Boeing brings forward C-17 line closure

[sancho]

Main operational area of IAF, around 2000Km radius in and around India

Range of C17 with different payloads

Range of A400 with different payloads
(Range specs from manufacturer websites and brochures)


- C17 ideal for long range / high payload missions

- A400 covers all IAF operations at full payload till the Gulf region in the west, Singapore in the east, Kazakhstan in the north, the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal in the southern areas

- Paradrop role: C17 can drop 102 paratroopers / A400 116 paratroopers

- MEDIVAC role: C17 can carry 36 stretchers and 54 patients or medical personnel / A400 66 stretchers and 25 patients or medical personnel

- Mid air refueller role: C17 can't be used / A400 can carry up to 61t of fuel (IL78 ~86t, A330 111t), can refuel even helicopters

- Costs: C17 at reduced cost for India, $410 millions each, A400M for current customers between $170 and 200 millions. Procurement of 6 x optional C17s = $2.64 billion / A400 at $200 per A400 = at least 12 aircrafts

 

[Luftwaffe]

Dont you think Pakistan needs at least 3 or 4 of these transport planes?

Almost $800m for 4 of them why waste money on C-17s, currently our needs are fulfilled but for future PAF would be looking towards C-130J non stretch version and most likely Y-20 which could cost between 80-90m compared to 180-190m C-17s or 150m+ A-400.

 

[sancho]

Why not AN 70 instead of A 400. After all we have been using AN 32 in large numbers.

I man generally for any aircraft in the A400M class (because of the advantages for IAF), which basically includes the An 70, or the Kawasaki C2, but the An 70 is not fully developed or in production and now with the crisis, Russia will back out and it will not be available anytime soon. The C2 could be a great choice too, if the speculated capabilities are true, but the cost and most of all Japans export restrictions will be the main problem, which leaves only the A400 today.

 

[Agent_47]

@sancho you are missing out UAC/HAL Il-214 in this equation.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Definitely not! If they go for additional C17, they will fill the tactical side with MTA only, because they can't afford all of them. So if they want to increase operational capabilities by far and use the available funds in the most effective way. they add A400 instead of the optional C17s. But lets see if politics plays the important role in the procurement again, like it was in the first procurement. The production line is closing anyway, an order from us can't save jobs again, like it was in the first procurement, which opens the door for something more beneficiary for IAF requirements.

Never say never sir:

The Indian team has been mandated, rather, with showcasing the A400M to the IAF as a possible future platform, perhaps modified for Indian use, with Indian inputs. As it turns out, the IAF has been very impressed with the A400M, even if it does not immediately fit with their requirements. For instance, the IAF has been observing receive events pertaining to the A400M with a great degree of interest, including trials on unpaved runways (an area of persistent interest to the IAF), its recently demonstrated airfield assault capability at RAF Boscombe Down in the UK, and the first flight of the first Turkish A400M. A senior sources in the IAF says, "The A400M is a formidable aircraft. It is rapidly proving its capabilities across the spectrum. The IAF requires a highly serviceable and available transport fleet. Perhaps in the future the Airbus A400M will be something we can consider."


SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation



The door seems open at least. This was published in late 2013 after the IAF had received their first C-17s. Bear in mind I'm not talking about the next 2,3,4,5 or even 6 years but long term if the A400 impresses and the IAF feels a need then they will go for it, the question of budget does not arise as they have a huge capital acquisitions budget for the next 12+ years.


As for the C-17, the IAF are almost certain to get a follow on 6, the question is if the IAF pushes for more than this 6, possibly 8 units? Possibly 10? As it is the IAF has already started building the requisite infrastructure for basing the next C-17 SQD in Panagarh AFB in West Bengal alongside the infrastructure for the follow-on C-130Js.


Incidentally Panagarh AFB is set to become a major hub for the IAF with the C-17s, C-130Js, A330 MRTTs and 1 SQD or MKIs at least. In a few years this AFB will be transformed.

Dont you think Pakistan needs at least 3 or 4 of these transport planes?

The need for such a/c for a nation with such limited interests is minimal. C-17s are optimised for nations looking to project power, Pakistan doesn't look beyond her own borders.


More significantly is the cost of these beasts, 1-2 of these birds would swallow up the annual capex budget of the entire PAF.

 

[sancho]

@sancho you are missing out UAC/HAL Il-214 in this equation.

No, since it is only a medium class transporter, without comparable capabilities like the A400 or C17. MTA is aimed on similar roles like the C130Js, only without the special equipment for special ops missions.

Never say never sir:

The door seems open at least. This was published in late 2013 after the IAF had received their first C-17s.

