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Availability of Petrol with higher Octane Value

AsifIjaz

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Last night amongst friends we were discussing that with the recent decline in petrol price and the inclination shown by government to decrease the price more is there a possibility that government for once sits down with the Oil refineries (OR) and OMC and discuss with them a formula by which out of every liter sold in the country from an agreed date a small amount of the price to be decreased further will not be transferred to the customers but will be diverted to the OR/OMC. This amount should then be used by them in XYZ amount of time to role out petrol / diesel with a higher octane/cetane value.

For the record the fuel available in pakistan has a RON value of 86/87... HOBC has a RON value of 95 (i have my doubts here)... the required or recommended RON value of fuel for newer cars is 90 or higher.

The OR have shown reluctance to invest a few hundred million dollars to upgrade their facilities so as to role out a better petrol. This is our chance to get a better and an environmental friendly gasoline made available to us.

If only some one in the ministry will have the will power to think outside the box... Your thoughts on this????
 
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Cost vs Benefits.....

few 100 million dollars vs ?????????????????? a tree?
 
na mere bhai... few hundred million dollars not going out of ur pockets or mine.. just 2/3 rupees going out of our pockets for a fuel which can sustain a higher compression ratio, burns completely and properly and thus leads to less noise polution, less smoke, less particles in exhaust whhich will ultimately improve the air that you , me, our kids and the society inhales. so its not about the short term affects but the longer term..
a crude and not so direct example is that for me rickshaws are a nuisance but i am glad we have fewer 2 strokes and more 4 strokes available to us. Keeps the air and the nose pollution at bay
 
Cost vs Benefits.....

few 100 million dollars vs ?????????????????? a tree?

Basically in laymans terms a higher octane would give you savings in engine maintenance forget about these trees nonsense. Your children can live without those worthless things.
 
na mere bhai... few hundred million dollars not going out of ur pockets or mine.. just 2/3 rupees going out of our pockets for a fuel which can sustain a higher compression ratio, burns completely and properly and thus leads to less noise polution, less smoke, less particles in exhaust whhich will ultimately improve the air that you , me, our kids and the society inhales. so its not about the short term affects but the longer term..
a crude and not so direct example is that for me rickshaws are a nuisance but i am glad we have fewer 2 strokes and more 4 strokes available to us. Keeps the air and the nose pollution at bay

then introduce emissions laws.

diesel is a clean burning fuel that is used in high compression engines (much higher than any petrol engine). So there you go, a cleaner fuel is already available. And also, diesel is much more efficient than petrol, so why invest in a higher octane when a lower octane is actually more efficient?

As far as air pollution is concerned, modern EFI engines take a good care of that. Make it mandatory for all vehicles to have emissions tests and adopt a high standard for exhaust air quality.

Higher octane doesn't mean rickshaws will become less polluting or less noisy, they'll still use the usual stuff without silencers and catalytic converters.
 
Basically in laymans terms a higher octane would give you savings in engine maintenance forget about these trees nonsense. Your children can live without those worthless things.
then introduce emissions laws.

diesel is a clean burning fuel that is used in high compression engines (much higher than any petrol engine). So there you go, a cleaner fuel is already available. And also, diesel is much more efficient than petrol, so why invest in a higher octane when a lower octane is actually more efficient?

As far as air pollution is concerned, modern EFI engines take a good care of that. Make it mandatory for all vehicles to have emissions tests and adopt a high standard for exhaust air quality.

Higher octane doesn't mean rickshaws will become less polluting or less noisy, they'll still use the usual stuff without silencers and catalytic converters.
Instead of introducing high speed Diesel/Petrol(High Octane), Don't you think Pakistan as a whole should first migrate to Euro 4 norms.
Pakistan is still on Euro 2 nationwide. Just moving to Euro 3 nationwide would reduce pollution in Pakistan and improve efficiency of cars resulting in millions of dollars saving.

Whereas India has already moved to Euro 4 norms for all major cities, and Euro 3 for hinterland.

And this is one of the major reasons Reliance cited why it is not exporting fuel to Pakistan(Reliance's refinery - the largest refinery in the world - is right next door to Pakistan in Gujarat). Exporting to Pakistan makes a lot of sense as it would be cheaper for Pakistan to purchase and Reliance to sell.
Reliance said Pakistan is using Euro 2, while the lowest grade they produce is Euro 3.
 
Instead of introducing high speed Diesel/Petrol(High Octane), Don't you think Pakistan as a whole should first migrate to Euro 4 norms.
Pakistan is still on Euro 2 nationwide. Just moving to Euro 3 nationwide would reduce pollution in Pakistan and improve efficiency of cars resulting in millions of dollars saving.

Whereas India has already moved to Euro 4 norms for all major cities, and Euro 3 for hinterland.

