Bomb Blasts blam game What A JOKE

[Jay_]

riots do not kill shias. suicide bombers kill shias and sunnis alike, at the Prophets birthday they killed 50 sunnis, before they killed 50 shias in Quetta. in all cases the people of Pakistan are suffering from these vermons, do not call them Muslim, alright ganesh?

Alright riots or bombs you got the story alright. And my question is still valid, would you say Pakistani govt justify the shia suuni riots, coz as I see it happens almost every month, and the govt has failed to stop it.

I'm not calling them any names, they call themselves as muslims, ok Mohammed?

 

[Averroes]

justify? they do everything in order to stop them. The government is battling them, we're losing soldiers on the Afghan front, Baluch front, and they're inflitrating into Pakistan via baluch, which some say india has a hand in.

 

[Jay_]

The government is battling them, we're losing soldiers on the Afghan front, Baluch front, and they're inflitrating into Pakistan via baluch,

Shia-sunni riots are happening coz of Baluchis?? LeJ and TeJ are made of Baluchis?

which some say india has a hand in.

Feeling is mutual, some say Pakistan has a hand in fermenting secretarian violence in India.

Coming back to my first question, what makes you think Indian govt is justfying killing muslims thro riots??

 

[Averroes]

I sincerely hope not the indian gov justifies the killing of Muslims. Right wing hindu parties, the hindu zionists in india etc.

 

[Awesome]

You mean the Indian Govt ordered the Gujarat riots

Yes, I can provide you documentary evidence of that.

and justified it??

Yes, I can provide you documentary evidence of that. IIRC it has a clipping of Vajpayee contributing to this justification too

You gotta be kidding me.

No, Jay, sadly I'm not.

Simple question, when ever a riot happens in Karachi and 100's of Shias are killed, would you say the Pakistan govt is predominantly Sunni and does it justify the killings?

The government supported any sort of sectarianism. Pak doesn't recognize the sects of Shia/Sunni and by law they are both, declared as just Muslims.

My political leanings in India really doesnt matter, coz I havent said anything supporting BJP so far. If it really needs to be addressed, then I'm neither BJP or Congress for that matter.

It's difficult being BJP innit? Even though they are the better rulers of India; economimcally.

Gujarat riots was an unfortunate accident, and in a multi cultural multi religious country like India, we are not ideal, we have extremists from both the religions and put in a billion people its bound to happen. I condemn muslims terrorists bombing Mumbai equally like I did for the extremists in Gujarat.

Right but the condemnation is shrouded by a louder voice to somehow pin it on Pakistan. Three SIMI guys have now formally been arrested. They are a local group. Till you have zilch on Pakistan how can you even be naming them?

I'll tell you what is happening. India is desperately trying to cover up the fact that India has Indians that want to bomb India. To admit this, in front of the international community, I'd imagine would be a tad bit embarrassing for India which has worked really hard to present a world power image of itself.

 

[Jay_]

Yes, I can provide you documentary evidence of that.

Documentaries are not god's word Asim. I can do a selective documentary as well.

Yes, I can provide you documentary evidence of that. IIRC it has a clipping of Vajpayee contributing to this justification too

Vajpayee wouldve said, the riots wouldnot have happened if the train wasnt burnt. He wouldnt have justified the death of 2000 people. Big difference.

The government supported any sort of sectarianism. Pak doesn't recognize the sects of Shia/Sunni and by law they are both, declared as just Muslims.

Indian govt does the same. Per constitution there is no discrimination based on religion, race and color.

It's difficult being BJP innit? Even though they are the better rulers of India; economimcally.

Do not lay a flame bait, I wrote what I meant, I did not brand you as something that you are not, so you should have the same courtesy.

Right but the condemnation is shrouded by a louder voice to somehow pin it on Pakistan. Three SIMI guys have now formally been arrested. They are a local group. Till you have zilch on Pakistan how can you even be naming them?

Go back 3 pages, you would know why we blame Pakistan.

I'll tell you what is happening. India is desperately trying to cover up the fact that India has Indians that want to bomb India. To admit this, in front of the international community, I'd imagine would be a tad bit embarrassing for India which has worked really hard to present a world power image of itself.

Unlike your President, who has a group to "draw" a moderate image of Pakistan, we are not projecting any image about India.

 

[Averroes]

Indian govt does the same. Per constitution there is no discrimination based on religion, race and color.

Yet caste system infests india.

