Article: "Buddhist tourism in Pakistan: The Buddha’s gift to the world"

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Kalasha people's language is directly descended from rigvedic Sanskrit but their indigenous unadulterated religion hardly shares more than "few" aspects with modern Gangu religion of Hindusim originated in Ganga valley. Modern Hiduism is a mixture of the religion of the ancestors of Kalasha Sanskrit speakers and the aboriginal religions of Gangu people in Ganga valley.

You are correct, even their perception of Vedic deities is extremely different from that of the Hindus.
The ORIGINAL Vedic religion formed in the Indus Region from the merging of Aryan and Harrapan religions/beliefs. This religion was contradictory to Hinduism as they were against idol worship, did not follow the caste system, ate meat, and had a separate pantheon. Their social structure would have also been nearly identical to the Biradari system we follow today.

One of these Vedic tribes (Bharatas) were eventually forced to migrate into North India after the Battle of the Ten Kings (as recorded in the Rigvedic), this tribe would go onto conquer the Ganges Region and imposed racial hierarchy through the Varna (caste) system. The mixing of the late Vedic and Gangetic religions/practices would give way to Brahmanism, the predecessor of Hinduism.

haha there is no ancient or modern Hinduism. The Rig Vedic dieties are still venerated in Hinduism in rituals, that also include Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva then incarnations of them.

Vedism contradicts Hinduism in so many ways, they are completely different and distinct religions. No doubt, Hindusim adopted Rig Vedic dieties (though they are significantly different from what was originally portrayed), that does not mean they are the same. Likewise, Vedism and many native Iranic Religions also share the same deities, that does not mean they are the same.

You build idols and temples for these deities, the Vedic people worshiped on open ground and forbade idolatry.

haha that's not Gandharan buddhist. If a robe is the only connection you can find then might as well as add Gautama Buddha who wore a similar robe.

That is a Gandharan statue, among countless other statues which depict similar attire of robes, bangles, arm rings, ornament necklaces, which is identical to what many Pakistani Sufis wear today.

The only major difference is the turban and the facial hair, which can be explained by cultural changes during the later Kushan period which saw beards return to commonality (popularity of having a shaved face was introduced by the Greeks) and the rise of wrapped turbans as opposed to the early ingrained turbans of the Gandharans. During this time, forehead markings also fell out of use. Even some depictions of Buddha during this period, show him with a beard.

That's a mystic figure. It can't be compared to the clothing of that time, which is the point I was making. I'm not talking about the place of origin of those statues. Buddhist at the time do not give much credit to ornaments. But they put Bodhisatva/Rimpoche in elaborate dressing and styles.

It was one of many clothing varieties that existed in modern-day Pakistan and continue to be worn by those who still cling on to the "old ways". Less exquisite and simple clothing (wrapped robes), such as those depicted on the statues of Buddha are also worn by many Pakistani Sufis to this day.

Wiki didn't contradict, wiki said what it is, there are two reports on his place of origin. One is that he is from Central Asia and another that he is from South Asia. But all the sources are Chinese and Japanese which were written after his death.

The pictorial representations also do not substantiate as Chinese and Japanese have habbit of drawing eye so big that they look like eyeballing someone. (Apparently big eyes are represented as such)
Bodhidharma

What part did you not get of him being blue-eyed, light skinned and having reddish/brown hair in Buddhist sources?

No where does these sources say that he came from Central Asia (at-least in the modern-day definition), do not rely on Wikipedia. The Buddhist Sources simply connect his origins to the "Western Regions"; which included Shendu (Indus Region; including Gandhara), Central Asia and Eastern Persia. Since Gandhara was the capital of Buddhism in the region and has provided many other Buddhist scholars before, it is considered the prime candidate for his origins among the academics.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Vedism contradicts Hinduism in so many ways, they are completely different and distinct religions. No doubt, Hindusim adopted Rig Vedic dieties (though they are significantly different from what was originally portrayed), that does not mean they are the same. Likewise, Vedism and many native Iranic Religions also share the same deities, that does not mean they are the same.

You build idols and temples for these deities, the Vedic people worshiped on open ground and forbade idolatry.

Vedas are part of Hinduism. How can Hinduism adopt something of it's own? They are the core of our religion from which all Hindu deities came from. Also, they are as same as Vedas portrayed. Then again, Vedas are just hymns they are not poems that explain different functions. And in any Hindu rituals, Agni, Varuna, Indra are important deities. But are less prominent in practice.

One of these Vedic tribes (Bharatas) were eventually forced to migrate into North India after the Battle of the Ten Kings (as recorded in the Rigvedic), this tribe would go onto conquer the Ganges Region and imposed racial hierarchy through the Varna (caste) system. The mixing of the late Vedic and Gangetic religions/practices would give way to Brahmanism, the predecessor of Hinduism.

