Azerbaijan to Buy 24 JF17 Thunder Block 2 Aircraft from Pakistan

[RealNapster]

Repair line will be fully busy with PAF anyway..

I was just saying that we need JF 17 III in huge numbers to replace some older generation fighters. Our current capability is to produce 16-20 jets per year. Any further orders for block III will make deliveries to PAF delayed a bit..

Given the threats we have on our east, with new 4.5+ jets coming into their inventory, it is better to fill our own gap..

But.. if we really want to export block II and III to more than 5 countries, we must expand the production line..

What's your take on this?

You are right that we will need block-3 in quantities. I guess 6 squadrons atleast. Should continu block 2 manufacture untill then. We have some 49 block 1 and 56-57 block 2’s. If we keep continue manufacturing block 2 till 2020 (its when block 3 production starts). We will have some 49 block 1 and 60-65 block 2’s (excluding exports). So 49+65+100 is a good force for PAF.

Also, just like Mastan said , we need a Block 4 which is 25-30% bigger then current one in terms of weight and size which will increase its paylod from current 4500 kg to some 6000 kg. This will solve a big issue of Paylod per sortie. Currently if you need 5 JF-17s to eraze some target then you will need 3-4.

Talking about the exports, no country exports jets in quantites more then 5-6/year/country (other then US). And even that start after 3-4 years of order (just see indias Rafael deal. Signed in 2017. Deliveries expected in 2019 end or 2020).So even if we built 20-25 (Which ACM said we have the capability of) even then keeping a squadron of 14-16 to yourself and exporting remaining 9-10 a year is still a good strategy. 2 countries at a time (say egypt and Azerbaijan), we will be able to export each country 15-16 jets in 3 years (thats the time other countries need even to start deliveries).

P.s: i am not an expert. Just speakjng my mind

All f-7 and mirages need replacement I have a feeling that production will remain high way into the mid 2040,s

This project should not be freezed after 3-4 blocks. Its need continuous work like they do with f-16. Tweeking the jet a little bit and speciallizjng it for a specific role with existing base figter and a little investment of 5-10 million dollars. And then manufacturing 16-20 jets kf that “specialized jf-17”. This should continue and need never stoped.

 

[ARMalik]

You guys have such a simple mind.
-firstly, the production rate will be increased since there are production lines in China run by CAC as well. Remember, JF-17 is also a BUSINESS, hence the more is produced the better the profits.

-Secondly, there was some reliable news earlier this year on a sister forum where it was stated that Pakistan would actually increase the number of JF-17 jets well above 250 closer to 300 with majority of them in Block-3. Again this points to more production lines being set-up in Pakistan.

-thirdly, Block-1 and 2 will be upgraded to get closer to Block-3 standard. Again this will require facilities in Pakistan to undertake such a task. This also points to the fact that "maintenance facilities" would be expanded to cater for PAF and foreign airforces.

 

[Shabi1]

I read someplace Azerbaijan interested in Block-2 with Air cooled AESA radar so if true then these JF-17s will be Block-2 Plus.

Although production facilities are being enhanced but even with current infrastructure things can be speeded up by dividing work load, PAC only making the airframe and export models being sent to China for systems integration to free up line at PAC same as was done with Myanmar JF-17s, this will speed up production to meet any additional orders.

 

[araz]

I think we should expand the facilities if the demand is going up instead of curtailing the business. Scaling up has its own advantage since many of these facilities can be shared with other projects like project Azm etc.

I agree that at this stage it would be sensible to increase production facilities. I also agree we can absorb workforce into newer projects. I think China still has an assembly line for JFTs. That can be utilized while we build capacity up to 24 planes a year. Currently it takes 3 months to fully assemble a JFT. FOR 16 planes we need to have 4 assemblies working simultaneously and by inference 6 assemblies for 24 planes. Capacity build up could take 2- 3 yrs so an we supply the Myanmar and Nigerian Orders via the Chinese assmebly line. However more than the build up it is the sustainabilty of the assembly line as Azm will not require input till 2030. So we do need a couple of other big orders to make this move. I dont see us inducting more than 16 planes a year. The other factor is what facilities do we have for manufacturing the subsystems and do they have the capacity.

