Basic Training?

[Keysersoze]

AK as in Avtomat Kalashnikova or Kalashnikov???

 

[blain2]

Commonality of ammuntion? I thought that the G3 used Nato standard 7.62 (7.62x51)and the Chinese weapon used the Russian standard. (7.62x39)?
Have they retooled the Ak's in Pak service?

May require further checking-up but based on what I know, both rifles use 7.62x51 produced by POF. 51mm vs 39mm is just the length of the cartridge casing so its not that much of a difference. The round is of the exact same size.

 

[Keysersoze]

May require further checking-up but based on what I know, both rifles use 7.62x51 produced by POF. 51mm vs 39mm is just the length of the cartridge casing so its not that much of a difference. The round is of the exact same size.

Well finally back to the thread.....

Well it would be interesting to know if they do. It would help the logistical situation no end. I wonder how it would affect the performance of the rifle though......

 

[Aryan]

I know it for a fact that a lot of AK-47 were purchased by CIA from Egypt for supply to the Afghan Mujahideen. I asked an ex class mate who was an ordinance officer, the reply was that AK-47; besides being an excellent assault weapon, makes a good noise which was liked by the Mujahideen and they preferred it over any other weapon such as M-16 of G3. Another favouite was Uzi sub machine gun, even though Israeli, Mujahideen loved it!

Standard issue of PA has been G3 since the 70's.

Ak-47s came from all over; Egypt, captured Israeli stocks, and later the Chinese themselves.

I think there were a couple of other reasons as to why AK-47s were purchased for the Afghan Mujahideen.

a) The Afghan Army and the Russians used the same, thus commonality in ammunition as well as ease of use of captured weapons.

b) The Ak-47 did not give away outside support to the Mujahideen as would G-3 (Pakistan made it) etc. I do not think that M-16 etc. were even considered since they were too expensive and cumbersom to maintain in the dusty, rugged environments of Afghanistan.

c) I am not sure if Uzi was ever used by Afghans...I could be wrong but have never seen one in the hands of an Afghan. The Isrealis actually shipped (via CIA) large numbers of captured AK-47s and other small arms of Soviet origin that they had captured in the previous wars.

The Muj never were assigned Uzis as far as I'm aware, it would have tied the Israelis directly to the war, and besides, they would have been totally impractical. The whole 'the Israelis armed the Mujahideen' is an exaggerated myth. While they did provide some assistance, most of the weaponry employed by the Mujahideen came from elsewhere - China, Egypt, captured Russian stocks.

Although during the early stages of the war the standard soviet issue rifle was the AK-47, it was quickly replaced by the newer AK-74M which fired the 5.45x39mm round.

AK-47s were the most logical choice, they did the job and were relatively cheap. Other rifles employed for the mujahideen included Enfields, captured AK-74M, anything they could get hold of.

May require further checking-up but based on what I know, both rifles use 7.62x51 produced by POF. 51mm vs 39mm is just the length of the cartridge casing so its not that much of a difference. The round is of the exact same size.

Not possible, one is nearly double the size of the other. I had some comparative pictures of the two rounds on my laptop, but I can't find them.

 

[Keysersoze]

In that case it might cause logistical problems with ammuntion supply in time of conflict. (having two round types)

Actually It's a win win situation in regards to the choice of rifle anyway. The G3 and AK are both excellent weapons. Have the weapons filtered down to all units? The reason I ask is that whenever I went to Pak, I saw such a mixture of small arms.

As another member asked earlier what's the average loadout (weapons wise) for a platoon??

 

[sparten]

Okay final answer on the whole G-3/Ak-47 Type -56 issue. Standard army issue rifle G-3 A3. All units military and paramilitary use it.

Type-56 issued only to whichever units are fighting in FCNA (Force Command Northern Areas). The other two corps who carry out operations in Kashmir are X and XXX corps, both use G-3.

So logistical problems are not there since only 1 Corps HQ actually uses the different rifle.

Secondly yes, they do use the smaller less powerful Sov round there. The reason is simple at anything below -20 C the G-3 refuse to fire, normal winter time operating temps in NA is -50 C or less, summer -30 C. There have been a lot of complaints about the Ak-56, it range and accuracy are issues. Which is why the Stery Aug might replace it for FCNA.

As for replacement of the service rifle well I hacve not heard anthing that indicates it might happen. The army has always peferred the 7.62 x 51 (indeed at one time we were the only major army still supporting it) and the army feels that events in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as our own experience in kashmir vs the lalas's INSAS (in X and XXX corps sectors) have vindicated our confidence in that round. Indeed the talk now from what I have heard is of having the bigger and faster round especially with the poliferation of body armour which can reliably stop rifle rounds. As a result there are going to be more AP rounds per mag (maybe as high as 1 in 3). There are even suggestions to switch to AP only.

