Brahmos working on a reduced size Brahmos Mini version for Rafale & mig 29k

[Gessler]

Mig29Ks and Rafales are designed for strike roles . If we can have Rafale-M we can expect anti ship version of Scalp . Brahmos III is not mini Brahmos as it will be 2500kg .
No by the time of Rafale induction , we would just have prototypes of LRCM . Considering Indian speed in induction LRCM wouldnt be seen operational before 2025 . Air Version of Nirbhay would be long range equivalent of Scalp where as LRCM would be long range equivalent of Brahmos . The former has stealth , the latter has speed . I seriously believe Naval Tejas is point defense fighter fighter and wont carry Brahmos Mini .

BrahMos-3 and Mini are one and the same. Although I believe the "mini" is the official name so far.
BrahMos-M.

I wouldn't expect LRCM to take that much time as you have said. 2025? The air-launched Mach >3 PJ10
will be launched in months from now. We can easily emulate that tech into LRCM with 600km range.

LRCM is the better option that the ASMPA which could be range-restricted.

As of the SCALP, I think I should wait until the armament package of Rafale (air force maritime strike
squadrons) is finalised. There will be no purchase of Rafale-M. - Vikramaditya and Vikrant are both STOBAR
carriers who'se air-wings are already finalised to be MiG-29K and NLCA Sea-Tejas. By the time IAC-2
Vishaal CATOBAR carrier comes, naval FGFA will be ready. No need/requirement of Rafale-M that I see.

N-Tejas will carry 2 x Kh-35E Switchblade ASCM, having an ASCM is essential for a carrier-borne fighter.
Plus I believe BrahMos-M is the planned replacement for 130-km Mach 0.8 KH-35E in Indian service.
NLCA will carry PJ10-M once its ready and certified for use on this bird, the Kh-35E is also likley to be
obsolete by that time, the new BrahMos will be great for NLCA.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Proof for your claim?

it is just like asking proof that SUN rises in east

dude conventionally all cruise missile are stealthy but's whats different about SCALP/storm shadow missile that makes it more stealthy than rest .?

ans: SCALP/STORM shadom
a) stealthy body shaping & coating

b) superior guidance & navigation system

c) scalp can be released at very low level

d) The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.

it's only rivals may be US JASSM & Taurus KEPD thats why i said "SCALP is one of the stealthiest cruise missiles"

SCALP:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...dacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf
SCALP MBDA:

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Storm-Shadow_ds.pdf

SCALP'S WINDOW

http://www.defense-update.com/products/s/storm-shadow.htm

 

[Bratva]

it is just like asking proof that SUN rises in east

dude conventionally all cruise missile are stealthy but's whats different about SCALP/storm shadow missile that makes it more stealthy than rest .?

ans: SCALP/STORM shadom
a) stealthy body shaping & coating

b) superior guidance & navigation system

c) scalp can be released at very low level

d) The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.

it's only rivals may be US JASSM & Taurus KEPD thats why i said "SCALP is one of the stealthiest cruise missiles"

SCALP:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...dacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf
SCALP MBDA:

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Storm-Shadow_ds.pdf

SCALP'S WINDOW

Storm Shadow / SCALP EG Cruise Missile

Okay are you sure Scalp can not be intercpeted by SAM's since it's the stealthiest ALCM of world? I'm asking becausewhenever Pakistani air launched cruise missile Ra'ad is discussed which has all the capabilities you mentioned. a) b) c) d), it is assumed it can be easily shot down by your akash barak and spyder SAM.

 

[Bratva]

it is just like asking proof that SUN rises in east

dude conventionally all cruise missile are stealthy but's whats different about SCALP/storm shadow missile that makes it more stealthy than rest .?

ans: SCALP/STORM shadom
a) stealthy body shaping & coating

b) superior guidance & navigation system

c) scalp can be released at very low level

d) The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.

it's only rivals may be US JASSM & Taurus KEPD thats why i said "SCALP is one of the stealthiest cruise missiles"

SCALP:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...dacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf
SCALP MBDA:

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Storm-Shadow_ds.pdf

SCALP'S WINDOW

Storm Shadow / SCALP EG Cruise Missile

Okay are you sure Scalp can not be intercpeted by SAM's since it's the stealthiest ALCM of world? I'm asking becausewhenever Pakistani air launched cruise missile Ra'ad is discussed which has all the capabilities you mentioned. a) b) c) d), it is assumed it can be easily shot down by your akash barak and spyder SAM.

 

[Gessler]

Okay are you sure Scalp can not be intercpeted by SAM's since it's the stealthiest ALCM of world? I'm asking becausewhenever Pakistani air launched cruise missile Ra'ad is discussed which has all the capabilities you mentioned. a) b) c) d), it is assumed it can be easily shot down by your akash barak and spyder SAM.

