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Assalamu alaikum. New member here from Khanabadosh community

Well guys I am disheartened. Most of the time when someone from our communities tries to come forward they are rejected or insulted or treated with suspicion. We are too broken and tired to keep trying again and again. Maybe we should just give up and accept that we are destined to die in destitute poverty like our ancestors. This is why we prefer to keep to ourselves because most of the society treats us with suspicion
No that's not true... please stop using the victim card to exploit emotions.
 
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Well guys I am disheartened. Most of the time when someone from our communities tries to come forward they are rejected or insulted or treated with suspicion. We are too broken and tired to keep trying again and again. Maybe we should just give up and accept that we are destined to die in destitute poverty like our ancestors. This is why we prefer to keep to ourselves because most of the society treats us with suspicion

Don’t know what is the reality, but just a few things.

Many of your talking points against Pakistan, Pakistanis, supposed caste system in Pakistan, affinity to India and Afghanistan, and anti-Islam sentiments are straight out of the playbook of Hindutva zealots who come here masquerading as Pakistanis.

You did a lot of research, but is it your real life experiences or just some info you got off Wikipedia.

We have no problem with this racial, ethnic, linguistic identity.

I have known and befriended people of this community, personally inquired about the living conditions and nature of their lives when I saw their camps in Lahore, and I am very close with the Christian community of Faisalabad.

They are proud Pakistanis who love this country, and fiercely loyal to this nation. They are a part of us.

To give an example, I much rather prefer the friendship of a Christian/Hindu/Sikh Pakistani over Indian Muslims.

There is work to be done, but Alhamdulilah we have begun the long journey of bringing insaf (justice) to all regions and communities of Pakistan. No one will be left behind.

I have personally observed great work that NGOs in Pakistan are doing for nomads, Christians, Hindus, and poor Muslims, esp in Punjab.
 
I have decided to spend what little energy I have somewhere else. The majority of people are still narrow minded and cannot see beyond what is immediately in front of them

For you patriotic citizens history starts in 1947, Quaid-e Azam being your first ancestor (the new Adam) and your close neighbours are your enemy. Your worldview is us vs them and you are people who like war. Indians on the other of the border are equally blind and so are Afghans. In short, these failing third world countries don’t really have a future. You cannot live in peace like civilized humans. Your religions will never be at peace because you do not follow them correctly because nobody can agree on how to follow them properly. Anyway, I am in Europe and I probably will never go back to any of these miserable countries where humans cannot live in a civilised manner. We are all doomed regardless when you idiots explode your bombs and kill everyone and eveything.

This mentality, patriotism, devotion, blind faith is beyond my comprehension

Don’t know what is the reality, but just a few things.

Many of your talking points against Pakistan, Pakistanis, supposed caste system in Pakistan, affinity to India and Afghanistan, and anti-Islam sentiments are straight out of the playbook of Hindutva zealots who come here masquerading as Pakistanis.

You did a lot of research, but is it your real life experiences or just some info you got off Wikipedia.

We have no problem with this racial, ethnic, linguistic identity.

I have known and befriended people of this community, personally inquired about the living conditions and nature of their lives when I saw their camps in Lahore, and I am very close with the Christian community of Faisalabad.

They are proud Pakistanis who love this country, and fiercely loyal to this nation. They are a part of us.

To give an example, I much rather prefer the friendship of a Christian/Hindu/Sikh Pakistani over Indian Muslims.

There is work to be done, but Alhamdulilah we have begun the long journey of bringing insaf (justice) to all regions and communities of Pakistan. No one will be left behind.

I have personally observed great work that NGOs in Pakistan are doing for nomads, Christians, Hindus, and poor Muslims, esp in Punjab.

I never said anything pro Hindi or pro India. Indians are even worse and Brahman Hindu is the worst religion ever.

Punjabi gypsies are in Punjab. We came from Afghanistan.
Ultimately origin is same but they identify as Punjabi and we with Pashto

How do you feel that some one these NGO are actually missionaries and converting people to Christianity?