A

 

[Maxpane]

waiting for official news

 

[Aamir Hussain]

To increase the size of the aircraft, it will add weight, that would require more thrust and power for enhanced electronics systems....that points out to new, more powerful engine. Once that is done, all the rest is no brainer. Both FA-18 and F-16 have become bigger as compared to their initial batches.

Use of composites will reduce weight while increasing payload.

 

[araz]

You are right that we will need block-3 in quantities. I guess 6 squadrons atleast. Should continu block 2 manufacture untill then. We have some 49 block 1 and 56-57 block 2’s. If we keep continue manufacturing block 2 till 2020 (its when block 3 production starts). We will have some 49 block 1 and 60-65 block 2’s (excluding exports). So 49+65+100 is a good force for PAF.

Also, just like Mastan said , we need a Block 4 which is 25-30% bigger then current one in terms of weight and size which will increase its paylod from current 4500 kg to some 6000 kg. This will solve a big issue of Paylod per sortie. Currently if you need 5 JF-17s to eraze some target then you will need 3-4.

Talking about the exports, no country exports jets in quantites more then 5-6/year/country (other then US). And even that start after 3-4 years of order (just see indias Rafael deal. Signed in 2017. Deliveries expected in 2019 end or 2020).So even if we built 20-25 (Which ACM said we have the capability of) even then keeping a squadron of 14-16 to yourself and exporting remaining 9-10 a year is still a good strategy. 2 countries at a time (say egypt and Azerbaijan), we will be able to export each country 15-16 jets in 3 years (thats the time other countries need even to start deliveries).

P.s: i am not an expert. Just speakjng my mind



This project should not be freezed after 3-4 blocks. Its need continuous work like they do with f-16. Tweeking the jet a little bit and speciallizjng it for a specific role with existing base figter and a little investment of 5-10 million dollars. And then manufacturing 16-20 jets kf that “specialized jf-17”. This should continue and need never stoped.

I agree with all that you say barring enlarging the current airframe. I think you dont fix that which is not broken. We are developing a niche with this sized jet and should continue tweaking it with block wise upgrade. Airframe enlargement is a different plane altogether as you will possibly need a higher thrust engine. So if you want to go down that route for 3 squadrons, then a better bet is off the shelf buy as that much cost would be sunk in the development in any case. Latest indications from PAF are that it is increasingly enamoured by both the J10C nd J11 series so let us wait and see what happens.
A

To increase the size of the aircraft, it will add weight, that would require more thrust and power for enhanced electronics systems....that points out to new, more powerful engine. Once that is done, all the rest is no brainer.

Use of composites will reduce weight while increasing payload.

This and the cost implications are where we have issues. So contrary to general consensus we neither have the luxury of multiple engines to choose from nor do we want to lose commonality between various blocks thereby letting go of the economics aspect of the project.
I agree that weapon load could potentially be increased by use of composites and strengthening of wings but PAF tried the JFT with 9 HPs and opted for 7. Why? I think that can always be on the card once the 93 MAs come on line

 

[LKJ86]

Latest indications from PAF are that it is increasingly enamoured by both the J10C nd J11 series so let us wait and see what happens.

In fact, J-16 would be the best choice for PAF, if possible.

 

[araz]

In fact, J-16 would be the best choice for PAF, if possible.

Agreed -but there is a need for a medium weight single engined fighter as well. Let us see what is made available to the PAF and when.
A

 

[Signalian]

You are right that we will need block-3 in quantities. I guess 6 squadrons atleast. Should continu block 2 manufacture untill then. We have some 49 block 1 and 56-57 block 2’s. If we keep continue manufacturing block 2 till 2020 (its when block 3 production starts). We will have some 49 block 1 and 60-65 block 2’s (excluding exports). So 49+65+100 is a good force for PAF.

Considering that PAF has to support PA and PN, and not only cover attrition losses in case of war but also show up with numbers to take on a bigger enemy, up to 300 JF-17's.

Also, just like Mastan said , we need a Block 4 which is 25-30% bigger then current one in terms of weight and size which will increase its paylod from current 4500 kg to some 6000 kg. This will solve a big issue of Paylod per sortie. Currently if you need 5 JF-17s to eraze some target then you will need 3-4.