When did he say that?

Any cruise missile in the world can be intercepted, even BrahMos & Nirbhay as well. What varies is the probability to be intercepted, which is lesser with SCALP and greater with Ra'ad.

Have you compared the electromagnetic signatures of Ra'ad with SCALP? Does Ra'ad have any type of RAM coating? Does Ra'ad use a radio altimeter? The signals from this could easily give away the missile's position to enemy passive sensors/radars, once this happens, jamming the datalink/GPS of Ra'ad will be easy. There are far more vulnerable sensors on Ra'ad which could give away its position and invite jamming.

I think people say Akash can shoot down Ra'ad becoz Akash has already demostrated that it can shoot down the Lakshya PTA drone, which basically has the same RCS as Ra'ad, and is also powered by a turbojet engine, and can criuise at low altitudes. Plus we deploy fairly large nos. of Akash SAMs and SPYDERs. Barak-8's actual capabilities are not revealed yet but it has terminal ballistic-missile interception ability too.

Has Ra'ad been tested in Pakistan on how to evade incoming SAMs like Akash? Have you tested the Ra'ad to cruise into a target and deploy a no. of SAM sites/radar stations guarding the target? Until you do that, all the a)b)c)d) capabilities you said will remain claims only.

SCALP was thoroughly tested by European scientists in all types of conditions, after each test, improvements are made to the missile's system to increase its survivability and reduce detection levels. Im sure Nirbhay will also go through such testing before induction, against Akash/SPYDER/B-8.

 

[Bratva]

When did he say that?

Any cruise missile in the world can be intercepted, even BrahMos & Nirbhay as well. What varies is the probability to be intercepted, which is lesser with SCALP and greater with Ra'ad.

Have you compared the electromagnetic signatures of Ra'ad with SCALP? Does Ra'ad have any type of RAM coating? Does Ra'ad use a radio altimeter? The signals from this could easily give away the missile's position to enemy passive sensors/radars, once this happens, jamming the datalink/GPS of Ra'ad will be easy. There are far more vulnerable sensors on Ra'ad which could give away its position and invite jamming.

I think people say Akash can shoot down Ra'ad becoz Akash has already demostrated that it can shoot down the Lakshya PTA drone, which basically has the same RCS as Ra'ad, and is also powered by a turbojet engine, and can criuise at low altitudes. Plus we deploy fairly large nos. of Akash SAMs and SPYDERs. Barak-8's actual capabilities are not revealed yet but it has terminal ballistic-missile interception ability too.

Has Ra'ad been tested in Pakistan on how to evade incoming SAMs like Akash? Have you tested the Ra'ad to cruise into a target and deploy a no. of SAM sites/radar stations guarding the target? Until you do that, all the a)b)c)d) capabilities you said will remain claims only.

SCALP was thoroughly tested by European scientists in all types of conditions, after each test, improvements are made to the missile's system to increase its survivability and reduce detection levels. Im sure Nirbhay will also go through such testing before induction, against Akash/SPYDER/B-8.

Yes Ra'ad uses RAM. Navigation is TERECOM+DSMAC+INS. So your claim about far more vulnerable sensors on Ra'ad is wrong. GPS is add on option which will be used when an accuracy of <10 meter is required. To target C&C Air fields large moving columns, GPS requirement is minimal.

For the rest of part i agree that Only advantage storm shadow got is it is tested under every possible scenario while Ra'ad is still under testing stage.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Okay are you sure Scalp can not be intercpeted by SAM's since it's the stealthiest ALCM of world?

well thats a lame & childish reply from you i would say .

how can u expect that i would say Scalp can not be intercpeted by SAM's since it's the stealthiest ALCM of world?

if thats the case every country would have died to have it's inventory.

It is stealthy because it is designed & built purposely keeping stealth & survivabilty against future threats in mind .

I'm asking becausewhenever Pakistani air launched cruise missile Ra'ad is discussed which has all the capabilities you mentioned. a) b) c) d), it is assumed it can be easily shot down by your akash barak and spyder SAM.

another lame comparisoin i would say

how can u compare a battle proven missile with a testing phase missile

& thats not all u have equated alll the a) b) c) d) capabilties of scalp with RAAD missile

just becoz it is stealthy shaped like SCALP it's technology ,performance,guidance & capabilty becomes equal to SCALP .

 

[Bratva]

well thats a lame & childish reply from you i would say .

how can u expect that i would say Scalp can not be intercpeted by SAM's since it's the stealthiest ALCM of world?

if thats the case every country would have died to have it's inventory.

