Bad conditions for Muslims in India

[Nemesis]

Does it really matter what Pakistanis think about the condition of Indian muslims?

Oh and one other thing. A Pakistani citizen dissing India because of her poverty? Absolutely hilarious. You do realise that Pakistan is a poorer nation than India? Forget absolute numbers here, the fact remains that despite having a lesser population and a far less land mass to develop, an average Pakistani is poorer than an average Indian. That is a damning statistic.

Pakistani muslims have always lived in better conditions

Better conditions? Is that why Pakistan is lower than India on the Human development index?

- even today in fact - due to more evenly distributed wealth and better conditions regarding poverty.

Even distribution of wealth!! What crock! Tell that to the millions in your countryside under the domination of a few feudals. You have no middle class to speak of either.

Per capita figure is barely a measure for poverty because of out liers.

Perhaps.

If india's overall Per Capita figure is higher, why is more proportion of indian population is in poverty? 800 million indians live on 50 cents or less a day.

800 million? Did you just make up that statistic?

The problem is that the really rich get counted here, and they bring up these numbers.

Sure, but that happens in Pakistan as well.

 

[SMC]

Oh and one other thing. A Pakistani citizen dissing India because of her poverty? Absolutely hilarious. You do realise that Pakistan is a poorer nation than India?

Poorer nation? Yes. People on average poorer? No.

Forget absolute numbers here, the fact remains that despite having a lesser population and a far less land mass to develop, an average Pakistani is poorer than an average Indian. That is a damning statistic.

Son, where did you come up with that "statistic"? Most indians will admit that an average indian is poorer than an average Pakistani. The poverty figures suggest that. Do not try to make up your own statistics.

Better conditions? Is that why Pakistan is lower than India on the Human development index?

It takes into account few other things than poverty. Literacy is taken into consideration, which india is slightly ahead it. Same with GDP per capita, which india is slightly ahead in, but is something pulled up by the riches. If you're talking about poverty, Pakistan is ahead.

Even distribution of wealth!! What crock! Tell that to the millions in your countryside under the domination of a few feudals. You have no middle class to speak of either.

Do you even know what I am saying? I said BETTER distribution of wealth. You have plenty of billionaires and millionaires propping up your per capita figures. Check out the statistic below.

800 million? Did you just make up that statistic?

Reclusive Adiga wins Booker for dark tale | Reuters. I am astonished at how many indians don't know the ground realities of their country, acting as if their country is some superpower. LOL

Sure, but that happens in Pakistan as well.

Not as much. Read the GINI coefficient for Pakistan. It's far better than India's.

 

[Trisonics]

For the "n"th time why are Pakistanis so interested in Indian Muslims?

One, they chose not to be part of Pakistan, does that still hurt the sentiments of Pakistanis?

Two, Lets analyze it this way, 10 years from now with India's growth, for whom will you define "bad conditions", for Muslims in India or in Pakistan?

Three, Look at Pakistan's problem related to ethincites, wow so much discrimination and fights between themselves and they point fingers at India.

Fourth, look at their political structure, again just fighting amongst themselves for power has left a country with a lot of potential generating all the wrong news?
Document - Pakistan: Human rights crisis in Karachi | Amnesty International

Fifth, sadly, a country that could have done so well for many reasons is now under turmoil, with bomb blasts, drone attack(on civilians also) and rogue status

Sixth, for a proud Muslim nation, its record for looking after its people is not that great either. Starting right from the Indian Muslims who migrated. They were called Muhajirs (immigrants), Violence against Bangaldeshis and now Baluch.

Indian Muslims obviously have faced problems, no Indian denies that, but they have also done well and Pakistanis will never credit those.
There are large number of people who are homeless and hungry, India does not dissect them as "Muslims", "Hindus", etc..we see them as Indians that need help (hard for some to understand) but we have a plan a vision and working towards it!!!!

Summary: people living in Glass Houses should not be throwing stones, get your house in order and then come back to debate

 

[scrumpy]

One of the major ticking human desasters in India is their cast system

They do every thing based on cast of a person, cast comes into factor in education
universities , army , and navy ....