Vajpayee wouldve said, the riots wouldnot have happened if the train wasnt burnt. He wouldnt have justified the death of 2000 people. Big difference.

ok so the gov knew there would be a massacre of muslims after the train burning, what measures did they take?

Unlike your President, who has a group to "draw" a moderate image of Pakistan, we are not projecting any image about India.

Not? covering up aids/hiv numbers in order to keep up business appearance?

 

[Jay_]

Yet caste system infests india.

Shia sunnis are not recognized by Pakistan govt, yet people are dying coz of that.

ok so the gov knew there would be a massacre of muslims after the train burning, what measures did they take?

The Pakistani govt knows after every bombing on Shia's there will be riots, why do we see riot deats after every bombings?

Not? covering up aids/hiv numbers in order to keep up business appearance?

We are not covering anything, its all public that India has almost 5 million HIV + patients and its got nothing to do with the business apperance of India. You think the West will stop buying stuff from India coz of HIV?

 

[Averroes]

Shia sunnis are not recognized by Pakistan govt, yet people are dying coz of that.

You're making no sense.

On a governmental level caste system is denounced, yet there are hundreds of millions of innocent indians subjected to this inhumane hindu mythical system.

Alright, name a "riot" in which there were thousands of sectarian casualties. After the heinous murder of Allama Turabi Pakistani rangers and policemen controlled and guarded the protestors. This occurs after every event, Pakistan protects its citizens.

Now how was India protecting the Gujarati Muslims?

People will stop buying when they notice the outsourcing to slave labourers leads to unemployment in their own countries.

______________________________________________________

A Dalit is not considered to be part of the human society, but something, which is beyond that. The Dalits perform the most menial and degrading jobs. Sometimes Dalits perform important jobs, but this is mostly not socially recognised. Dalits are seen as polluting for higher caste people. If a higher caste Hindu is touched by an untouchable or even had a Dalit's shadow across them, they consider themselves to be polluted and have to go through a rigorous series of rituals to be cleansed.

In India there are approximately 250 million Dalits. This means that 25% of the population is Dalit. It also means that in a country, where everybody is supposed to have equal rights and opportunities, 1 out of 4 persons is condemned to be untouchable.

In general one can say that being a Brahmin means that you are more privileged. This can imply having a good education and, accordingly, a more powerful position in the society. Being born as a Dalit you will be less well off and because of less education you will have a less good job. In daily life there are a lot of consequences of being a Dalit.

Dalits are poor, deprived and socially backward. Poor means that they do not have access to enough food, health care, housing and/or clothing (which means that their physiological and safety needs are not fulfilled). They also do not have access to education and employment. With deprived we would like to underline the injustice they face in every days life. Officially, everybody in India has the same rights and duties, but the practice is different. Social backwardness, lack of access to food, education and health care keeps them in bondage of the upper castes.

http://www.dalitnetwork.org/who.html

The sins of Girdharilal Maurya are many, his attackers insisted. He has bad karma. Why else would he, like his ancestors, be born an Untouchable, if not to pay for his past lives? Look, he is a leatherworker, and Hindu law says that working with animal skins makes him unclean, someone to avoid and revile. And his unseemly prosperity is a sin. Who does this Untouchable think he is, buying a small plot of land outside the village? Then he dared speak up, to the police and other authorities, demanding to use the new village well. He got what Untouchables deserve.

One night, while Maurya was away in a nearby city, eight men from the higher Rajput caste came to his farm. They broke his fences, stole his tractor, beat his wife and daughter, and burned down his house. The message was clear: Stay at the bottom where you belong.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/index.html

 

[Jay_]

You're making no sense.

You are going in circles, that why.

On a governmental level caste system is denounced, yet there are hundreds of millions of innocent indians subjected to this inhumane hindu mythical system.

End of topic, the Indian govt does not have a discriminating policy, there you go, you said it.

There are millions of Shia's and Ahmedias persucted in Pakistan coz of the inhumane islamic system. Do you deny that?

Alright, name a "riot" in which there were thousands of sectarian casualties. After the heinous murder of Allama Turabi Pakistani rangers and policemen controlled and guarded the protestors. This occurs after every event, Pakistan protects its citizens.

India has a population of 1 billion, get that. Now after Mumbai balsts, I didnt see any riots where muslims got killed, so infact would you not agree that India is protecting its citizens as well?

Now how was India protecting the Gujarati Muslims?

Muslims still live there and there are atleast 140 million muslims in India. They dont share your opinion.