It is stealthy because it is designed & built purposely keeping stealth & survivabilty against future threats in mind .

another lame comparisoin i would say

how can u compare a battle proven missile with a testing phase missile

& thats not all u have equated alll the a) b) c) d) capabilties of scalp with RAAD missile

just becoz it is stealthy shaped like SCALP it's technology ,performance,guidance & capabilty becomes equal to SCALP .

Battle proven in a sense it was launched when all the sam network was destroyed and accurately hit the target is the same case how SCALP was tested under realistic scenarios during it's testing phases. So battle phase is another feather in a cap not a test bench on which it can be claimed SCALP is stealthiest ALCM of world!

Ra'ad Guidance = based on a operational LACM and follows the same method of guidance used in SCALP

Performance and Capability = 4 Tests carried out successfully. Meeting all the required parameters. Now testing is being done under different scenarios Hilly, Desert terrain etc


Dr.Somanath. go read once again what you wrote a/b/c/d. Ra'ad has demonstrated all these points. Face Palm to you too that you call yourself a researcher and don't know about Ra'ad capabilities.

 

[The Deterrent]

Guys, please stick to the thread.

@Mafiya, Ra'ad has been tested 4 times only (not 6-7) and its capabilities have been over-stated. Storm Shadow, SCALP and Taurus are definitely world class with JASSM on top.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Battle proven in a sense it was launched when all the sam network was destroyed and accurately hit the target is the same case how SCALP was tested under realistic scenarios during it's testing phases. So battle phase is another feather in a cap not a test bench on which it can be claimed SCALP is stealthiest ALCM of world!

the problem with u is u dont know what are u posting or elze u cant understand what i am saying
now what has battle proven got to do with stealthiness .

i have explained u earliear

Stealthiness of a scalp missile has been due to a) b) c) d) capabilties of SCALP in post no 17

& how can u say all scalp were launched after all SAM network were destroyed .meanwhile here is a link which says scalp destroyed SAM /airdefence system

2) SCALP ATTACK:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/FoxThree_Fox15.pdf

Guidance = based on a operational LACM and follows the same method of guidance used in SCALP

llolllz

check again the link what i posted earlier

it involves far better programming (algorithm)& anti jamming systems also terminall IIR seeker

Performance and Capability = 6-7 Tests carried out successfully. Meeting all the required parameters. Now testing is being done under different scenarios.

4 tests but thats not in intense electronic warfare environment ,which the SCALP has undergone in testing by MBDA

Dr.Somanath. go read once again what you wrote a/b/c/d. Ra'ad has demonstrated all these points.

oh boy!!

dont teach ur father how to produce babies

i know what i am posting i said "just becoz it is stealthy shaped like SCALP it's technology ,performance,guidance & capabilty becomes equal to SCALP"

and thats not true

a) stealthy body shaping & coating

yes RAAD has stealthy shaping but MBDA has designed SCALP after the succesful APACHE missile program which itself was great
cruise missile & also stealthy so obviusly one would built a better succesor

but what about RAAD has it got any predesscors ???? it is derived from Babur which is GLCM

b) superior guidance & navigation system

far better programming (algorithm) & anti jamming tested in intense electronic environment by MBDA which has decades of experience

& it also has terminal IR seeker with autonomous target recognition algorithms

now WTF has Nescom & PAF AWC experience in designing such complex programming & testing in elecronic warfare environment .Kindly tell me i am dying to know

c)scalp can be released at very low level

tell me where it says PAF launched RAAD at such low level like rafale launched SCALP i want to know

d) The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.

seriously RAAD also has this capabilty
oh common !!!

Face Palm to you too that you call yourself a researcher and don't know about Ra'ad capabilities.

facepalm is actually on u becoz u have unncessarily dragged RAAD in this thread which has nothing to do with thread & thats not all u urself dont know or dont want to know the capabilties of SCALP

REGARDS

 

[DrSomnath999]

Guys, please stick to the thread.

@Mafiya, Ra'ad has been tested 4 times only (not 6-7) and its capabilities have been over-stated. Storm Shadow, SCALP and Taurus are definitely world class with JASSM on top.

exactly thats what i am saying

that RAAD has got nothing to do with this thread & RAAD is a good missile no doubt but u should apply your common sense before posting rather than be jingoistic

 

[Bratva]

the problem with u is u dont know what are u posting or elze u cant understand what i am saying
now what has battle proven got to do with stealthiness .

i have explained u earliear

Stealthiness of a scalp missile has been due to a) b) c) d) capabilties of SCALP in post no 17

& how can u say all scalp were launched after all SAM network were destroyed .meanwhile here is a link which says scalp destroyed SAM /airdefence system

2) SCALP ATTACK:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/FoxThree_Fox15.pdf



llolllz

check again the link what i posted earlier

it involves far better programming (algorithm)& anti jamming systems also terminall IIR seeker




yes but thats not in intense electronic warfare environment ,which the SCALP has undergone in testing






oh boy!!

