less the people of Pakistan exercise themselves on it. First the army delivered Dacca, and now Swat, it will not lose anymore of Pakistan without the people of Pakistan exacting a price that any reasonable person would agree, the army deserves. It was groomed to protect Pakistanis and to fight. thus far it has done neither; the sacrifice of many more soldiers it accepts readily, referring to them as martyrs and yet it will not fight to protect those soldiers nor ordinary Pakistanis..

Muse, i remember many of us were cribbing of Pak Army running a parallel agenda, being a government in itself. We indian's were fond of saying "We dont know who is in charge in Pakistan".

As i see it, PA is clearly restricting itself to borders, WoT and adhering to government's mandate for good or bad. Ain't we being hypocrite in now blaming PA for inaction in Swat mess? Doomed if i do, Doomed if i don't!.

Place the blame where it belongs - GoP.

 

[Solomon2]

Since the Talibs have control over domestic law and external borders, why shouldn't the U.S. recognize officially recognize Talibanistan as a state? The worst that can happen is Pakistan would bleat about it, but what backbone does Pakistan possess anymore?

 

[S-2]

"As i see it, PA is clearly restricting itself to borders..."

You must be an Indian. Can you see the Pakistani army from your side of the border? The American army has been looking for some time but we don't see them in the west. We understand it's a large and impressive army.

Some day we hope to catch a glimpse...

 

[S-2]

"...why shouldn't the U.S. recognize officially recognize Talibanistan as a state?"

No precedent after the taliban gov't of Afghanistan wasn't recognized but with Obama talking to everybody that hates us, why not?

I nominate you as the U.S. Ambassador to the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan.

Congratulations.

 

[Always Neutral]

So let me get this straight, our army is in denial, our people are living in denial, the GOP is also in a denial mode. So this means that people of Pakistan along with its army and politicians are a bunch of fools and only you or people like you sitting abroad know the reality about what really going on and only you guys are not living in a denial, rest every one is. Seriously i expected better from you, is that too much to ask.

Of Course you are in denial ie is the people who make the decisions.

Lets see the course of events.

First you said that there was nothing like the Pakistani taliban.

Then when BM started appearing in public with guns you all said he was working for RAW and Mossad and is a mass murderer.

Then you said he is a Good Man who wants Sharia and that he will disarm.

Then you hand over Swat to him and say that he will remain in Swat only.

Then you say that he drove 100 miles to Buner for 'some tea".

I wonder who is denial about his real intentions to make Pakistan an Islamic state which follows his version of murderous Sharia ?

Regards

 

[Solomon2]

I wonder who is denial about his real intentions to make Pakistan an Islamic state which follows his version of murderous Sharia ?

We all seem to have the common problem that we think too much of ourselves and cannot bear any thought otherwise. No Exit!

 

[muse]

Stumper

Seems to me we have to hold the army accountable, this army and it's commander, Kiyani, told it's Pesident that it will not be able to respond positively to the order to maintain law and order during the Long March - this army has indeed refused battle in Swat, this army continues to offer it's Jawans daily, as human sacrifices to no tjust Talib but ineptitude. This army must be made to realize that whatever it's gameplan, the people of Pakistan want talib and their enablers hanging from every light pole in the country, from every tree in the country.

It was slow going but Pakistani society is awakening, it took fear to awaken it, it took degrading it, it took too long and the job is not as yet complete and as others here have said, it may even more to civil war and while no one wants civil war, if it is unavoidable, it's best that we be prepared to win it or there will be no Pakistan of Jinnah - and there cannot be any other Pakistan but that of Jinnah - these real muslims have to be put done like the mad dogs that they are and if the army won't do it, let it sit in it's barracks and the people of Pakistan will do what is necessary -- I do recall how offended Pakistanis were about "With us or against us" and "friend or foe" and today I wonder whether Pakistanis may think differently about "friend or foe" and "with us or against us"

But on a lighter note, there is this:

The Taliban are here
Monday, April 20, 2009
Samad Khurram

Back in 2002, I was returning from Friday prayers when I saw an unusual gathering of singing and quasi-dancing mullahs. Unusual because I had always assumed mullahs to be against all types of kufr (art). The amused crowd were listening to chants of “Taliban aa-gae! Taliban aa-gae!” I smirked: As if! Pakistan is a nuclear country with the seventh-largest army. We’re safe.

The mullahs’ songs have been answered – the Taliban indeed are coming. And with them the cowards are bringing a lifestyle that destroys everything Pakistan.

Oh, no! Wait! This guy is on the paycheque of those who are trying to break Pakistan. The Taliban are our heroes, it is America which is in the wrong. Yes, this is the typical self-defence mechanism coming to full force. Having nothing to lose, and having been already declared a CIA agent earlier in life, I suppose I’ll continue. Continuing with a genuine fear that these words are falling on either deaf or hostile ears, it may well be that Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s Pakistan is over in a year if all this chaos continues.

Perhaps, if Jinnah knew that the country he founded was going to become an arena for public flogging, where the laughs of sadist barbarians will mingle with the screams of women and children, he would not have decided on creating it. Had he known that there would be more suicide bombs in his country than any other place in the world, where militants and bigots would go around threatening women to “dress properly,” where schoolchildren would have to undergo security checks as if they were in a war zone, he would be extremely upset.

All our talk shows discuss the merits and demerits of the 17th Amendment, or bash America and India. Yes, American drones and Indian statements are a threat to our sovereignty. Yes, the balance of power is important, but it is the Taliban who have killed more people than India or the US drones combined, and have made us feel more unsafe than anyone else in the past thirty years. What other definition of sovereignty is there than provision of protection to people and maintenance of the writ of the state? Why can’t we have some programmes that discuss the atrocities of the Taliban, acts of terror that they do and how they have destroyed Pakistan?