Bharatas were not forced to migrate, they won the war and later migrated and conquered more plains conduct Aswametha (a sort of victory parade). Now, Varna system wasn't racial hierarchy it's a social hierarchy based on what they do for a living.

You build idols and temples for these deities, the Vedic people worshiped on open ground and forbade idolatry.

Oh yeah I've seen this in many Zakir Naik BS that quotes Isha Upanishad to say Idolatry is prohibited. Not going to explain why and how that's not what it meant. But, you yourself say 'Vedic Hinduism' prohibit it, rather it must be (according to you) non Vedic Hinduism prohibited it. Because Vedas don't mention anything on building idols is good or not. As I mentioned before, Vedas have Hymns not poetry or directions on how to lead a life.

What part did you not get of him being blue-eyed, light skinned and having reddish/brown hair in Buddhist sources?

What part mention him as Iranian or Central Asian with light skin and brown hair? It is only mentioned as a wide Blue eyed man. Who taught them traditional medicine and martial arts. Tell me any mention of early elaborate martial arts from Central Asia or Iran.
In many Tamil literature (Considered older than Mahabharata), there are elaborate depiction of people with blue eyes and light skin, Blue eyes and dark skin around the world in early migration. There are still South Indians with green or blue eyes.

 

[Republic]

Buddhism footprints in our areas of western Punjab are still quite visible, for example we have "malangs" who do crazy kind of "dhamals" at sufi shrines wearing very sophisticated attires. My theory is that this is left over of our ancient "Buddhist" ancestors "meditation dances" that got integrated with Sufi shrine dhamals in Punjab, have a look at it, it screams ancient local Buddhist meditation routines

Dhamal has nothing to do with Buddhism. It is a pure Sufi thing. A separately developed and completely innovative idea of getting the trance/Dhyan. (Being with God/ being aware of self being and universe/God.)
My English is not good in explaining spiritual matters. Please bear with it.

By the way, Many scholars say that Sufism was there before Prophet Muhammad.
Thanks.

You people had a Budha stupa in Mohen Jo daro situated beside the great bath.
But some Historians ingnorantly called it of Kushana era because of two things.
1. There were some Kushana coins found around stupa.
2.They ignorantly believed that Budhism was started by Gautam Buddha.

(Now an Italian historian had got construction materials authenticated by experts and it is proved that entire structure including Great bath and Stupa were built in same age and with same materials. Finding Kushana coins only means that this stupa was still intact in Kushana era and devotees used to visit this place and offer coins/offering.)

Budhism is a traditional religion of Indian subcontinent and it has great understanding of God/Universe in its original Hinayana teachings.
There were many budhas before Gautama who preached and stupa were built upon their remains.
Faxian himself has wrote about visiting the stupas of earlier Budhas in his travelogues.
Budhism was the religion of Harappan and Post Harappan people and all Indian subcontinent till fifth century AD.
It gradually changed from second century AD to Seventh century AD.
You people have never shown interest due to your religious apprehension other wise Buddha tourism circle type thing would have given you more dollors than entire CPEC.
Thanks.
Edit: I made two separate posts but they automatically got merged. Sorry for inconvenience of reading a lengthy post.

 

[Abdussamad]

The recent attack on lahore airport will certainly encourage tourists to visit pakistan. It is so safe here!

 

[Verve]

AOA brothers and sisters. ALHUMDULILAH I have just published an article about Pakistan's rich Buddhist history in one of the top Buddhist magazines in the world.

This piece is quite close to my heart as it shares how much Buddhist history and heritage there is in Pakistan. I wanted it to be featured by a Buddhist magazine so people of the faith and others worldwide would understand the significance of Pakistan vis-a-vis Buddhism. The article has beautiful images of Pakistan as well as details about Buddhist artifacts and sights in the country. I hope someone abroad gets motivated and travels to Pakistan because of all this rich heritage. And I hope you share this article as much as it helps the nation's narrative. I also want to thank Buddha Weekly for publishing this. PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

Here is the link. Hope you like it and share.

https://buddhaweekly.com/buddhist-t...-20-picture-tour-of-important-buddhist-sites/

This is excellent!

Thank you.

 

[Rusty]

I always love reading about Budhism in Pakistan.
It always made me sad that Budhism was expermineted from our lands and people were forced to convert to Hinduism.

But I it turned out well for us anyways as we were able to be free again with Islam.

 

[Chhatrapati]

I always love reading about Budhism in Pakistan.
It always made me sad that Budhism was expermineted from our lands and people were forced to convert to Hinduism.

But I it turned out well for us anyways as we were able to be free again with Islam.

The only reason Buddhism went into decline was the onslaught of Vedanta Philosophy. Buddhism expanded through debates and discussions between teachers at a grassroots level. The one who lost become winner's follower. So did his disciples.