dont teach ur father how to produce babies

i know what i am posting i said "just becoz it is stealthy shaped like SCALP it's technology ,performance,guidance & capabilty becomes equal to SCALP"

and thats true

a) stealthy body shaping & coating

yes RAAD has stealthy shaping but MBDA has designed SCALP after the succesful APACHE missile program which itself was great
cruise missile & also stealthy so obviusly one would built a better succesor

but what about RAAD has it got any predesscors ???? it is derived from Babur which is GLCM

b) superior guidance & navigation system

far better programming (algorithm) & anti jamming tested in intense electronic environment by MBDA which has decades of experience

& it also has terminal IR seeker with autonomous target recognition algorithms

now WTF has Nescom & PAF AWC experience in designing such complex programming & testing in elecronic warfare environment .Kindly tell me i am dying to know

c)scalp can be released at very low level

tell me where it says PAF launched RAAD at such low level like rafale launched SCALP i want to know

d) The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.

seriously RAAD also has this capabilty
oh common !!!



facepalm is actually on u becoz u have unncessarily dragged RAAD in this thread which has nothing to do with thread & thats not all u urself dont know or dont want to know the capabilties of SCALP

REGARDS

Agree with all your points now. Except D. Yes. Ra'ad ALCM flight path is planned on a dedicated system. Mentioned in ISPR release when first time ALCM was tested.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Agree with all your points now.

good

Except D. Yes. Ra'ad ALCM flight path is planned on a dedicated system. Mentioned in ISPR release when first time ALCM was tested.

hold on a second read that again

d) The flight path of the missile is planned before the mission on a dedicated system which supports up to 16 missiles. This capability enables the pilot to launch the missile from a relatively wide "window", which does not expose him to risk of detection and engagement with enemy air defenses.

upto 16 missiles how can u be so sure about 16 missiles part on behalf of RAAD which has not even tested 16 times

 

[tvsram1992]

double post

 

[tvsram1992]

BrahMos-3 and Mini are one and the same. Although I believe the "mini" is the official name so far.
BrahMos-M.

I wouldn't expect LRCM to take that much time as you have said. 2025? The air-launched Mach >3 PJ10
will be launched in months from now. We can easily emulate that tech into LRCM with 600km range.

LRCM is the better option that the ASMPA which could be range-restricted.

As of the SCALP, I think I should wait until the armament package of Rafale (air force maritime strike
squadrons) is finalised. There will be no purchase of Rafale-M. - Vikramaditya and Vikrant are both STOBAR
carriers who'se air-wings are already finalised to be MiG-29K and NLCA Sea-Tejas. By the time IAC-2
Vishaal CATOBAR carrier comes, naval FGFA will be ready. No need/requirement of Rafale-M that I see.

N-Tejas will carry 2 x Kh-35E Switchblade ASCM, having an ASCM is essential for a carrier-borne fighter.
Plus I believe BrahMos-M is the planned replacement for 130-km Mach 0.8 KH-35E in Indian service.
NLCA will carry PJ10-M once its ready and certified for use on this bird, the Kh-35E is also likley to be
obsolete by that time, the new BrahMos will be great for NLCA.

I dont know if Brahmos III is Mini but Brahmos III weighs 2500kg where as you mentioned 1500kg in your post that means the missile is still heavy . My point would be advantageous as we can carry 2 scalp missiles instead of one Brahmos . Then it would be serious compromise in performance of Mig29K if it carries Brahmos , hence it wont . In 2025 I mean induction , not prototype testing . You know how much time will it take for development of missile , its not just adding a stage , the reason why our other missiles took so long for development of ranges . Dont you think we could have directly modified Moskits into LRCM taking technology from Russia rather than going for Brahmos , inducting them and wasting 10 years ?
When the missile is fighter launched , range wont be a problem it will take minutes for fighter to cover 300km distance . More over no fighter would practically launch a missile from such a long range to destroy an enemy who is 600km away . Sukhois with 3 Brahmos can do a perfect job for maritime operations . Because its IAFs Rafales and Migs that will be fitted with Brahmos mini , its no where mentioned that it should be anti ship role . Making an Anti ship version wouldnt take much time to develop . Acquirement of Rafale M is other question as Navy may use it shore based or for future carriers . As a point defense fighter N lCA will carry minimum 2 ASCM and 2-4 A2A missiles for sure , i didnt deny that point but by no chance N LCA can carry 2500kg Brahmos . Kh35 weighs 500kg i guess that makes N LCA to carry 5 times Kh35s than one Brahmos . Kh35s might get another replacement but Brahmos cannot replace it .