Army destroyed Kargil papers?

[Impasse]

This forum is all about abusing each other.. How professional..

 

[Impasse]

Here's the problem..
The IA had to destroy those papers to avoid being held accountable by its public...
Out here.. every proof of misdemeanors exists and yet nobody wishes to hold anybody accountable.

Both in 65 and Kargil.. there were military surprises involved..
and in such a situation.. particularly to boost the morale of the nation and troops.. false heroes..mistakes..are hidden away.
Medals are awarded to those who actually displayed cowardice..and those that truly fought to the last breath..are covered up..favoritism.. PR.. its dirty.
This destroying of critical documents isnt just restricted to India or Pakistan.

Are you a think tank?

 

[SQ8]

Are you a think tank?

No.. I am a Human popsicle.

 

[Xeric]

Yeah we are not very good at it. Perhaps a lesson from Pakistan will help us.. Remember the 1965 war and how Air Marshal Nur Khan spilt the beans later.

What "spilting" beans has to do with this? Other than that some good officer of yours did the right thing by bring this to lime light - believe me there's nothing bad in doing so.

On topic : The papers are related to pre-war patrolling and how some lax officers on the ground discarded the warning of the ground troops about sighting suspicious movements along the LoC and also the warning from the local shepherds in order to save thier skin from the post-war enquiry that was set up to analyse the reasons behind such a big intelligence failure. Please dont tell me officers in the PA dont do that in order to save their skin.

Not exactly.

The news doesnt mention that the papers were burnt by some one officer or for that matter a group of officers, nor does it make a mention of a mischief by officers who were indeed trying to 'save their skin from an inquiry'. Instead the papers were burnt by a BOARD OF OFFICERS. Now what does it tell us - being in the military i can tell you that there is a procedure to be followed whenever a secret document has to be destroyed for any reason which includes:

-the document becomes unuseful,

-the document have outlived its utility,

-the document is no more required as it was regarding an exercise/drill and now as that the exercise have been completed there is no fun in storing the papers

-a certain amount of time has lapsed and the document either has to be declassified or has to be destroyed to keep custody of secret documents to the bare minimum.

Now as we know now that whenever any such document is to be destroyed there is a certain procedure that has to be followed in any good organization, in this case the IA, which it did. Normally a Board of Officer is composed either at the behest of the commander of that unit/brigade/div HQ (in case the originator of that docu was the same commander) or the board is detailed by the higher HQ (in case the documents were issued by the senior HQ).

So now as the news tells us that a BOARD OF OFFICER did the fine job of destroying the docu, the docu were indeed destroyed on the instructions of a senior HQ or the incumbent commander, meaning thereby a proper procedure was followed as per the SOPs and the docu were burnt legitimately/legally. So your assumption that some officer(s) destroyed the doc to save his @rse doesnt stand at all because if that had been the case the dude(s) must be destroyed the docu without following the procedure i.e. must have scrapped the docu from the storage without the knowledge of anyone. But that didnt happen!

Instead a proper procedure was followed thus implying that the Army high command was indeed in complete picture of the doing (burning of these papers) or should i say, it was done on the instructions of the IA?!

So, if we accept your '@ss saving' argument it would be like somebody destroying a fake cheque after (legally) getting it from the bank that bounced it or someone destroying a credit card receipt which was used to buy **** from his father's credit card that too after the father has seen the receipt and kept it in his record!!

In short :

• This does not affect the results of the war itself and the courage of the Indian soldiers who went beyond their call of duty.. Rather this is an attempt by some corrupt officers to save themselves from the tribunal.
  
• secondly it is not the Army who did this, but some corrupt middle-level officers who did this to save themselves.

Again wrong.

Infact, the papers could have revealed the following:

Army destroyed Kargil papers?

The letters between the 121 Infantry Brigade & 3 Infantry Division could have proved the following:

- Additional equipment demanded by 121 Infantry Brigade to shore up defences was denied to them

- Areas weak in defence were identified & higher authorities were alerted, contrary to Army claims

- The Brigade was not given items like telescopes by the Division headquarters despite a request

So infact the destruction of these papers were not with the consent of some officers trying to save themselves but the 'entire' Army itself!

 

[KS]

What "spilting" beans has to do with this? Other than that some good officer of yours did the right thing by bring this to lime light - beleive me there's nothing bad in doing so.

Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war -DAWN - National; September 6, 2005

Not exactly.

The news doesnt mention that the papers were burnt by some one officer or for that matter a group of officers, nor does it make a mention of a mischief by officers who were indeed trying to 'save their skin from an inquiry'. Instead the papers were burnt by a BOARD OF OFFICERS. Now what does it tell us - being in the military i can tell you that as per the procedure whenever a secret document has to be destroyed for any reason which includes:

-the document becomes unuseful,

-the document have outlived its utility,

-the document is no more required as it was regarding an exercise/drill and now as that the exercise have been completed there is no fun in storing the papers

-a certain amount of time has lapsed and the document either has to be declassified or has to be destroyed to keep custody of secret documents to the bare minimum.