As for body armour, the PA has used that since the 1970's but our doctrine has always felt that body armour is more useful in built up areas rather then in the field where it actually might hinder taking cover,

 

[sword9]

Secondly yes, they do use the smaller less powerful Sov round there. The reason is simple at anything below -20 C the G-3 refuse to fire,

Its not the weapon but the user who could be at fault, by using the wrong gun oil in cold climate conditions. The ammo could be faulty too, sime most ammo is made to operate at -50 to +54 degrees centigrade.

The army has always peferred the 7.62 x 51 (indeed at one time we were the only major army still supporting it) and the army feels that events in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as our own experience in kashmir vs the

lalas's INSAS

(in X and XXX corps sectors) have vindicated our confidence in that round.

Intersting point, What does the experience say?

 

[Keysersoze]

Its not the weapon but the user who could be at fault, by using the wrong gun oil in cold climate conditions. The ammo could be faulty too, sime most ammo is made to operate at -50 to +54 degrees centigrade.


Intersting point, What does the experience say?

I have to agree with sword's comments regarding weapon maintenance and ammo issues. However sometimes other factors such as the type of materials used in the weapon can differ (for numerous reasons) and that can affect the weapon in extreme situations.

As for the ammo type there are pro's and con's to both types of ammo. 7.62 will always stop a target in his/her tracks with one shot (body armour withstanding) However since most firefights involve suppression fire (which expends large amounts of ammuniton) the 5.56 will mean you can carry more and win the firefight. The Nato green tip 5.56 is designed to penetrate body armour. However it can cause problems if the target is not wearing body armour (There is evidence of this from the Operation Restore hope aka Black Hawk down) So I guess it depends on what the best option is for the requirements.

 

[blain2]

I have to agree with sword's comments regarding weapon maintenance and ammo issues. However sometimes other factors such as the type of materials used in the weapon can differ (for numerous reasons) and that can affect the weapon in extreme situations.

The problem encountered on Siachen is not something unique to the Pakistani Army and as such can not be attributed to maintenance and cleaning of the weapons...G-3 was found to be more susceptible to this extreme weather in contrast to the Type-56. This was the same reason that the IA also switched to AK-47 instead of their SLR (FN FAL 7.62) on the glacier. Even now when troops are not using their rifles, the action mechanism is kept under wrap in order to keep it from being impacted by the extreme cold...the gun lubricant/oil too was found to be inappropriate and changed (I suspect that was due to issues related with oil viscosity). The same problem exists with other weapons like LMGs/HMGs etc.

 

[blain2]

Not possible, one is nearly double the size of the other. I had some comparative pictures of the two rounds on my laptop, but I can't find them.

No way that one round is that much bigger than the other. There is a difference of about 10mm in the casing of the rounds.

 

[Keysersoze]

The problem encountered on Siachen is not something unique to the Pakistani Army and as such can not be attributed to maintenance and cleaning of the weapons...G-3 was found to be more susceptible to this extreme weather in contrast to the Type-56. This was the same reason that the IA also switched to AK-47 instead of their SLR (FN FAL 7.62) on the glacier. Even now when troops are not using their rifles, the action mechanism is kept under wrap in order to keep it from being impacted by the extreme cold...the gun lubricant/oil too was found to be inappropriate and changed (I suspect that was due to issues related with oil viscosity). The same problem exists with other weapons like LMGs/HMGs etc.

Well the thing is that certain forces are trained to operate in extreme cold conditions (Scandinavian and Canadian forces for example.) I know the oil and type of mechanism does change. for these conditions. I will post a guide for cold weather warfare.

As a quick aside the coldest I have been out has been -32 and that was damn cold!

 

[Keysersoze]

Section II. INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS AND INSTRUMENTS
6-3. Effects of Northern Conditions on Weapons and Instruments
The year-round necessity for supervised care, cleaning, and maintenance cannot be overstressed. Effects of cold weather on various types of weapons are covered in detail in appendix D.