A lower cast person , cannot get educated , so they can't earn as much as the higher cast ppl . Also a lower cast person sometimes cannot get into universities and get higer paying jobs

How can a lower cast person , who makes 5 rupees a day , send his children to rich schools India ?? Where it costs 1000 rupee / day etc or more

I do not intend on derailing the topic here. However I do believe that a clarification in required on this point.

Apart from a few colleges which are considered minority institutions, there exists a form of positive discrimination in the form of reserved spots(50%) in colleges within India. This is in place to ensure that people from the lower strata do not fall further behind because of a lack of education. There was a recent announcement that muslims from the backword castes(?) would be included within these reservations meant for backward castes.

Reservation in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As regards to fees. At least while I was studying in an Engineering college, fees were tightly regulated by the government to ensure that these were not out of reach of the common man. This was done so that high fees were not used as a tool to ensure that only people from a certain strata could not take advantage of it.

There is no discrimination on selection of members to the armed forces on the basis of their caste or religion.

The lower casts as well as other minorities are all politically empowered and are quiet vocal. The democratic system ensures that all such and any such overt or covert discrimination cannot function atleast within government organisations.

I do agree that there is still discrimination within society and we need to do more. However things are visibly changing and the rate of such change is only accelerating.

Things are not as bad as you think.

 

[RiazHaq]

According to the report, produced by a committee led by a former Indian chief justice, Rajender Sachar, Muslims were now worse off than the Dalit caste, or those called untouchables. Some 52% of Muslim men were unemployed, compared with 47% of Dalit men. Among Muslim women, 91% were unemployed, compared with 77% of Dalit women. Almost half of Muslims over the age of 46 couldn’t read or write. While making up 11% of the population, Muslims accounted for 40% of India’s prison population. Meanwhile, they held less than 5% of government jobs.

Haq's Musings: Muslims--India's New Untouchables

 

[Bhaarat]

Which is a diversion, because that is what not only muslims in india but a good portion of indian population lacks. The overall picture of muslims in india is worse by some margin than Pakistan's.

Now, you are exaggarating. Sure, the condition of muslims is worse by Indian standards. But they are certainly better of than avg Pakistani, and not to talk of the fastingly vanishing minorities of Pakistan.

But you have said correctly that its not just muslims, many other Indians also are lacking. Therefore, that makes it clear that it is not an institutional injustice but merely a problem faced by most developing countries of the world. Hopefully, we will overcome all such problems and may our population live in peace, prosperity and security. Pray for us.

 

[SMC]

Now, you are exaggarating. Sure, the condition of muslims is worse by Indian standards. But they are certainly better of than avg Pakistani, and not to talk of the fastingly vanishing minorities of Pakistan.

But you have said correctly that its not just muslims, many other Indians also are lacking. Therefore, that makes it clear that it is not an institutional injustice but merely a problem faced by most developing countries of the world. Hopefully, we will overcome all such problems and may our population live in peace, prosperity and security. Pray for us.

That's something indians falsely believe in. I have discussed it previously so I will not do it again.

 

[rajeev]

Burn ur economy states, if people living like that

India's GDP / capita on PPP terms : 2972$
So, an Indian Muslim would earn : 2823$

Pakistan's GDP/capita on PPP terms: 2644$

Mind you, these numbers are from 2008. In 2009, Indian economy has grown somewhere between 6.5-7%, whereas Pakistan economy has grown between 1-2%. So against the difference has increased.

An Indian Muslim is far better living in India economically speaking than living in Pakistan besides having friendly TTP.

So these are pictures that you could find about India, think about pictures I could for a country who income is less than 150$/capita than India's. But I am not like you finding enjoyment in some one else's misery. It your mindset and so as well may enjoy pictures and charm yourself a bit more!

 

[SMC]

Per capita income = per capita GDP? LOL. Anyways, rest of your post I have discussed and you basically posted same thing all over again.

 

[rajeev]

LMFAO. A few things.

1. Indian government itself said that the majority of indian muslims lived in poverty - even by indian standards. I do not have the article but I remember reading this somewhere distinctly.