In fact just to piss people off I’m thinking of becoming one of those who gains money and fame in the West for talking shit about Muslims and Pakistan. Tum sab ki pol khul jayegi. Western people are not jahil like we are. Naturally because you people shoot first and ask queations later I will bet death threats then some maulvi will issue fatwa then I will be martyredfor speaking truth the you will shower my assassin with necklace of flowers nd declare him Ghazi

No that's not true... please stop using the victim card to exploit emotions.

why is it not true?

Anyway I cannot keep arguing

I probably not be posting here in future due to my inability to deal with further such attacks. I will instead look towards somewhere where the people want peace and equality not war and enmity
 
I probably not be posting here in future due to my inability to deal with further such attacks
No one is interested in your family background there are dozens of threads running on different topics why you don't post there
 
Meet the gypsies of Lahore
AOWN ALIUPDATED APR 10, 2015 11:56AM
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After a long day of work, family members prepare a place to spend the night.
On the way to Lahore from the historic Grand Trunk road crossing Shahdara Bridge, one is greeted with an extended strip of makeshift tents along the river Ravi.

Over 10 years, the campsite has grown into an entire community of gypsy tribes belonging to various districts of southern Punjab, primarily Jhang.

The nomads are socially and politically marginalised and largely alienated, deprived of the most basic rights.

From social rights to earning opportunities, nomad families grapple with various problems. Illiteracy and increasing population is a major issue, with each of the families having at least 10 children.

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Cluster of about 400 tents along the bank of river Ravi, without any basic utilities like electricity and water.
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Asad, working as beggar, earns for his family, his father is worried that government’s child protection department often detain the younger beggars and ask for bribes.
Most gypsies belong to the Changar, Odh, Bhatu, Jogy, Kenghar, Bazigar, Gurajmar, Gugray cast. They tend to stay put for a few weeks, months, or sometimes even years in Lahore.

Although some of these families are daily wage labourers, most of them rely on begging as their main source of income. A few of them have traditional professions like drum beating and monkey shows.

In a metropolis like Lahore, not only are the transient families not given their due rights, they are looked down upon by people in the city.

The gypsies have not helped their cause either by isolating themselves from society.

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The tent community got a water pump installed a few years ago but has now dried.
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Few gypsies have proper tents in place, but many live only under a shade.
In a colony of about 400 tents which I had the opportunity to visit, there were only two individuals with a very basic education. Both of them have taken the responsibility to teach the rest of the children the little that they know.

It is a bitter reality that begging is the main source of income for gypsy families and for them having a number of children means more earning hands. But when it comes to feeding and maintaining healthy living conditions, these have no means and ultimately descent into a state of poverty.

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Gulam Rasul hailed from Jhang about eight years ago, a heart patient, father of six daughters and two sons, has no job, and does not know about the cardiology hospital run by government.
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The main source of water is a small leak in the water supply pipe of city government.
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Gulam Qasim said that children are interested in studying and that there is hardly any absences from class.
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Gulam Qasim who got a primary education from his village near Multan, thinks racism is the reason why many gypsy children cannot attend government school.
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One of few tea stalls of the community.
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A grocery stall, these small business are run by the gypsy community, no outsiders are welcomed here.
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Gulam Qasim’s little pupil, fluent in Urdu and English alphabets.
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Ashraf Adil started this class about two years ago on his own. He even got the books from his own salary.
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The premises where he holds this morning class is called mosque of the community.
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Sajjad, has done matriculation through self-study, he has also managed to get some books but so far not succeeded in getting any pupils.
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On the way to work, monkey jugglers Riaz and Arshad have to walk all day to collect Rs 400-500.
*The writer is a Lahore based photojournalist
 
Actual history and origin of these people is unknown as it was never considered important enough to be recorded and they historically had no right to read and write it so it was lost but some myths and legends survive and some are newer

The untouchables are remants of leftovers of the conquered natives so together they were lumped by society as a whole

It is a myth that the ancestors of the sweepers (Churas) was a Bhil.