People will stop buying when they notice the outsourcing to slave labourers leads to unemployment in their own countries.

In that case Pakistan would loose its biggest exports...textiles.

http://www.dalitnetwork.org/who.html
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/index.html

Dont go in circles, it was not Indian govt policy. Lets say, honor killings happen in Pakistan, does it mean that its Pakistan's official policy??

 

[Averroes]

going in circles?

i asked you a question, you did not reply, rather gave a flawed comparison.

You need to be a bit self critical here, there's one thing writing it on paper, but then it needs to be put in practice. I do not wish to badger indian nation out of spite, it's out of the will to help those poor dalits. They constitute 250 million, and It's in both our interests as fellows in humanity to help them out. Just few weeks back the indian govs. attempt to give Dalits the same opportunity as others met furious Hindu opposition with demonstrations over university campuses.

There are millions of Shia's and Ahmedias persucted in Pakistan coz of the inhumane islamic system. Do you deny that?

Shias are not persecuted. I am Shia. What proof do you have of this? Islam liberates people from the hindu oppressive caste, we are all equals under Allah - YHWH.

To be born a Hindu in India is to enter the caste system, one of the world's longest surviving forms of social stratification. Embedded in Indian culture for the past 1,500 years, the caste system follows a basic precept: All men are created unequal. The ranks in Hindu society come from a legend in which the main groupings, or varnas, emerge from a primordial being. From the mouth come the Brahmans—the priests and teachers. From the arms come the Kshatriyas—the rulers and soldiers. From the thighs come the Vaisyas—merchants and traders. From the feet come the Sudras—laborers. Each varna in turn contains hundreds of hereditary castes and subcastes with their own pecking orders.
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/index.html

India has a population of 1 billion, get that. Now after Mumbai balsts, I didnt see any riots where muslims got killed, so infact would you not agree that India is protecting its citizens as well?

of that 1 billion, a quarter of it are untouchables. Apart from blaming muslims, Muslim communities are feeling the tensions, and I hope the government thwarts any hindu attacks on Muslims and Christians. The people of Gujarat, the survivors they share this feeling no doubt, as any victim of such brutal assaults would. To suggest there is no anger and fear still today is naive.

The Chief minister of Gujarat Narendra Modi under whose rule the Gujarat massacres occurred, is still the chief minister and he has according to atimes article:

in the years since, he has adopted a virulently anti-Muslim, pro-Hindutva (an exclusivist Hindu ideology that the right wing advocates) agenda.

In fact, POTA might have been instrumental in fueling terrorism. Its misuse - POTA was used by the Modi government in Gujarat to harass Muslim youth after the riots - is said to have contributed to deepened rage, prompting hundreds of them to join extremist outfits fighting the Indian state.

India playing politics with terrorism
By Sudha Ramachandran
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HG22Df01.html

In that case Pakistan would loose its biggest exports...textiles.

Textiles have always historically been imported from the east, and still today are mainly produced in the east. Back a thousand years when the crusaders reached jerusalem, they started taking back arab cotton and silk clothes.

 

[Jay_]

going in circles? i asked you a question, you did not reply, rather gave a flawed comparison.

Yes, Asim said Pak doesn't recognize the sects of Shia/Sunni and by law they are both, declared as just Muslims.

And I said, Indian govt does the same. Per constitution there is no discrimination based on religion, race and color.

You said, Yet caste system infests india.

And I said, Shia sunnis are not recognized by Pakistan govt, yet people are dying coz of that.

Now, why is it a flawed comparision and who is going in circles?

You need to be a bit self critical here, there's one thing writing it on paper, but then it needs to be put in practice.

Now lets get real here, what do you know about Indian constitution and its policy of positive dicrimination?

They constitute 250 million, and It's in both our interests as fellows in humanity to help them out.

So you mesn to say that India can start taking interest in Pakistan's problem in the larger interest of humanity?

Just few weeks back the indian govs. attempt to give Dalits the same opportunity as others met furious Hindu opposition with demonstrations over university campuses.

Thats local politics, infact I wonder why does it hurts you so much. Reservation laws are being changed in India, there is a dialogue process and our "democratically" elected leaders are working on it. There is hindu opposition, coz the so called 250 million people worship the same gods that the others do.

Shias are not persecuted. I am Shia. What proof do you have of this? Islam liberates people from the hindu oppressive caste, we are all equals under Allah - YHWH.

