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Bill introduced to remove US from United Nations

Bill introduced to remove US from United Nations


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WASHINGTON (WCMH) — A proposed House Resolution would set the stage for the United States to remove itself from the United Nations.

The proposed “American Sovereignty Restoration Act of 2017” is sponsored by Rep. Mike Rogers (R-AL). It was introduced in the House on Jan. 3 and referred to the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, according to the Congress website.

The bill proposes that the United States terminate its membership in the UN, that the UN removes its headquarters from the US, and that the US stops participating in the World Health Organization. Read the full bill here.

Should it pass, the act would take effect two years after it is signed.


http://nbc4i.com/2017/01/22/bill-introduced-to-remove-us-from-united-nations/

If this passes...

Kiss goodbye to your precious veto's Israel.
 
Ok, so you just want to ignore mankind as a concept? That's going to go real well, especially as the world population is edging to 8 billion....



Says you. More botch, bitch, whine, whine about the UN. What is your alternative? How do you propose e.g. a lot of current aid streams develop and development programs proceed? Because that work IS the UN too. Who will do that work? You?

Why do you blame the UN, when - as you indicate - the P5 members are at war. That is their leadership chosing to do so. It is not the UN. And it won't be long untill China is in that basked too. I give it about 3 years.

The UN is the memberstates. If you say the UN failed, you say the membership failed. That's all of our countries. Sp., what are you going to do about it!

It just more bitching an no alternative.

The alternative is to continue the status quo, of every country looking out for its own interests. As is the case in all geopolitics.

Countries have a duty to look after their own citizens first. All that other stuff you are talking about, foreign aid streams and development programs, those are all secondary. And they still follow the principles of geopolitics. Foreign aid comes with either political strings (the West) or economic/resource strings (China) attached.

When it comes to individual human beings, idealism and charity are fantastic things. But when it comes to countries, and geopolitics, that is simply not the case.

I'll tell you what, when your country puts the needs of 1.3 billion Chinese (or indeed all the billions of people in the developing world) on the same level as the needs of their own citizens, then let's start talking about this vision of global humanity. But we both know that's never going to happen, it wouldn't even make sense.
 
The alternative is to continue the status quo, of every country looking out for its own interests. As is the case in all geopolitics.

Countries have a duty to look after their own citizens first. All that other stuff you are talking about, foreign aid streams and development programs, those are all secondary. And they still follow the principles of geopolitics. Foreign aid comes with either political strings (the West) or economic/resource strings (China) attached.

When it comes to individual human beings, idealism and charity are fantastic things. But when it comes to countries, and geopolitics, that is simply not the case.

I'll tell you what, when your country puts the needs of 1.3 billion Chinese (or indeed all the billions of people in the developing world) on the same level as the needs of their own citizens, then let's start talking about this vision of global humanity. But we both know that's never going to happen, it wouldn't even make sense.
Repeating 'aw, it's all just geopolitics as usual' (as if I don't know geopolitics and as if you would have to explain that to me ... how old are you again? are you old enought to have consciously experienced the cold war?) doesn't make things better. If you would see UN go, come up with a BETTER thing. A geopolitical status quo, in which its everyman for himself, isn't better.

Essentially, you've just tossed the day to day bulk of UN work that benefits real people out the window as 'secondary'. That's quite callous.

I'ld be quite happy to put the needs of 1.3 billion at the same level as our Dutch 17 million ;-) But seriously, coming from a small country, with hardly any natural resources and dependent on trade, one's perspective is quite different then when coming from a country like India, China, Russia or the US. Obviously. (Sorry, I'm not an American, that was the wrong tree to bark up against)

GettyImages-624425378.jpg
 
Repeating 'aw, it's all just geopolitics as usual' (as if I don't know geopolitics and as if you would have to explain that to me ... how old are you again? are you old enought to have consciously experienced the cold war?) doesn't make things better. If you would see UN go, come up with a BETTER thing. A geopolitical status quo, in which its everyman for himself, isn't better.

Essentially, you've just tossed the day to day bulk of UN work that benefits real people out the window as 'secondary'. That's quite callous.