As is recorded Musallis and Kutana were converted sweepers

Musalli name is known in Afghanistan and Tajikistan
They were based in Laghman province and from there with Changars migrated to Tajikistan and Uzbekistan where they became Parya. Other names for Parya are Musalli and Changar, Laghmani, Afghan and Hindustani. If you google that name Parya you will find it is a mix of Marwari Rajasthani, Haryani, Braj (which as you say is spoken in Gangetic plains) or it could be Dardic Pashayi language. The Afghan Musalli also spoke ‘Inku’ a Saraiki dialect that my grandmother could speak. When I heard samples of Parya language during research I recognised many words and I’m sure you would too because they are common to Urdu and Panjabi. But overall I couldn’t understand the language, it was too different

Musallis are also in Peshawar and Khyber where they are called Shah Khel and my family is related to them. They are well aettled and either villagers farmers or business in cities. They are lower class of Sheikh community

They are also in Khost and other parts Afghanistan. Some
of them are still nomadic

Some say they are Mosuli from Mosul Iraq

In my case we have lost our original tribal name and identity and only name of profession survived so Saudgar is our name and sometimes we also use Shah Khel because it make us sound like we are a legitimate Pakhtun subtribe. They were originally based in region between Kabul and Peshawar

When we ask our elders about our history in that region they say they were traders from Punjab and came there almost 200 years ago. But we also have legends about Arabs and Sufi faqirs and royal families and such. Our primary identity is Sunni Muslim

Looks like I'm going to tell you history of your supposed people. First mussalis were known as "Bhangi". Once that became insult they changed it to "chuhra". Once that became insult they after converting to Islam wanted to know as mussali, sheikh. And in your family case in Bannu, as kutana or jat.

All these supposedly gypsy people don't have same origin. Naseebo Lal and Reshma look nothing like mussali/gypsy women I've seen in our area.

They are not conquered people because they came from India quite recently. The old ancient habitants of indus valley could be called conquered but they didn't left any trace in form of distinct community like your people have in India. You can't migrate from India in last few hundred years and suddenly complain about indigenous people of Pakistan for thousands of years. Your anger should be directed towards India where your people are majority being oppressed by minority Brahmins. This is why they moved towards west, to escape hindu caste system.
 
Naseebo Lal and Reshma look nothing like mussali/gypsy women I've seen in our area.
These people aren't mussali they are different and most of their girls are good looking
Waisay Naseebo lal musalini jaisi hi hai make up bhi to hota hai
 
No one is interested in your family background there are dozens of threads running on different topics why you don't post there

At least you have shown your true Colours

‘No one is interested in your family background’

Why? Because we are nomads and low castes?

There are so many threads here about biradari and tribe but not about my biradari. According to your Islam are we not equal to you? So why nobody is interested in our background?

If I was talking about a sayyed or zamindar family then you would all give me salami and durood not insulting me

Looks like I'm going to tell you history of your supposed people. First mussalis were known as "Bhangi". Once that became insult they changed it to "chuhra". Once that became insult they after converting to Islam wanted to know as mussali, sheikh. And in your family case in Bannu, as kutana or jat.

All these supposedly gypsy people don't have same origin. Naseebo Lal and Reshma look nothing like mussali/gypsy women I've seen in our area.

They are not conquered people because they came from India quite recently. The old ancient habitants of indus valley could be called conquered but they didn't left any trace in form of distinct community like your people have in India. You can't migrate from India in last few hundred years and suddenly complain about indigenous people of Pakistan for thousands of years. Your anger should be directed towards India where your people are majority being oppressed by minority Brahmins. This is why they moved towards west, to escape hindu caste system.