And this is one of the major reasons Reliance cited why it is not exporting fuel to Pakistan(Reliance's refinery - the largest refinery in the world - is right next door to Pakistan in Gujarat). Exporting to Pakistan makes a lot of sense as it would be cheaper for Pakistan to purchase and Reliance to sell.
Reliance said Pakistan is using Euro 2, while the lowest grade they produce is Euro 3.

My point was that higher octane gives nothing extra, stick to traditional low octane diesel, it's a great fuel. Introduce more high compression ratio diesel models and that would save on the oil import bill as well.

The cost of a higher octane fuel is far greater than it's advantages.
 
then introduce emissions laws.

diesel is a clean burning fuel that is used in high compression engines (much higher than any petrol engine). So there you go, a cleaner fuel is already available. And also, diesel is much more efficient than petrol, so why invest in a higher octane when a lower octane is actually more efficient?

As far as air pollution is concerned, modern EFI engines take a good care of that. Make it mandatory for all vehicles to have emissions tests and adopt a high standard for exhaust air quality.

Higher octane doesn't mean rickshaws will become less polluting or less noisy, they'll still use the usual stuff without silencers and catalytic converters.

Why is diesel now bad news?

The Mayor of Paris Anne Hidalgo wants to ban diesel cars and the pollution they bring from the streets of the French capital. But not long ago, diesel engines were thought to be environmentally friendly. What could have gone wrong?
Opinion on diesel cars has swung widely over the years.
Diesel is a more efficient fuel than petrol, but in the past diesel engines were often noisy and dirty.
Then, with growing concerns over climate change, car manufacturers were urged to produce cleaner, quieter diesel cars to capitalise on their extra fuel efficiency.
The cars were fitted with a trap to catch the particles of smoke associated with the fuel. Several governments rewarded the manufacturing improvements by incentivising the purchase and use of diesel cars.
But the policy has backfired.

Going into reverse
First, there have been problems with the particle traps - some drivers have removed them because they sometimes don't work properly unless the car is driven hot.
Second, the diesels are still producing nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems. Diesels make several times more NO2 than petrol cars.
Now, in order to meet European air pollution laws, politicians are being forced into an embarrassing U-turn, telling drivers that they've decided they don't much like diesels after all.
MPs in the UK have mooted a scrappage scheme for diesel cars, while the mayor of Paris has called for a ban.
Several European nations are currently in breach of EU clean air laws.
The EU’s NO2 limit was exceeded at 301 sites in 2012, including seven in London. The concentration on Marylebone Road was more than double the limit.
Districts in Athens, Berlin, Brussels, Madrid, Paris, and Rome are also exceeded the ceiling.
_75306515_line976.jpg

Not just carbon: Key pollutants for human health
  • Particulate matter (PM): Can cause or aggravate cardiovascular and lung diseases, heart attacks and arrhythmias. Can cause cancer. May lead to atherosclerosis, adverse birth outcomes and childhood respiratory disease. The outcome can be premature death.
  • Ozone (O3): Can decrease lung function and aggravate asthma and other lung diseases. Can also lead to premature death.
  • Nitrogen oxides (NO2): Exposure to NO2 is associated with increased deaths from heart and lung disease, and respiratory illness.
  • Polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), in particular benzo a-pyrene (BaP): Carcinogenic.
_75306515_line976.jpg

Politicians are now scurrying to persuade the courts that they are obeying an EU demand to clean up the air as soon as possible.
The Paris mayor said at the weekend that she wanted the city to become ‘semi-pedestrianised’, with a ban on diesel cars in the city centre and some neighbourhoods given entirely to residents’ cars, delivery vehicles and emergency vehicles.
"I want diesel cars out of Paris by 2020," she said.
Ms Hidalgo hopes that her plan will improve the quality of the air in a city where, on average, people live six or seven months less than those who are not exposed to the same levels of pollution.
Adding electric vans and putting limits on tourist buses would also help lessen the public health risk, she said.
Premature death
Bikes are expected to become the favoured form of transport, with cycle lanes doubled by 2020 in a $141m (£90m) plan.
The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson has promised to halve pollution, spending around $516m (£330m) to bring 2,400 hybrid buses, zero-emission taxis and 10,000 street trees. The announcement came weeks after he was forced to accept that Oxford Street has some of the highest levels of NO2 in the world.
Central London will also have an 'Ultra Low Emission Zone' in 2020. Mr Johnson has previously faced criticism from health and environment lobby groups complaining that he was dragging his feet in meeting EU targets.
The UK government says it is responding to EU demands by bringing forward new plans. Labour say the government has ignored the issue - they demand low-emissions zones in all of the UK’s major cities.