I'ld be quite happy to put the needs of 1.3 billion at the same level as our Dutch 17 million ;-) But seriously, coming from a small country, with hardly any natural resources and dependent on trade, one's perspective is quite different then when coming from a country like India, China, Russia or the US. Obviously. (Sorry, I'm not an American, that was the wrong tree to bark up against)

GettyImages-624425378.jpg

Hmm so you are one of those "global citizens" are you? Makes sense since you are not wearing any flags.

If you would see UN go, come up with a BETTER thing. A geopolitical status quo, in which its everyman for himself, isn't better.

That's the point. There doesn't need to be a better thing to replace the UN, at all. The American members here, the Chinese members here, the Indian and Pakistani members here (basically everyone except you?) don't seem to have a high opinion of the UN. Yet another reason why Trump was elected.

I'ld be quite happy to put the needs of 1.3 billion at the same level as our Dutch 17 million ;-)

Then put your money where your mouth is. Let the Netherlands start splitting the tax money of their citizens across the entire world, especially the developing world. If one starts, maybe someone else will follow (highly unlikely).

But we all know that's not going to happen. They would never even consider it.
 
Then, clearly, you alternative to a UN is every state for itself. And no state answerable to any other (well, except maybe the ones holding a big club).
The global state of affairs is essentially anarchic. Have always been so despite the UN attempt.

Anarchy does not mean mindless violence and chaos. Anarchy -- at its core -- is about non-hierarchical relationships. No one is above another by way of institutionalized stratification (classes).

That does not mean I am so naive as to believe that there are no non-institutionalized forms of order and classes. Just as individuals are not the same, so are countries not the same. Some people are taller than others, some countries are more powerful than others. If the world is a basketball game, then tall people will have advantages and would be considered first choice draft picks. Likewise, security and strength have always been the first considerations for any country, powerful countries will naturally be seen as leaders in some ways.

Everyone have an emotionally and politically charged subject, so I will use Viet Nam as example.

The UN failed in Viet Nam. After WW II, the plan was to put Indochina under UN administration towards independence. It was a noble idea. Peaceful and workable.

The UN failed, not because the organization actually failed the execution of that plan, but failed in that once the Viet and Chinese communists and France were determined to deviate from what the war powers (US, Britain, China, and Russia) agreed upon, that organization was impotent in getting the course of the region back to the original plan. So in a manner of speaking, it was not so much the UN as an organization failed but that it was the UN as an idea that failed. In the end, no one answered to anyone. The powerful US was just as helpless as the weaker Viet Nam, helpless in the sense that everyone was beholden to themselves, as in self interests, and not to a higher authority, such as the UN or God. A civil war resulted in Viet Nam, and the world got closer to a nuclear showdown between nuclear superpowers.

The bottom line is that no one believed in the UN as a noble idea and believes in that idea powerful enough to sacrifice their own self interests. As long as there are discrete citizenry, American, Russian, Chinese, French, English, and so on, self interests will always override global interests.

Or to put it another way...

https://www.amazon.com/Rage-Nations-World-Twentieth-Century/dp/0802844553

An excellent read.

"Long enough" .... based on what and for what? Why not ten more/fewer years?
That the UN has been a factor in every country's foreign affairs is hardly a disqualifier: that's exactly what the UN was intended to be.
Take the idea of nuclear weapons non-proliferation. The UN failed to prevent India and Pakistan from becoming nuclear weapons states.

I am not saying that being a factor in every country's foreign affairs is a disqualifier by itself. You ARE correct, and I say that with emphasis. But I would have more enthusiastic support for the UN if somehow the organization, as a factor in every country's foreign affairs, is an effective player/factor/influence, especially on a major issue like nuclear weapons.

Now...If there are Indian and Pakistani objections, public posts or private thoughts, to what I said, then we have just seen the reason why the UN as an idea have been and will remain unworkable. To these respective citizenry, their nations' concerns are legitimate and, as they believed, powerful enough to override UN objections. But then that is exactly my point.

Assuming, for the moment, no one has a problem with the purposes of the UN (irrespective of the organisation):

<snipped>

Then how could states achieve this?