I know the article, I gave it to you some weeks ago.

But showing interest in it is one thing, having the requirement is another one. IAF have a certain requirement of aircrafts with at least havy cargo capability, which currently is filled by the IL 76. The 10 x C17 will replace most of them and the only question is, will ge order addtional once to replace all IL 76s, or will we replace it with another aircraft that offers more advantages. When we already go with the more C17, there is no requirement left on the strategic sight, only on the tactical side and IAF won't replace An 32s with A400s, but with MTAs.

As for the C-17, the IAF are almost certain to get a follow on 6, the question is if the IAF pushes for more than this 6, possibly 8 units? Possibly 10? As it is the IAF has already started building the requisite infrastructure for basing the next C-17 SQD in Panagarh AFB in West Bengal alongside the infrastructure for the follow-on C-130Js.

There is no credible source of IAF that would confirm even the additional 6, let alone the 10 you dream of buddy and I don't see a budget that high being available for them anytime soon, which means that with the closing production line, it is more and more unlikely that we will order it after the elections. Btw, you are confusing the raise of the 2nd C130J squadron with any relation to another C17 squadron, but there isn't. Hindon is most likely only a stop gap solution for the current C17s, since the IL 76 is still operational in Chandigarh. When they are phased out, the C17s will take over their roles completely and maybe even their airbase, just like the IL 76s currently operated from Nagpur will sooner or later be replaced there.

But back to the A400, I just remembered another too missions where they would had been better than the C130J or C17. One the landing of the C130J at Daulat Beg Oldie airstrip in Ladakh, where the A400 could transport much better equipment, in higher numbers to such small and unpaved airstrips.
Or the humanitarian transport mission to the Philippines, where it could had transported higher loads, to the available small airstrips, without landing and probably without refueling in Port Blair.
This once again shows how the benefits of this versitile aircraft makes it operationally far superior than the C130Js or even the C17s. It simply can cover far more roles and do them much more effectively.

 

[Abingdonboy]

No, since it is only a medium class transporter, without comparable capabilities like the A400 or C17. MTA is aimed on similar roles like the C130Js, only without the special equipment for special ops missions.



I know the article, I gave it to you some weeks ago.

But showing interest in it is one thing, having the requirement is another one. IAF have a certain requirement of aircrafts with at least havy cargo capability, which currently is filled by the IL 76. The 10 x C17 will replace most of them and the only question is, will ge order addtional once to replace all IL 76s, or will we replace it with another aircraft that offers more advantages. When we already go with the more C17, there is no requirement left on the strategic sight, only on the tactical side and IAF won't replace An 32s with A400s, but with MTAs.




There is no credible source of IAF that would confirm even the additional 6, let alone the 10 you dream of buddy and I don't see a budget that high being available for them anytime soon, which means that with the closing production line, it is more and more unlikely that we will order it after the elections. Btw, you are confusing the raise of the 2nd C130J squadron with any relation to another C17 squadron, but there isn't. Hindon is most likely only a stop gap solution for the current C17s, since the IL 76 is still operational in Chandigarh. When they are phased out, the C17s will take over their roles completely and maybe even their airbase, just like the IL 76s currently operated from Nagpur will sooner or later be replaced there.

But back to the A400, I just remembered another too missions where they would had been better than the C130J or C17. One the landing of the C130J at Daulat Beg Oldie airstrip in Ladakh, where the A400 could transport much better equipment, in higher numbers to such small and unpaved airstrips.
Or the humanitarian transport mission to the Philippines, where it could had transported higher loads, to the available small airstrips, without landing and probably without refueling in Port Blair.
This once again shows how the benefits of this versitile aircraft makes it operationally far superior than the C130Js or even the C17s. It simply can cover far more roles and do them much more effectively.

Sir, I have a contact involved In the setting up of infrastructure for the C-130J and C-17 at the Pangarah AFB. He had previously worked on the infrastructure at Hindon to house both US birds. He tells me that Pangarah is being built up as a transport hub for the IAF and they are raising infrastructure to house C-17s along with C-130J. He assures me this for the next lot of C-17s because they are setting up SQD housing and facilities that would only be set up at a SQD base. Along with that they will soon start work on 2-3 other AFBs across India to allow them to house C-17s.

 

[shree835]

Dont you think Pakistan needs at least 3 or 4 of these transport planes?

Aur PAISE.....???

 

[sancho]

A400M undergoes tanker test campaign

An air-to-air refuelling test campaign using a Boeing F/A-18 Hornet (pictured) has proven the capability of Airbus Defence and Space’s A400M transport aircraft to act as an in-flight refuelling tanker.