According to the European Environment Agency, air pollution is the top environmental risk factor for premature death in Europe; it increases the incidence of a wide range of diseases.
Particulate matter (PM) and ground-level ozone (O3) are the most harmful pollutants.
Vehicles are by no means the only source of pollutants – some industries are major polluters too, and shipping in some places. But the politicians who run Europe’s biggest cities have protested that they cannot control pollution from industry elsewhere that drifts into their area.
With so many nations failing to meet pollution laws, the EU is under pressure to relax air standards.

BBC News - Why is diesel now bad news?
 
Considering most Pakistanis cities have PMS 2.5 .. essentially slow death in the air.. sure.. high octane.. whatever.. bring it on. Life expectancy is not much anyway.
 
Why is diesel now bad news?

The Mayor of Paris Anne Hidalgo wants to ban diesel cars and the pollution they bring from the streets of the French capital. But not long ago, diesel engines were thought to be environmentally friendly. What could have gone wrong?
Opinion on diesel cars has swung widely over the years.
Diesel is a more efficient fuel than petrol, but in the past diesel engines were often noisy and dirty.
Then, with growing concerns over climate change, car manufacturers were urged to produce cleaner, quieter diesel cars to capitalise on their extra fuel efficiency.
The cars were fitted with a trap to catch the particles of smoke associated with the fuel. Several governments rewarded the manufacturing improvements by incentivising the purchase and use of diesel cars.
But the policy has backfired.

Going into reverse
First, there have been problems with the particle traps - some drivers have removed them because they sometimes don't work properly unless the car is driven hot.
Second, the diesels are still producing nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems. Diesels make several times more NO2 than petrol cars.
Now, in order to meet European air pollution laws, politicians are being forced into an embarrassing U-turn, telling drivers that they've decided they don't much like diesels after all.
MPs in the UK have mooted a scrappage scheme for diesel cars, while the mayor of Paris has called for a ban.
Several European nations are currently in breach of EU clean air laws.
The EU’s NO2 limit was exceeded at 301 sites in 2012, including seven in London. The concentration on Marylebone Road was more than double the limit.
Districts in Athens, Berlin, Brussels, Madrid, Paris, and Rome are also exceeded the ceiling.
_75306515_line976.jpg

Not just carbon: Key pollutants for human health
  • Particulate matter (PM): Can cause or aggravate cardiovascular and lung diseases, heart attacks and arrhythmias. Can cause cancer. May lead to atherosclerosis, adverse birth outcomes and childhood respiratory disease. The outcome can be premature death.
  • Ozone (O3): Can decrease lung function and aggravate asthma and other lung diseases. Can also lead to premature death.
  • Nitrogen oxides (NO2): Exposure to NO2 is associated with increased deaths from heart and lung disease, and respiratory illness.
  • Polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), in particular benzo a-pyrene (BaP): Carcinogenic.
_75306515_line976.jpg

Politicians are now scurrying to persuade the courts that they are obeying an EU demand to clean up the air as soon as possible.
The Paris mayor said at the weekend that she wanted the city to become ‘semi-pedestrianised’, with a ban on diesel cars in the city centre and some neighbourhoods given entirely to residents’ cars, delivery vehicles and emergency vehicles.
"I want diesel cars out of Paris by 2020," she said.
Ms Hidalgo hopes that her plan will improve the quality of the air in a city where, on average, people live six or seven months less than those who are not exposed to the same levels of pollution.
Adding electric vans and putting limits on tourist buses would also help lessen the public health risk, she said.
Premature death
Bikes are expected to become the favoured form of transport, with cycle lanes doubled by 2020 in a $141m (£90m) plan.
The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson has promised to halve pollution, spending around $516m (£330m) to bring 2,400 hybrid buses, zero-emission taxis and 10,000 street trees. The announcement came weeks after he was forced to accept that Oxford Street has some of the highest levels of NO2 in the world.
Central London will also have an 'Ultra Low Emission Zone' in 2020. Mr Johnson has previously faced criticism from health and environment lobby groups complaining that he was dragging his feet in meeting EU targets.
The UK government says it is responding to EU demands by bringing forward new plans. Labour say the government has ignored the issue - they demand low-emissions zones in all of the UK’s major cities.

According to the European Environment Agency, air pollution is the top environmental risk factor for premature death in Europe; it increases the incidence of a wide range of diseases.
Particulate matter (PM) and ground-level ozone (O3) are the most harmful pollutants.
Vehicles are by no means the only source of pollutants – some industries are major polluters too, and shipping in some places. But the politicians who run Europe’s biggest cities have protested that they cannot control pollution from industry elsewhere that drifts into their area.
With so many nations failing to meet pollution laws, the EU is under pressure to relax air standards.

BBC News - Why is diesel now bad news?

In Pakistan, where riskshaws don't use catalytic convertors, shifting to diesel will improve air quality. diesel without catalytic converter is much better than petrol without catalytic convertor.