(The discussion is alltogether different if you don't agree with the purposes)
But I do agree with purposes stated.

The problem is -- look at the book -- nationalism.

I am a citizen of the world's most powerful country -- US. For a citizen of a weaker country, why should he/she support a global organization if he/she believes US-UN ideals are inappropriate, not merely inapplicable, for his/her country ?

Take the idea of 'international law', for example.

What law(s) should be made 'international' in scope, therefore, qualify for enforcement ?

Currently, China is giving Chinese version of the middle finger to the UN regarding the South China Sea. And not a single PDF Chinese member deviate from that defiant position. Am not saying that as a criticism towards the Chinese members of this forum. Am saying that as an example of how a nationalistic idea can become personally engaged and engaged to the point where that idea is unshakable in conviction.

A nationalist may believe in the nobility of UN principles as you cited, but only as long as the APPLICATION of those noble ideas do not conflict with his country's self interests.
 
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Hmm so you are one of those "global citizens" are you? Makes sense since you are not wearing any flags.
Assume whatever you like. You apparently feel a need to put people in a specific box.

That's the point. There doesn't need to be a better thing to replace the UN, at all. The American members here, the Chinese members here, the Indian and Pakistani members here (basically everyone except you?) don't seem to have a high opinion of the UN. Yet another reason why Trump was elected.
Indeed, every one except me ... hahaha. But that doesn't mean I'm not right. Someone needs to prod you lot to think beyond 'let's take it all down'. Yes, you Chinese and Indian billions too. It is not whether anyone has a high opinion about the UN. You really prefer a state where might is right and the middle finger rule? Really? Ask yourself seriously. Because, however flawed institutions invariably turn out, I think we can and should strive for better.


Then put your money where your mouth is. Let the Netherlands start splitting the tax money of their citizens across the entire world, especially the developing world. If one starts, maybe someone else will follow (highly unlikely).

But we all know that's not going to happen. They would never even consider it.
We're already splitting around the EU, which is more than China can say ;-)
And we = all 17 million of us - are already spreading our tax money around quite a bit.

The OECD's Development Assistance Committee members' total budget reached 132 billion dollars in 2015 and was contributed by the following countries
23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands – $5.81 billion
We rank 7th here

The OECD also lists Development Assistance Committee members by the amount of ODA they spend as a percentage of their gross national income
23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands – 0.76%
We rank 5th here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html

Foreign aid expenditure of the Bric countries increased from about $1.5bn in 2005 to approximately $4.2bn in 2011.
BRIC=Brazil, Russia, India, China.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ign-aid-which-countries-are-the-most-generous

YOU (all 1.3 billion of you) put your money where your mouth is.
 
Indeed, every one except me ... hahaha. But that doesn't mean I'm not right.

That is some serious ego right there. :lol:

You really prefer a state where might is right and the middle finger rule? Really? Ask yourself seriously. Because, however flawed institutions invariably turn out, I think we can and should strive for better.

That is how the world works. If you are as old as you claim you should have known that.

We're already splitting around the EU, which is more than China can say ;-)
And we = all 17 million of us - are already spreading our tax money around quite a bit.

The OECD's Development Assistance Committee members' total budget reached 132 billion dollars in 2015 and was contributed by the following countries
23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands – $5.81 billion
We rank 7th here

The OECD also lists Development Assistance Committee members by the amount of ODA they spend as a percentage of their gross national income
23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png
Netherlands – 0.76%
We rank 5th here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html

Foreign aid expenditure of the Bric countries increased from about $1.5bn in 2005 to approximately $4.2bn in 2011.
BRIC=Brazil, Russia, India, China.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ign-aid-which-countries-are-the-most-generous

YOU put your money where your mouth is.

Wow, rich developed European countries, spreading the wealth to other rich European countries. While millions are starving to death around the world.

Real global citizen right there. And by that I mean Geert Wilders.
 
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We do not need the UN to 'rule the world'.

In many ways, the UN was actually a constraint on US rise to global domination. With the UN, the US is just a global hegemony. With the UN, not under the UN, the US had self imposed responsibilities, much of them had to do with taking care of issues that are not of US interests. Take the Security Council, for one example. Just as we veto-ed, so have others veto-ed.