Thanks for following typical Pakistani line - "We have proof but we will show you only at the appropriate time". Thanks guys! We do trust you as much as the rest of the world in your words

2. Per capita figure is barely a measure for poverty because of out liers. If india's overall Per Capita figure is higher, why is more proportion of indian population is in poverty? 800 million indians live on 50 cents or less a day. The problem is that the really rich get counted here, and they bring up these numbers.

I didnt realize that you are bad in mathematics. By that account, if I choose a country for example Somalia where 99.99% of the people who earn less than 50 cents a day but since their total population is less than all the poor in Pakistan, according to your own theory, they are richer than Pakistan.

But how can I challenge logic with you! That should extremely hard!

Pakistani muslims have always lived in better conditions - even today in fact - due to more evenly distributed wealth and better conditions regarding poverty.

Yes, they are probably better living in india because they have job and everything there. But an average indian muslims is quite far behind in terms of living conditions.

Now of course you will talk about TTP, but let's not forget indian state sanctioned terrorism against muslims, ala BJP, Shiv Sena, RSS, VHP, and indian army itself in Kashmir.

Yes, we have RSS and VHP that do crazy religious stuff and you have TTP that bombs innocent people and even mosques.

We have indian army in Kashmir torturing as per you and you have Pakistani army that carpet bombings its own cities.

I do see the point! Thanks!

 

[SMC]

Thanks for following typical Pakistani line - "We have proof but we will show you only at the appropriate time". Thanks guys! We do trust you as much as the rest of the world in your words

hey, it's something indian government said itself. You should know about it.

I didnt realize that you are bad in mathematics. By that account, if I choose a country for example Somalia where 99.99% of the people who earn less than 50 cents a day but since their total population is less than all the poor in Pakistan, according to your own theory, they are richer than Pakistan.

But how can I challenge logic with you! That should extremely hard!

Poor comeback. With 800 million people, I was merely showing the proportion of indians living in poverty. Indian government's definition of poverty is very low, thus you get figures like 25%, etc. You took my post out of context and made it to suit yourself. Try better next time. This is all about proportions, not overall number living in x conditions.

Yes, we have RSS and VHP that do crazy religious stuff and you have TTP that bombs innocent people and even mosques.

We have indian army in Kashmir torturing as per you and you have Pakistani army that carpet bombings its own cities.

I do see the point! Thanks!

Hey, at least PA is not killing innocent people. Additionally, all this terrorism against muslims in india is state sponsered, unlike in Pakistan.

 

[rajeev]

I think its not right to , make fun of unfortunate ppl with images its really is sad situation for these folks - may their problems be solved , every human deserves dignity and honourable life

Thanks!

Babri Masjid was very sad incident in indian history perhaps bigger them mumbai attacks

Yes Babri Masjid is a sad incident. But Mumbai incident is far more traggic because it was perpetuated by Santa and Banta Singh (aka Amar Singh) of Orange Band of Hyderbadi Mujaheeden who speak Marathi.

One of the major ticking human desasters in India is their cast system

They do every thing based on cast of a person, cast comes into factor in education
universities , army , and navy ....

Thanks I didnot realize it. Probably, you had first hand knowledge visiting India. Thanks though that shows your intellect.

A lower cast person , cannot get educated , so they can't earn as much as the higher cast ppl . Also a lower cast person sometimes cannot get into universities and get higer paying jobs

How can a lower cast person , who makes 5 rupees a day , send his children to rich schools India ?? Where it costs 1000 rupee / day etc or more

Unlike in your country where madrassa is only form of education for the poor, India has free education until Xth grade.

So the divide keep growning , I mean for example , Indian IT sector , its on part with the US or Europen now , but you go 3 blocks away and you have slums of poverty

Places where ppl dig thru ***** daily to make aliving and that is sad sad sad situation

That is true but that are realities of poor India. It does not sound logical to destory IT sector to keep pace with poor though the otherway round is preferable to Indians.

Indian farmers , are also suffering , all the cash is going to weapnry , and building navies and airforce ? - while the farmers are struggling lcoally

This is why there have tension in Assan area where ppl are fed up , Kashmir was never Indian part to begin with but even other places are getting tired of the discrimiation

Didnt realize it is an advice from a citizen of a country that spends 4.5% of GDP on defense to another country's citizen whose country spends 2.3% of GDP on defense.