Stop the sermon, yet you still have Shia sunni divisions and Ahemdias being persecuted based on their beliefs on Islam. Talk about oppression!

of that 1 billion, a quarter of it are untouchables. Apart from blaming muslims, Muslim communities are feeling the tensions, and I hope the government thwarts any hindu attacks on Muslims and Christians. The people of Gujarat, the survivors they share this feeling no doubt, as any victim of such brutal assaults would. To suggest there is no anger and fear still today is naive.

Yes the anger might still be there. Its as ridiculous as you saidm there is no Shia-sunni divide in Pakistan, yet I see bombings and riots every month.

The Chief minister of Gujarat Narendra Modi under whose rule the Gujarat massacres occurred, is still the chief minister and he has according to atimes article:

The people of Gujarat elected him.I or you does not have any say on who "they" can elect. We dont have a supreme leader who can summarily dismiss elected representatives. The President ought to be convinced along with the legislators, if a state's CM is to be over thrown.

Textiles have always historically been imported from the east, and still today are mainly produced in the east. Back a thousand years when the crusaders reached jerusalem, they started taking back arab cotton and silk clothes.

You dont make sense at all. There is nothing traditional in it. Go say that to the mill employees in NC/SC in the US, or the thousands of workers who lost their job coz of cheap steel imports. If they start blocking all the imported goods then China, Germany, Japan would be first to sink.

 

[Averroes]

Yes, Asim said Pak doesn't recognize the sects of Shia/Sunni and by law they are both, declared as just Muslims.

And I said, Indian govt does the same. Per constitution there is no discrimination based on religion, race and color.

You said, Yet caste system infests india.

And I said, Shia sunnis are not recognized by Pakistan govt, yet people are dying coz of that.

Now, why is it a flawed comparision and who is going in circles?

They are flawed and incoherent. How can it not recognize the two schools of thought? There are even different legislations in some cases like Shias do not have to pay Zakat, they have Khums which they pay. There is no ideological difference that says one is inferior to another whilst hinduism has a specific caste system which permeates every scope of life, meaning constant oppression. They alone outnumber all of Pakistans citizens according to some estimates.

So you mesn to say that India can start taking interest in Pakistan's problem in the larger interest of humanity?

YES! But if india cannot remove hindu oppression to the quarter of a billion oppressed Dalits, and housing a quarter of the worlds poorest, introducing virulently anti-Muslim, pro-Hindutva agenda, what do they intend on coming with.

Thats local politics, infact I wonder why does it hurts you so much. Reservation laws are being changed in India, there is a dialogue process and our "democratically" elected leaders are working on it. There is hindu opposition, coz the so called 250 million people worship the same gods that the others do.

Local Politics show how deep the oppressive Caste system runs in Hindu society. Dalits convert to Christianity and get killed by caste members.
http://www.worthynews.com/christian...threaten-massive-rape-and-killing-of-orphans/

It hurts me that there are those born who since birth are told that they are inferior, that they are untouchable. It hurts all of us to see these injustice taking place, and you should feel the same.

One night, while Maurya was away in a nearby city, eight men from the higher Rajput caste came to his farm. They broke his fences, stole his tractor, beat his wife and daughter, and burned down his house. The message was clear: Stay at the bottom where you belong.

Across India members of upper castes often refuse to share water with Untouchables, convinced that any liquid will become polluted if it comes in contact with an Untouchable. In the countryside Untouchables are often forbidden to use the same wells and ponds as upper caste villagers. Municipal governments have begun to install separate water pumps. But in most rural tea shops, Untouchables still are not permitted to drink from glasses served to upper caste customers.

Stop the sermon, yet you still have Shia sunni divisions and Ahemdias being persecuted based on their beliefs on Islam. Talk about oppression!

You are telling me that we are oppressed? Alhamdulillah, Praise be to Allah, I was exceedingly fortunate in being born free. Another empty baseless accusation on your behalf, fueled by ignorance and questions you cannot answer.

Yes the anger might still be there. Its as ridiculous as you saidm there is no Shia-sunni divide in Pakistan, yet I see bombings and riots every month.

Once again, list them please. Is vishnu, ganesh, or the cow deity that roams your street telling you this? Substantiate.

You dont make sense at all. There is nothing traditional in it. Go say that to the mill employees in NC/SC in the US, or the thousands of workers who lost their job coz of cheap steel imports. If they start blocking all the imported goods then China, Germany, Japan would be first to sink.

We were on the topic of textiles, not steel.