In Afghanistan they are treated same as gypsies. We are Kabuli we are not from Punjabi gypsies of Lahore. We are Musali are seen as Jat in Afghanistan have been in Laghman, Kabul, Jalalabad for 200 years and some went to Tajikistan

These people aren't mussali they are different and most of their girls are good looking
Waisay Naseebo lal musalini jaisi hi hai make up bhi to hota hai


Yeh hain hamare log. Ham Punjabi nahi, Pashto bolte hain aur ziyadatar kalay rang k hain
 
Yeh hain hamare log. Ham Punjabi nahi, Pashto bolte hain aur ziyadatar kalay rang k hain
Main in logon sa mutaliq baat Kar raha tha jinhain mainay dekha here in my area
Some of them look similar to Punjabis or are relatively darker but have sharp features and some are more dark like mussalis
 
Main in logon sa mutaliq baat Kar raha tha jinhain mainay dekha here in my area
Some of them look similar to Punjabis or are relatively darker but have sharp features and some are more dark like mussalis

We are not from one common race, we are mixed and remnants of different races. Also we accept wives from any caste and sometimes men also can become assimilated in our tribe if they marry out women
 
In my area Sialkot and around we call them Changars / Pakhiwas and their main business is begging, collecting plastic bottles etc....men do nothing only drinking homemade kupi and play cards....only women and children are doing some work even begging and prostitution....

Now their new business is grabbing lands ....first they beg landowners to let them place their temporary jughies and later they refuse to vacate and demand money....
My uncle and my friend already a victims of these scams and later paid handsome amount in order to free their lands / plots.

@war&peace @Brass Knuckles
 
Well guys I am disheartened. Most of the time when someone from our communities tries to come forward they are rejected or insulted or treated with suspicion. We are too broken and tired to keep trying again and again. Maybe we should just give up and accept that we are destined to die in destitute poverty like our ancestors. This is why we prefer to keep to ourselves because most of the society treats us with suspicion


Hey buddy welcome aboard and stop playing the victim card, try to assimilate in the mainstream by using your existing account balance and nationality. Umm any high caste guy gonna offer you a rishta - - - - - - - and after a generation or two later you be some Malak, rana or whatever brand suits you - - - - - -




Noone respects the broke *** and here you are demanding a marshal plan sorta arrangement for a whole good for nothing community, sorry if it hurt your feelings.



you cannot change the genetic modus operandi of the South Asian fellows. They are racist by nature so for you and other underdogs only redemption is moola and things and ways mentioned above.



Let me quote you a real life story.
In my high school days I got invited by a friend to a dawat, so I decided to ride all the way from my city and then later pick him up from his degree college in his village . Upon my arrival he insisted to have some cold drink from the college canteen , we sat among a company of common friends, majority of whom I had no idea about who they were. G rana sb g Sandhu sb g flana sb and it kick started.




So to cut the story short there was this first year newly enrolled student from a mussali background. The guy pulled off a chair from our table and then sat by us , poor soul was about to open his tiffin box. upon encountering him that near to his lofty self a turd sitting bedside me lost his cool
"oye mussalia!!! Agli var haydhy bayha ty m Teri sanghi nup Chad sa'n, hodhay paraan ho k bah ja"



I felt extremely disgusted due to my urban morals and manners but couldnt say a word as I was part of the pack of hayenas and the cold drinks gondal sb ordered were yet to reach our table



What do you think are all these 220 million descendants from "gods" or any single one of em ? Dude its just that theyve been rich for a quite a few centuries or decades Das it.


Don't resist the oxymorons like one of my friends,

" hey mentee MA great grand daddy came from syria, we of the warrior race!!!"

OH OK but was he a nai or mochi or any other man who likes to earn his bread through his sweat and blood back there? a JIT wousk suffice, no?

be part of em my man.
 