And I can also find an article on google that supports my point....no big deal, here you go :

New petrol engines cause more air pollution than dirty diesels | Transport & Environment
 
@Faiez in my original post i also said higher octane / cetane value.. cetane is for diesel...
basically you can not change millions of vehicles across Pakistan to diesel overnight or may be in a decade as well. it has to be a gradual and a consistent approach... till that happens a higher octane value fuel will help petrol based cars and a higher cetane will be beneficial for diesel engine cars...
both of us are saying the same thing that combustion ratio or efficiency needs to be improved.. we disagree on the method to do so. yours suggestion though sounds like an ideal option but will this be possible overnight or in a decade is a point to be discussed. i don't know a country with only diesel based vehicles. EFI/MPFI etc needs to be made mandatory, no ifs and buts about it.... but thats for newer cars but for the current cars running around (in millions of billions) there needs to be something can improve the situation.
 
@Faiez in my original post i also said higher octane / cetane value.. cetane is for diesel...
basically you can not change millions of vehicles across Pakistan to diesel overnight or may be in a decade as well. it has to be a gradual and a consistent approach... till that happens a higher octane value fuel will help petrol based cars and a higher cetane will be beneficial for diesel engine cars...
both of us are saying the same thing that combustion ratio or efficiency needs to be improved.. we disagree on the method to do so. yours suggestion though sounds like an ideal option but will this be possible overnight or in a decade is a point to be discussed. i don't know a country with only diesel based vehicles. EFI/MPFI etc needs to be made mandatory, no ifs and buts about it.... but thats for newer cars but for the current cars running around (in millions of billions) there needs to be something can improve the situation.

Europe/uk uses something like 40% diesel vehicles.

It took only a few years before cng became mainstream.
 
Instead of introducing high speed Diesel/Petrol(High Octane), Don't you think Pakistan as a whole should first migrate to Euro 4 norms.
Pakistan is still on Euro 2 nationwide. Just moving to Euro 3 nationwide would reduce pollution in Pakistan and improve efficiency of cars resulting in millions of dollars saving.

Whereas India has already moved to Euro 4 norms for all major cities, and Euro 3 for hinterland.

And this is one of the major reasons Reliance cited why it is not exporting fuel to Pakistan(Reliance's refinery - the largest refinery in the world - is right next door to Pakistan in Gujarat). Exporting to Pakistan makes a lot of sense as it would be cheaper for Pakistan to purchase and Reliance to sell.
Reliance said Pakistan is using Euro 2, while the lowest grade they produce is Euro 3.
The death sentence of Maruti 800 was this standards.
 
Huge difference between 40%, between becoming the mainstream and between becoming the sole engine type... u r either bent upon not reading the posts completely or i am unable to put forward my discussion properly...
Bhai i agreed above that urs option is the ideal one and is possible for newer cars only..simply put it will be the law in eutopia... from ur argument, CNG u could use it on cars made in 1950 to the latest ones but u cant go on converting or replacing engines... secondly the masses are using technology that is sans efi. Every day u see cars made in early 90s even. lower and middle class transporters and commuters can not afford to replace the cars.
government should impose restrictions on cars without efi and should give duty concessions on diesel cars. once the difference is there people will start switching to these standards. but coupled with this better petrol (octane) as well as diesel (cetane) should be made available for people. The current price fall will remain for at least more or less a year and this gives us alot of time to take the next step here.
i have said enough and we both have made enough efforts to beat on the exact same point...
 
You first have to understand what Octane rating is and why it is needed.

Octane rating specifies the conditions under which the fuel would spontaneously ignite in the combustion chamber. A low octane rating means the fuel will ignite at a lower compression in the cylinder. Fuel types are thus sold by what the vehicles demand. In Pakistan, the regular fuel is usually 85-87 octane rating and is fine to be used inthe most common engines which are not forced induced....that is....they are not turbocharged or supercharged. Commonly, higher octane fuels help when you are using forced induction.....so that the fuel will not ignite before the appropriate time. Fuel igniting before it is supposed to leads to engine knocking and loss of power.

That is why manufacturers don't state what fuel name you should put in, but rather the type of fuel.....they specify the RON value in your owners manual.

One of our cars is a MB W212, which is turbocharged, and hence it's fuel filler cap indicates minimum RON91.......in Pakistan that corresponds to HOBC...so we use HOBC. On the other hand the suzuki and civic are fine with the normal regular Octane 85-87 fuel.

Putting a Higher Octane fuel is only beneficial if the engine is designed for it. That is why you will only find HOBC in Pakistan in major cities/petrol pumps only. The demand is too low. It is not unusual for me to go and fill up the HOBC and the fuel pump guy saying....'Sir all HOBC is sold out for the day'
 
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