All the money is going to the SUPER RICH high class provinces/states in India

So there is a huge internal problem they have probbly 10 times bigger then anything they faced in war

Not to mention their population keeps expanding and they cannot sustain thing , and all it takes is 1-2 groups in india to declare , enough is enough and next thing you know Nuclear , weapons are at risk in India

I didnt realize so many Pakistanis feel that some states in India grow faster than rest of states, especially when from 1950-1970's the West Pakistan spent just 40% of the money on East Pakistan even though there were more population in East Paskistan or like in today's Pakistan where the entire state of Balochistan is provided a budget comparable to a city of Islamabad. So much for the even handedness and when Balochis cry that they are unfairly treated blame it on India.

When a nuclear reactor's resource is misused by disgrunted employee Pakistan is bothered, but when the whole world is worried whether Pakistan's nuclear weapons will be taken over by TTP, Pakistan feels like news are biased. Funny comparison though!

 

[scrumpy]

Instead of comparing GDP now, isn't it better to see the growth rates. No one can deny that such growth will create opportunities for every one.

I have lived in India through the 80s, 90s and the 2000s. There is no denying the fact that there is now a very visible change. Within one generation, things improved tremendously. From my own experiences, I know of countless cases where education has allowed families to move out poverty. Within my own family, a simple peon's son is now an engineer within Oracle and earns in a month what his parents must have earned in years. Most of my colleagues come from similar backgrounds. My own managers was a Muslim and his religion only mattered at id when we would be at his home for biryani.

I have never ever seen any sort of discrimination based on the basis of religion, caste, gender,etc in any of the places I worked with for the past 10 years. Ofcourse, you can argue that I may have been lucky in this respect. However it is the same feeling with all my friends and I do not feel special at all.

Give it some time, things are improving fast and such arguments and comparisons would appear silly in a few years time.

 

[rajeev]

hey, it's something indian government said itself. You should know about it.

Again no link.

Poor comeback. With 800 million people, I was merely showing the proportion of indians living in poverty. Indian government's definition of poverty is very low, thus you get figures like 25%, etc. You took my post out of context and made it to suit yourself. Try better next time. This is all about proportions, not overall number living in x conditions.

I think you should read little more economics. Could help to understand what is going in your country and your neighbor's country. Regarding stats that are not based on Indian government claims of poverty, but World Bank's claim that states number of people living below 1$/day. Just by that account you are wrong because 25% of 1.2 billion is not 800 million.

Recently, World Bank changed the numbers and changed the poverty line to 1.25 $/day. 800 million number of poor people comes from people earning below 2$/day.

But for your information, you seem to far more interested in eradication of poverty in India. Is it so hard to look back at your corner, or is that banned in your country?

Hey, at least PA is not killing innocent people. Additionally, all this terrorism against muslims in india is state sponsered, unlike in Pakistan.

Yes, you seem to far more advanced. Drone attack reports showed only 7% hit the intended targets, rest were collateral damage aka people's lives lost. So I should trust what you are saying PA is not killing innocent peoples. Thanks for debating without facts.

As you know, in India it is always a practice to kill Muslims and that is why population of Muslims in India has grown from Independence from 13.5% of population to 15% of the population. Whereas carpet bombing of PA and TTP explosions only moved the minorities from 10% of population to less than 1% of population. I know this western theory of debating with facts and numbers are bias in itself and they tends to have anti-Pakistan bias.

 

[Bhaarat]

Ahsan,

you are definitely trying to defend the undefendable. Pakistan is much poorer than India. Pakistan is living on aids given by 'friends of Pakistan', OTOH India is growing at a great pace even in these times of recession. Pakisan has a history of defaulting on the loans, World Bank banks on India.

Also, Pakistan is a smaller nation while India is almost three times it. Pakistan's entire population is about the same as India's muslim population which is a minority. Imagine the difference of populations. Yet, its clear that India is doing a better job of bringing development to its people compared to any other country in sub-continent. And perhaps Pakistan is doing worst of all in this region, not counting Afghanistan.

Not to mention the deteriorating security situation in Punjab itself(imagine the situation in rest of Pakistan), in contrast India would seem like a heaven on earth.