The A400M performed 33 dry contacts over five flights. The transport also transferred 18.6t of fuel to a Hornet during 35 wet contacts, Airbus adds.

The A400M has a basic fuel capacity of 50.8t, and in its standard configuration has refuelling provisions. However, this capacity can be increased using extra cargo hold tanks, so the aircraft can be used as a tanker.

A400M undergoes tanker test campaign - 8/28/2014 - Flight Global


Another important point why India needs this aircraft, it would dramatically increase IAF's capabilities to have higher numbers of tankers available in war times, while these could be used for "normal" heavy transport roles in peace times too.

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

 

[ni8mare]

sancho can u list the type of transport aircraft acc to there class that iaf interested?

 

[C130]

A400M undergoes tanker test campaign - 8/28/2014 - Flight Global


Another important point why India needs this aircraft, it would dramatically increase IAF's capabilities to have higher numbers of tankers available in war times, while these could be used for "normal" heavy transport roles in peace times too.

remove the F-18 and add the Rafale and that get's you thinking right

beautiful aircraft and with a fitting name to surpass the Hercules.
but delays... cost overruns... etc etc...killed it's debut
this plane should of been designed and out the door late 90's early 00's
now you gotta wonder if it's truly worth buying.

 

[Abingdonboy]

A400M undergoes tanker test campaign - 8/28/2014 - Flight Global


Another important point why India needs this aircraft, it would dramatically increase IAF's capabilities to have higher numbers of tankers available in war times, while these could be used for "normal" heavy transport roles in peace times too.

With the IAF having a need upwards of 20 C-17s (so it is said) and it only looking like they will be getting 6 more (C-17s), 8 as an outside hope, they may have to look to the A400 to meet their needs for strategic lift.

 

[Sam Manekshaw]

remove the F-18 and add the Rafale and that get's you thinking right





beautiful aircraft and with a fitting name to surpass the Hercules.
but delays... cost overruns... etc etc...killed it's debut
this plane should of been designed and out the door late 90's early 00's
now you gotta wonder if it's truly worth buying.

See this is multipurpose aircraft...it will just complement the strategic, tactical and refueling aircraft......you can clearly see the induction of multirole fighters in IAF so i think they may look it as option too.

With the IAF having a need upwards of 20 C-17s (so it is said) and it only looking like they will be getting 6 more (C-17s), 8 as an outside hope, they may have to look to the A400 to meet their needs for strategic lift.

They will look them as a compliment aircraft to the strategic, tactical and refueling fleet...but yes there main role will be strategic airlifter.

 

[sancho]

sancho can u list the type of transport aircraft acc to there class that iaf interested?

It's difficult to list them in classes, as IAF is moving ahead with new classes and capabilities. In the past they used Avros for light to medium utility transports and AN 32 for tactical roles. Now even the Avro replacements (Airbus C295W or Alenia C27J) are directly in the class of the AN 32 or above, but still will be the low end of IAFs future fleet. Above them IAF will have C130Js and MTA for tactical roles and C17s for the strategic transports, while A330MRTTs will also be included in transport missions if required.

The A400 or similar class of aircrafts sadly didn't got too much attention by IAF so far.

remove the F-18 and add the Rafale and that get's you thinking right

Not really, since it can refuel all fighters in IAF's fleet, the main point is, that it offers the capability to be used as a tanker and that is a force multiplier for one of the biggest air forces in the world, that clearly requires more than 12 x tankers in war times.

beautiful aircraft and with a fitting name to surpass the Hercules.
but delays... cost overruns... etc etc...killed it's debut
this plane should of been designed and out the door late 90's early 00's
now you gotta wonder if it's truly worth buying.

Since the only thing that it has common with the C130 is the tactical capability, but the A400 offers far more than that, since it also offers a cost-effective solution for strategic operations. And the growing number of this class of aircrafts, with even US manufacturers considering to develop this C130 replacements in the same size of the A400, shows that the actual potential of this class lies in the future. The A400 is the first propper choice that is available now and by far the most versatile one, it surely will find it's customers over time. Hopefully IAF will be one of them!

With the IAF having a need upwards of 20 C-17s (so it is said) and it only looking like they will be getting 6 more (C-17s), 8 as an outside hope, they may have to look to the A400 to meet their needs for strategic lift.

They have the need of around 20 x heavy / strategic transport aircrafts, which doesn't necessarily means C17s. That's exactly why it would be far smarter to not go for additional C17s at high costs, but complement the fleet with actual force multipliers, that also have the capability of heavy / strategic transports and that's what A400, XC-2 or AN 70 offers too.