 

[Jay_]

They are flawed and incoherent. How can it not recognize the two schools of thought? There are even different legislations in some cases like Shias do not have to pay Zakat, they have Khums which they pay.

So there is no diff between Shia's and Sunnis? You think I dont know anything about Islam? Then why shud they exist as 2 diff sects, if they dont have any difference.

There is no ideological difference that says one is inferior to another whilst hinduism has a specific caste system which permeates every scope of life, meaning constant oppression.

You are straying away from the topic, I said, officially India is secular and there is no discriminatory policy in India. You still havent proved me wrong. I dont know why you are trying to turn this in to Hindu Vs Islam thing, I seriously dont care about the in equality in Islam or the oppresiveness of hinduism, as it has got nothing to do with the discussion.

They alone outnumber all of Pakistans citizens according to some estimates.

Thats coz Pakistan has a paltry population compared to India. Why do you compare absolute numbers??

YES! But if india cannot remove hindu oppression to the quarter of a billion oppressed Dalits, and housing a quarter of the worlds poorest, introducing virulently anti-Muslim, pro-Hindutva agenda, what do they intend on coming with.

Alright lets start with recongnizing Ahmedia's, giving rights to Baluchis, stopping Sunnis from bombing Shia's and while we are at it, we shud also talk about the 29% of Pakistanis living under poverty line.

Local Politics show how deep the oppressive Caste system runs in Hindu society.

Yep, the same way how all of the other Pakistani provinces are fighting with Punjab for more rights.

Dalits convert to Christianity and get killed by caste members.
http://www.worthynews.com/christian...threaten-massive-rape-and-killing-of-orphans/

And this is from a Pakistani whose courts go by the infamous hudood and blasphemy laws!! Give me a break.

It hurts me that there are those born who since birth are told that they are inferior, that they are untouchable. It hurts all of us to see these injustice taking place, and you should feel the same.

Pakistan as a policy has that a non muslims cannot hold the highest office of the nation - Presidency. It does hurt to see this injustics in Pakistan where other religious adherents are persecuted and not treated equal.

You are telling me that we are oppressed? Alhamdulillah, Praise be to Allah, I was exceedingly fortunate in being born free. Another empty baseless accusation on your behalf, fueled by ignorance and questions you cannot answer.

Waht ever, apart from the praises, honestly, I'm not saying that, frequent fire bombing of Shia mosques and killing of Shiites say that out loud and clear.
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000116.php

Once again, list them please. Is vishnu, ganesh, or the cow deity that roams your street telling you this? Substantiate.

I'm reporting this post to the mods, I can stoop low like you and start hailing your saviour, but I'll let it go this time.

We were on the topic of textiles, not steel.

This is what you posted, for which I gave the reply,

People will stop buying when they notice the outsourcing to slave labourers leads to unemployment in their own countries.

I dont see textiles there, do you??

 

[Awesome]

Documentaries are not god's word Asim. I can do a selective documentary as well.

These are videos OF the Indian government officers and officials cheering on the riots.

Vajpayee wouldve said, the riots wouldnot have happened if the train wasnt burnt. He wouldnt have justified the death of 2000 people. Big difference.

Riots should not happen. Thats what he should say. Anything else is justification. If you killed me, it would not be right for my brother to come n kill your brother.

Indian govt does the same. Per constitution there is no discrimination based on religion, race and color.

But even in Practice ever so often they CHOOSE to kill Minorities.

Do not lay a flame bait, I wrote what I meant, I did not brand you as something that you are not, so you should have the same courtesy.

Thats what you've chosen to hear.

Go back 3 pages, you would know why we blame Pakistan.

Blame without evidence is worth zilch. Will any of what you got fly in court?

Unlike your President, who has a group to "draw" a moderate image of Pakistan, we are not projecting any image about India.

Oh India's been at it for a longer time than we have. Remember Indira Gandhi? "We will destroy Pakistan through our media?"

Yes, Asim said Pak doesn't recognize the sects of Shia/Sunni and by law they are both, declared as just Muslims.

And I said, Indian govt does the same. Per constitution there is no discrimination based on religion, race and color.

You said, Yet caste system infests india.

And I said, Shia sunnis are not recognized by Pakistan govt, yet people are dying coz of that.

Now, why is it a flawed comparision and who is going in circles?

In Pakistan the criminals of sectarianism are outlawed groups. In India orchestrators of Muslim killing riots using Hindu fanatics are: The Government, The Police, The Chief Minister and his supporter the Prime Minister.