No, it’s not the “Hindu Zionists” working on a CIA/Mossad-sponsored conspiracy to break Pakistan. And for the sake of argument, even if they are foreign-funded, does that not mean we should double our efforts to counter them? Remember when India briefly occupied some land in 1965 and how the whole country rallied to defend this invasion? My grandfather had stories of people going with sticks to support the army. I am afraid I will not have any such stories of patriotic resistance to tell anyone when another enemy has taken control of, say, a fourth of the NWFP and roughly one-twentieth of Pakistan.

But remember the great Pakistani Fauj which, under the Ameer-ul-Momineen, Zia-ul-Haq, crushed the Russians? This is only a plan to make America taste the same fate! Yes, thank you Zaid Hamid. For a nation which already lives in denial, your conspiracy theories are all we need to turn us completely schizophrenic.

For the love of God, can anyone explain to me why the great army whose laurels we sing from the day we are born has still not been able to jam radio stations pouring terror in Swat? How is it that these Taliban leaders can appear before journalists in broad daylight and roam freely without any trouble even when they claim responsibility for a suicide bombing?

Perhaps the real question I should ask is, why do I even care? When I took time off from Harvard to be part of the lawyers’ movement I had seen a ray of hope. There were concerned citizens and lawyers who stood for what was right, no matter what the consequences. We fought for a principle and won, with the hope that things will slowly improve. Today the very judges we had faith in released the Lal Masjid cleric whose crimes everyone knows about. If the judiciary was going to release people whose crimes were recorded on TV, perhaps it does explain why the Taliban are growing popular.

Having said that, rays of hope like Afzal Khan Lala, who has refused to move from Swat while he is alive, appear every now and then. However, he stands alone in facing the storm. Other than Ayaz Amir, not a single Pakistani leader has spoken out against the Taliban. Will the real leader who can get rid of these monsters stand up, please? Imran Khan? Qazi? Nawaz Sharif? This silence is criminal!

What’s worse is that these leaders of ours have unanimously approved a state within a state run, which is not accountable to anyone, absolved the Taliban of all crimes and provided them a safe haven to kill more Pakistanis. The so-called Nizam-e-Adl Regulation was endorsed by the National Assembly without any proper debate.

The sad story, friends, is that the Taliban are here, and unless we stand up against them in every possible way, Pakistan will be lost for good. And it will not be lost because of Zardari’s real or perceived corruption or anything else like that, but because of the silence of the lambs – we ALL will be responsible if Pakistan fails.

The writer is a student at Harvard University and turned down an award from the US ambassador as a mark of protest against killings of Pakistanis by US drone attacks. Email: [email protected]

 

[IceCold]

Of Course you are in denial ie is the people who make the decisions.

Lets see the course of events.

First you said that there was nothing like the Pakistani taliban.

Then when BM started appearing in public with guns you all said he was working for RAW and Mossad and is a mass murderer.

Then you said he is a Good Man who wants Sharia and that he will disarm.

Then you hand over Swat to him and say that he will remain in Swat only.

Then you say that he drove 100 miles to Buner for 'some tea".

I wonder who is denial about his real intentions to make Pakistan an Islamic state which follows his version of murderous Sharia ?

Regards

Ok before i reply to your nonsense, just tell me where did i ever said BM is a good man? I challenge you to find a single post of mine where i said BM is a good man and that he will disarm.

 

[Stumper]

Seems to me we have to hold the army accountable, this army and it's commander, Kiyani, told it's Pesident that it will not be able to respond positively to the order to maintain law and order during the Long March - this army has indeed refused battle in Swat, this army continues to offer it's Jawans daily, as human sacrifices to no tjust Talib but ineptitude. This army must be made to realize that whatever it's gameplan, the people of Pakistan want talib and their enablers hanging from every light pole in the country, from every tree in the country.

Muse, my point is, shouldn't your government be the one to demonstrate state's writ? .. As is in any other democracy...Let PA execute it.

 

[Stumper]

You must be an Indian. Can you see the Pakistani army from your side of the border?

To be honest, bofors have not been flaring much in my corridor, lately.

 

[muse]

Stumper

You are absolutely right, however; we must not ignore the fact that Pakistan security policy is area in which the army is very, very "influential" -

While I think we all would agree that Pakistan's government ought to be held responsibile for establishing it's writ, it's clear that it is a exceptionally weak government and the fact the Army Commander is credited with having played the determining role in diffusing the Long March, I don't think it stretches credibility to argue that the army is playing politics and not it's primary duty which is to safeguard the lives and property of Pakistanis against it's enemies.

 

[Stumper]

Stumper

You are absolutely right, however; we must not ignore the fact that Pakistan security policy is area in which the army is very, very "influential" -

While I think we all would agree that Pakistan's government ought to be held responsibile for establishing it's writ, it's clear that it is a exceptionally weak government and the fact the Army Commander is credited with having played the determining role in diffusing the Long March, I don't think it stretches credibility to argue that the army is playing politics and not it's primary duty which is to safeguard the lives and property of Pakistanis against it's enemies.

But that's my point Muse. GoP has not demonstrated, in any way, it's aptitude for being intolerant to anyone challenging state's writ. As you correctly said a "Weak" government. Armed forces will always be enabler to establishing state objective's. Unless GoP defines them, we cant really pull up PA for being mute.