We do not need the UN in order to take care of allies who would be our allies due to shared interests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_of_Democracies
http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/publications/journal/23_1/roundtable/002

US withdrawal from the UN would mean the collapse of the UN.

Am all for this.

Will never happen though, This particular bill has been proposed consistently since the Bush Administration.

For everyone else, as has been stated, bills that people know will never pass have been proposed all the time. It isn't about getting them passed, its about pleasing the constituency.
 
...prefer a state where might is right and the middle finger rule?
God is THE Almighty. His Might is unchallenged, therefore, whatever He says pretty much goes.

Am not introducing religion into this debate, only to illustrate a point that inside a country, the ruling authority with its undisputed might make many rights. Expand this to the international order and we see that the UN did not do away with this perception but actually formalized it.
 
Says you. More botch, bitch, whine, whine about the UN. What is your alternative? How do you propose e.g. a lot of current aid streams develop and development programs proceed? Because that work IS the UN too. Who will do that work? You?
My alternative -- you may not like it.

First...The primary concerns for the international order have ALWAYS been stability and order. Not law and order, but stability and order.

Now...My alternative to the UN...

Let regional powers lead regional alliances in their own spheres of influence to achieve local stability and order.

I know it sounds a lot like going back to the Cold War ways of getting and maintaining stability and order, but think about it for a moment. For both the Western and Soviet alliances, the respective supreme powers successfully kept lesser powers in check for most of the time.

The difference now is that since Marxism/communism have been thoroughly discredited as a viable functioning state system, discrete nationalistic self interests and shared transnational interests emerged. Self interests may conflict, but they can, and often do, have commonalities. Let the regional powers, great and lesser, work out their differences and shared interests. If conflicts of interests deteriorates down to warfare, it is no different than the past and current status between countries. It would be unfortunate, but the UN failed its goal of reducing armed conflicts in lieu of compromises.

https://sites.tufts.edu/jha/archives/66

The UN failed and a regional alliance, ECOWAS, had to take the reigns in Africa.

Would Russia and China go to war for supremacy in Asia ? Possibly, but then how is this speculation any less dangerous than a past where the Soviet Union and China were actually hostile to each other ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split
The split was primarily caused because of two main factors, differing national interests and various interpretations of communist ideology.
We can rule out different interpretations of Marxism/communism as a cause for a Russo-Sino conflict for this future.

What is left to serve as causes for conflicts ? Capitalism ? Influences to other countries in Asia ? Oil ? Women ?

Let us take the South China Sea dispute...

I have always challenged the PDF Chinese over this. But that is under the current status where UN and assorted international treaties and norms are in effect.

If we do away with the UN, which could void and/or modify many international treaties and norms that were created under UN auspices and approval, and let regional powers settle the SCS disputes, if everyone finally agrees that the SCS belongs to China, I would have no problems conceding the issue to China.

Likewise, if the US claims the Gulf of Mexico and if the local powers approves, the rest of the world would have to concede the issue to the US.

This speculative future would be no less threatening to stability and order than the current situation we are in.

Why do you blame the UN,...
It is not so much 'blame' as in attributing causes, rather, it is about pointing out where/how the UN failed.

If you refuse to save a drowning man, that does not mean you caused his death. Maybe you refused because you do not know how to swim or that the man is too large for you to handle. I do not think this is what Mr. Dragon meant.
 
UN is useless organization, it should be devolved.

With respect to security / war related issues, the UN may be useless since some have veto powers and they use it according to their own interests.

But if we look at humanitarian issues, UN has and had an impact and this is something which the world needs especially the increasing nature of disasters we are seeing.
 
isnt US going the same path as Nazi Germany...??

More like pre 90s Switzerland. Switzerland was among the last members in the developed world to even join the UN.

This would be a severe blow to the UN if at all it happens.
 
I haven't said much about this, have I? You should do the same.

Bro, you are not Indian, dont act like one.

Because that way you make a fool out of yourself.

Have a good day :)
 

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