In my area Sialkot and around we call them Changars / Pakhiwas
Changhars I think is a cast
There is similar nomadic cast Odh Rajput they are involved in manshayat faroshi and other crimes now they are settled people
pakhi was are beggars
 
A couple of years ago these two Pakhiwas/Changar girls (garwi waliyan Naseebo Lal's clan) became famous when they sang justin beeber english songs in a BBC documentary. It seems like their clan of Pakhiwas has given up nomadic life and is settled now in some neighborhood of Lahore.

 
Changhars I think is a cast
There is similar nomadic cast Odh Rajput they are involved in manshayat faroshi and other crimes now they are settled people
pakhi was are beggars

Changars went from Rajasthan to Punjab to Afghanistan to Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Russia and spread to Ukraine

Hey buddy welcome aboard and stop playing the victim card, try to assimilate in the mainstream by using your existing account balance and nationality. Umm any high caste guy gonna offer you a rishta - - - - - - - and after a generation or two later you be some Malak, rana or whatever brand suits you - - - - - -




Noone respects the broke *** and here you are demanding a marshal plan sorta arrangement for a whole good for nothing community, sorry if it hurt your feelings.



you cannot change the genetic modus operandi of the South Asian fellows. They are racist by nature so for you and other underdogs only redemption is moola and things and ways mentioned above.



Let me quote you a real life story.
In my high school days I got invited by a friend to a dawat, so I decided to ride all the way from my city and then later pick him up from his degree college in his village . Upon my arrival he insisted to have some cold drink from the college canteen , we sat among a company of common friends, majority of whom I had no idea about who they were. G rana sb g Sandhu sb g flana sb and it kick started.




So to cut the story short there was this first year newly enrolled student from a mussali background. The guy pulled off a chair from our table and then sat by us , poor soul was about to open his tiffin box. upon encountering him that near to his lofty self a turd sitting bedside me lost his cool
"oye mussalia!!! Agli var haydhy bayha ty m Teri sanghi nup Chad sa'n, hodhay paraan ho k bah ja"



I felt extremely disgusted due to my urban morals and manners but couldnt say a word as I was part of the pack of hayenas and the cold drinks gondal sb ordered were yet to reach our table



What do you think are all these 220 million descendants from "gods" or any single one of em ? Dude its just that theyve been rich for a quite a few centuries or decades Das it.


Don't resist the oxymorons like one of my friends,

" hey mentee MA great grand daddy came from syria, we of the warrior race!!!"

OH OK but was he a nai or mochi or any other man who likes to earn his bread through his sweat and blood back there? a JIT wousk suffice, no?

be part of em my man.

You are a true dunya dar my friend!

Afsos hai ke everything you have written is a 109% true

In my area Sialkot and around we call them Changars / Pakhiwas and their main business is begging, collecting plastic bottles etc....men do nothing only drinking homemade kupi and play cards....only women and children are doing some work even begging and prostitution....

Now their new business is grabbing lands ....first they beg landowners to let them place their temporary jughies and later they refuse to vacate and demand money....
My uncle and my friend already a victims of these scams and later paid handsome amount in order to free their lands / plots.

@war&peace @Brass Knuckles

In Afghanistan the Baloch gypsies (not real Baloch, they are Saraiki speaking nomads related to Changars) had to adopt prostitution

Sadly many of these groups are begging either genuinely or as a career. Some even think begging is honorable work from their faqir ancestors. Those are Jogi in Afghanistan and Tajikistan, they have been there for thousands years and speak Tajik language and have Tajik identity wheres my tribe never begging we are traders and Pashto speaking

A couple of years ago these two Pakhiwas/Changar girls (garwi waliyan Naseebo Lal's clan) became famous when they sang justin beeber english songs in a BBC documentary. It seems like their clan of Pakhiwas has given up nomadic life and is settled now in some neighborhood of Lahore.


Yeah I saw this a few years ago. Initially I heard they were Christian. But later they said they their morher said they are from Reshma’s family. They probably live in one of the sweeper colonies, it looks like one. I also lived in Islamabad in France colony and So quarter
 

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