6-4. Care, Cleaning, and Maintenance
a. Weapons will function under extreme conditions, provided they are properly maintained. Normal lubricants thicken in cold weather and stoppages or sluggish actions of firearms will result. DURING THE WINTER, WEAPONS MUST BE STRIPPED COMPLETELY AND CLEANED WITH A DRY-CLEANING
SOLVENT TO REMOVE ALL LUBRICANTS AND RUST PREVENTION COMPOUND. The prescribed application of special northern oils should then be made.
These lubricants will provide proper lubrication during the winter and help minimize the freezing of snow and ice on and in weapons.
b. Soldiers must insure that snow and ice do not get into the working parts, sights, or barrels of weapons. Even a small amount of ice or snow may cause malfunction of the weapons. Muzzle and breech covers should be used. Before firing, the weapon must be examined carefully, especially the barrel, which may be blocked with ice or snow and will burst when fired. Snow on the outside, if not removed, may drop into the breech and later form ice, causing malfunctioning of the weapon.
c. Condensation forms on weapons when they are taken from the extreme cold into any type of heated shelter. This condensation is often referred to as “sweating.” For this reason weapons should be placed near or at the floor level where the temperature will be lower and there will be less condensation. Every effort must be made to remove condensation as soon as possible or the film will freeze when the weapons are subsequently taken into the cold. The ice so formed may seriously affect the operation of the weapon unless it is manually operated until the moisture freezes. This prevents the parts from freezing together and allows continued operation. If security conditions permit weapons should be left outdoors, in racks or unheated shelter.
d. When weapons are taken into a heated shelter, “sweating” may continue for as long as 1 hour. When time is available, men should wait 1 hour and then remove all condensation and clean the weapon.
e. During the freezeup and breakup seasons, the danger of rust and corrosion is at its greatest. In the winter the lack of moisture in the air decreases this danger, but the problem of ice and snow will necessitate frequent checking and cleaning of weapons.
f. Should parts of a weapon become frozen, warm them slightly and move them gradually until unfrozen. If the weapon cannot be warmed, all visible ice and snow should be removed and parts moved gradually until action is restored. Ice in the barrel can be removed with warm (standard issue) gun oil if slow warming is not possible.
g. When firing, do not let the hot parts of the weapon come in contact with the snow. The snow will melt and, on cooling, form ice. When changing barrels, do not lay them on the snow; rapid cooling may warp them.
h. Snow, even of the lightest variety, has a tremendous smothering effect on fragmenting munitions. Even a few inches of light snow can drastically affect the lethality of this type munition. Understanding this, commanders must insure that antipersonnel mine directional paths are cleared in snow to prevent loss of velocity to fragments and deflection of fragments by snow. Grenadiers should always attempt to obtain airbursts by placing fire on the brush in the target area rather than in the snow. Indirect fire weapons should make maximum use of airbursts provided by time and proximity fuzes.

6-5. Ammunition
Extreme cold does not materially affect the accuracy of weapons nor the performance of small arms ammunition. Ammunition should be kept at the same temperature as the weapon. It should be carried in the bandoleers and the additional ammunition placed in the pockets of the outer garment and in the rucksack. Ammunition clips, and magazines must be cleaned of all oil and preservative and must be checked frequently; all ice, snow, and condensation
should be removed. Cartridge containers, magazines, and ammunition drums must be kept closed in order to prevent the formation of rust or ice.
a. Ammunition should be stored in its original container, raised off the ground, and covered with a tarpaulin. Ammunition so stored should be suitably marked in order to locate and identify it in the event it becomes covered with snow.
b. Resupply of ammunition may be restricted. All personnel must be made aware of the necessity for ammunition economy and fire discipline. Loaded clips, magazines, or single rounds dropped into the snow are quickly lost; therefore, careful handling of ammunition is essential.

 

[Keysersoze]

Actually I will share this site, as it is a great resource for training manuals.

http://www.backcountrysurvival.com/

 

[blain2]

Well the thing is that certain forces are trained to operate in extreme cold conditions (Scandinavian and Canadian forces for example.) I know the oil and type of mechanism does change. for these conditions. I will post a guide for cold weather warfare.

As a quick aside the coldest I have been out has been -32 and that was damn cold!

Keyser,

Just a point. The kind of challenges that PA and IA have faced at Siachen, Scandinavians and Canadians could not even dream about it....the HA warfare schools on both sides of the IB are recognised as the best in the world and problems with rifles and equipment have happened due to the extreme (I mean it in the absolute sense of the word) climatic conditions that exist over there.

The guide that you have quoted from actually is applicable to the Forces deployed in the Northern areas (as in the Pakistani Forces under the FCNA and Kargil etc)....currently none of the US or European forces operate above 16000 ft (whereas we have positions all the way up to 22000 ft....this is uncharted territory as the temps dip to -50 degrees and the positions and weapons are sustained in this type of env. for months at a time.)

The problems with G-3 were not one-off issues with maint. of the weapon.

 

[Keysersoze]

Keyser,

Just a point. The kind of challenges that PA and IA have faced at Siachen, Scandinavians and Canadians could not even dream about it....the HA warfare schools on both sides of the IB are recognised as the best in the world and problems with rifles and equipment have happened due to the extreme (I mean it in the absolute sense of the word) climatic conditions that exist over there.

The guide that you have quoted from actually is applicable to the Forces deployed in the Northern areas (as in the Pakistani Forces under the FCNA and Kargil etc)....currently none of the US or European forces operate above 16000 ft (whereas we have positions all the way up to 22000 ft....this is uncharted territory as the temps dip to -50 degrees and the positions and weapons are sustained in this type of env. for months at a time.)

The problems with G-3 were not one-off issues with maint. of the weapon.

I appreciate that Blain. However I am a firm believer in "borrowing" Ideas and learning from other similar scenarios or techniques. (For example the Finns have a great deal of experience with extreme cold operations in the Lapland area. at similar temps to the ones you mention) Of course there are other issues (altitude for example) which I can check with some HA mountaineers that I know. I am just throwing some ideas out there for discussion