Now whenever any such document is to be destroyed there is a certain procedure that has to be followed in any good organization (in this case the IA) which it did. To do so a Board of Officer is composed either at the behest of the commander of that unit/brigade/div HQ (in case the originator of that docu was the same commander) or the board is detailed by the higher HQ (in case the documents were issued by the senior HQ).

So now as the news tells us that a BOARD OF OFFICER did the fine job of destroying the docu, the docu were indeed destroyed on the instructions of a senior HQ or the incumbent commander, meaning thereby a proper procedure was followed as per the SOPs and the docu were burnt legitimately/legally. So your assumption that some officer(s) destroyed the doc to save his @rse doesnt stand at all because if that had been the case the dude(s) must be destroyed the docu without following the procedure i.e. must have scrapped the docu from the storage with the knowledge of anyone. But that didnt happen!

Instead a proper procedure was followed thus implying that the Army high command was indeed in complete picture of the doing (burning of these papers) or should i say, it was done on the instructions of the IA?!

So, if we accept your '@ss saving' argument it would be like somebody destroying a fake cheque after (legally) getting it from the bank that bounced it or someone destroying a credit card receipt which was used to buy **** from his father's credit card that too after the father has seen the receipt and kept it in his record!!

That is exactly what I said,

Crucial letters that reveal that the army was alerted of an enemy (here implying the immediate superiors of Brig. Singh) buildup at Kargil months before the war were destroyed.

The army affidavit came in reply to a petition by Brigadier Singh challenging charges of dereliction of duty. He had claimed that he alerted forces between December 1998 & 14 January, 1999.

Good reasons for some of the officers to burn the papers which could have indicted them of de-reliction of duty after the investigation by the Tribunal.

My bad I said middle level officers. Seems like the culprits are a little above.

Again wrong.

Infact, the papers could have revealed the following:


So infact the destruction of these papers were not with the consent of some officers trying to save themselves but the 'entire' Army itself!

Could have and not Would have.

And not the entire army, but a few corrupt fools at the higher level who wanted to save themselves from the ignominy that would have resulted from the Tribunal's findings.

Again this takes nothing away from the actual ground troops who acquitted themselves with flying colors and if you are to believe, without even the necessary fighting equipment.

 

[ice_man]

No.. I am a Human popsicle.

good one

 

[IND151]

by Jana
Quote:

Originally Posted by IND151
i think destroyed papers contained proofs about Chinese involvement in kargil war.my opinion is china did some deal with India to hide this proofs and India destroyed papers off coarse the china must have offered something immensely valuable in return.

If that is so then its a big hypocrisy by Bharati govt with bharatis who are day on and day of are fed hater mongering against China.

do expose it atleast the war hysteria in India against China will be subsidised

what i wrote was my opinion.there is no war hysteria in India. we are not fed hater mongering against China. the fact is we always keep eye on china as she is not unreliable. what i wanted to say is there might be Chinese involvement in kargil war which china wanted and wants to hide and they did deal with India offered something immensely vital and in return India destroyed papers. may be India has copies of them at present to keep china under pressure.. may be china was afraid that those papers may threaten china's image on global level.

 

[Xeric]

Nur Khan reminisces ’65 war -DAWN - National; September 6, 2005

Are you feeling insecure?

Was there even a need to posting the link? My concern was the linkage between Nur's and the newspiece under discussion.

That is exactly what I said,

If you have accepted 'your bad' how can you use the world EXACTLY again?

Good reasons for some of the officers to burn the papers which could have indicted them of de-reliction of duty after the investigation by the Tribunal.

My bad I said middle level officers. Seems like the culprits are a little above.

Anywaz, what you said was not what i had said in reply.

You were trying to make a few mid level officer (or for that matter some high level officers after you have changed your stand) the scapegoat for the deed and i on the other hand is accusing the IA itself to be a party in the 'crime. Got it?

Could have and not Would have.

And not the entire army, but a few corrupt fools at the higher level who wanted to save themselves from the ignominy that would have resulted from the Tribunal's findings.

Nada.

Again this takes nothing away from the actual ground troops who acquitted themselves with flying colors and if you are to believe, without even the necessary fighting equipment.

Nobody has pointed out fingers over the performance of soldiers on ground, so no need to go emotional - this i am saying while keeping aside the actual performance of your troops as this has been discussed at length previously on numerous threads and doesnt merit any more focus.

 

[paritosh]

The paper's were burnt because they showed the army high commands incapacity to heed warnings and act quickly.they had the intel on the invasion but failed to react on time resulting in so many deaths.it is shameful that the culprits haven't been dealt with.I do not understand why there is so much of chest thumping going on about this thread...