Instead of Block-4, a new aircraft like the one projected in Project Azm should cater for being a bigger or stealthier aircraft. It should also carry ALCM(1 or 2) easily.

In fact, J-16 would be the best choice for PAF, if possible.

This just puts a Modified SU-27/30 (J-16) against MKI. Maybe acquire a different aircraft altogether.

All f-7 and mirages need replacement I have a feeling that production will remain high way into the mid 2040,s

It would be more suitable to replace mirages with an aircraft having a strike oriented role with bigger payload than JF-17. Replacing F-7 with JF-17 is enhancing the capabilities of that squadron multiple times.

That's why I said unless we have facilities to produce at least 32 a year..

Right now, blk III is required in huge numbers by Pakistan to counter threats posed by Gangadehshatgards.. If we increase our capabilities, we can go to find more buyers..

It would also be beneficial to open a cosy diplomatic channel with USA and get hands on more F-16's side by side which can replace Mirage squadrons instantly.

 

[war&peace]

I agree that at this stage it would be sensible to increase production facilities. I also agree we can absorb workforce into newer projects. I think China still has an assembly line for JFTs. That can be utilized while we build capacity up to 24 planes a year. Currently it takes 3 months to fully assemble a JFT. FOR 16 planes we need to have 4 assemblies working simultaneously and by inference 6 assemblies for 24 planes. Capacity build up could take 2- 3 yrs so an we supply the Myanmar and Nigerian Orders via the Chinese assmebly line. However more than the build up it is the sustainabilty of the assembly line as Azm will not require input till 2030. So we do need a couple of other big orders to make this move. I dont see us inducting more than 16 planes a year. The other factor is what facilities do we have for manufacturing the subsystems and do they have the capacity.

A

I think China will also help in this because it gets its share in the profit and more than profit, it helps China capture new markets as well and perhaps this one is China's most advanced A/C exported to other nations to date so it will pave way for future sales because once an airforce selects an A/C and has trained its pilots on it and developed repair and maintenance facilities.. it is natural for it look for future upgrades from the same source for the sake of familiarity like PAF wanted to continue with F16s and if USA did not sanction Pakistan and betrayed it, PAF would be still buying more and more F16s because of the familiarity with the system.

 

[LKJ86]

This just puts a Modified SU-27/30 (J-16) against MKI. Maybe acquire a different aircraft altogether.

In PLAAF, J-16, J-10B, and J-10C are 3.5-generation fighter aircrafts, while J-11B, J-10A, Su-27SK/J-11/J-11A, Su-30MKK are 3-generation fighter aircrafts.
In the "golden helmet" competition 2018, J-16 beats J-10C in 3.5-generation fighter group, while J-11B is the winner of the 3-generation fighter group.

 

[CriticalThought]

In PLAAF, J-16, J-10B, and J-10C are 3.5-generation fighter aircrafts, while J-11B, J-10A, Su-27SK/J-11/J-11A, Su-30MKK are 3-generation fighter aircrafts.
In the "gold helmet" competition 2018, J-16 beats J-10C in 3.5-generation fighter group, while J-11B is the winner of the 3-generation fighter group.

Isn't J-16 more of a strike figher? Which one of these J variants is the most modern air superiority fighter?

 

[Signalian]

In China, J-16, J-10B, and J-10C are 3.5-generation fighter aircrafts, while J-11B, J-10A, Su-27SK/J-11/J-11A, Su-30MKK are 3-generation fighter aircrafts.
In the "gold helmet" competition 2018, J-16 beats J-10C in 3.5-generation fighter group, while J-11B is the winner of the 3-generation fighter group.

Mate, IAF flies SU30 and will have more experience in devising tactics and strategies suitable for Flanker. It doesnt make sense to me getting the same aircraft which the enemy flies already and that too in smaller numbers than the enemy, unless there is no other option (like F-7 even when India flew Mig-21). It doesn't give any edge. Now PAF has its options open.

 

[LKJ86]

Which one of these J variants is the most modern air superiority fighter?

J-16, except J-20.