This very same thing happened to Buddhist during Adi Sankara (788-820) (A Theologian), he traveled all over India and through debates defeated all the Buddhist monks of the time. Also he practically united different sects in Hinduism into one after defeating the leader of those sects. Finally attaining sarvanja peeth (Throne of knowledge and wisdom), the place is located in today's Azad Jammu and Kashmir. The temple is in ruins obviously. Like most temples in such areas.

 

[Jackdaws]

I hope for peace in the subcontinent one day so people can travel freely and enjoy the great culture that this region has. I give it 40 odd years.

 

[Rusty]

The only reason Buddhism went into decline was the onslaught of Vedanta Philosophy. Buddhism expanded through debates and discussions between teachers at a grassroots level. The one who lost become winner's follower. So did his disciples.

This very same thing happened to Buddhist during Adi Sankara (788-820) (A Theologian), he traveled all over India and through debates defeated all the Buddhist monks of the time. Also he practically united different sects in Hinduism into one after defeating the leader of those sects. Finally attaining sarvanja peeth (Throne of knowledge and wisdom), the place is located in today's Azad Jammu and Kashmir. The temple is in ruins obviously. Like most temples in such areas.

India with 80% HIndu population and nearly a billion Hindus:
mUsLiM fOrCeD cOnVeRsIoN oF hInDuS

Pakistan with 0% Budhists remaining and only HIndus left:
tHeRe WaS nO fOrCeD cOnVeRsIoN, OnLy DeBaTeS.

I hope for peace in the subcontinent one day so people can travel freely and enjoy the great culture that this region has. I give it 40 odd years.

weren't you the same one who was mocking us for "begging for peace" ?

 

[Jackdaws]

India with 80% HIndu population and nearly a billion Hindus:
mUsLiM fOrCeD cOnVeRsIoN oF hInDuS

Pakistan with 0% Budhists remaining and only HIndus left:
tHeRe WaS nO fOrCeD cOnVeRsIoN, OnLy DeBaTeS.


weren't you the same one who was mocking us for "begging for peace" ?

Must be some military thread where I was lied to. In general, I am all for peace. But I don't see my current administration interested in it - they get votes via a nationalist agenda. And Pak is on a self destructive streak.

 

[Rusty]

Must be some military thread where I was lied to. In general, I am all for peace. But I don't see my current administration interested in it - they get votes via a nationalist agenda. And Pak is on a self destructive streak.

At least you admit your side is not interested in peace.
That's a start.

And pakistan well be just fine. You should be more worried about Greece.

 

[Chhatrapati]

India with 80% HIndu population and nearly a billion Hindus:
mUsLiM fOrCeD cOnVeRsIoN oF hInDuS

Pakistan with 0% Budhists remaining and only HIndus left:
tHeRe WaS nO fOrCeD cOnVeRsIoN, OnLy DeBaTeS.

If they did actually convert them through debates and discussion. Let's not go beyond the scope of discussion.

Buddhism became non-existent in Pakistan after Arab invasion the last rulers who are Buddhist being Rais. Today's Pakistan (& Afghanistan) was effectively under Muslim empires since 1000 CE.

 

[Jackdaws]

At least you admit your side is not interested in peace.
That's a start.

And pakistan well be just fine. You should be more worried about Greece.

My current govt doesn't see the need to engage in dialogue.

 

[Rusty]

If they did actually convert them through debates and discussion. Let's not go beyond the scope of discussion.

Buddhism became non-existent in Pakistan after Arab invasion the last rulers who are Buddhist being Rais. Today's Pakistan (& Afghanistan) was effectively under Muslim empires since 1000 CE.

I am just pointing out the flaws in Hindus logic who say that Muslims were forced to convert.
If you want to claim that, that's fine, but then you also have to accept that Budhists were also forced to convert to Hinduism.

And you are patently wrong about Bhudhism dissapearing after arabs (this would be Hindus wet dream )
We have first hand acounts of the first arabs in the Indus who tell us that everyone there was Hindu.

 

[Chhatrapati]

I am just pointing out the flaws in Hindus logic who say that Muslims were forced to convert.
If you want to claim that, that's fine, but then you also have to accept that Budhists were also forced to convert to Hinduism.

And you are patently wrong about Bhudhism dissapearing after arabs (this would be Hindus wet dream )
We have first hand acounts of the first arabs in the Indus who tell us that everyone there was Hindu.

It is a well recorded fact in history. Why should I accept something that never happened just to make someone feel good? I don't care what others did, for our part many Hindu Kings have destroyed Buddhist temples, in parts of South India Kings have banned public practice of opposite sect's practices in Hinduism itself.

Again, I'm talking from recorded history, not based on some dream. If you're are too lazy to look into your history, then stay away from the discussion than coming with denials. See what happened to Zoroastrianism in Persia. Same thing happened to other religions in the region.