Are Taliban following in the footsteps of Tamil Tigers?

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The proper interpretation was support of Taliban and defending them as fighters for freedom, which if you go by the threads here is quite obvious in many Pakistanis minds.

review the same threads and understand that there IS a distinction between TTP (Pakistani taleban) and Afghan taleban --which is a purely Afghan movement which received our diplomatic support.

also understand that Pakistan, a nation of 180 million people, will inevitably have people with different views and ideas on things....

from a purely Afghan point of view, anybody fighting those who are perceived to be invaders, are technically fighting for their freedom and nation.....people join Afghan taleban for different reasons

a.) money
b.) some form of nationalism
c.) influence
d.) revenge
e.) other



''other'' can pertain to anything.....it can be ethnic reasons; political; etc.


Pakistani taleban is a recent phenomenon, though militants from other banned outfits (jihadist/sectarian/etc) have seemed to infiltrate their ranks as well.


and in national elections, even moderate Islamist parties have lost any major seats every time. So to claim Pakistanis are ''religious bigots'' or overtly talebanic type supporters --then dear, you should pick up some books after head examination

 

[Irfan Baloch]

That statement was based on the replies on this thread and specifically quoted too. You initially questioned my intent now you are trying to twist out of it.
Where did I mention Pkaistanis support bombing food camps? .

sorry you failed.....

you made a sweeping statement about Pakistanis supporting taliban
taliban kill civilians so you are implying Pakistanis support killing civilians and food camps.

dont act so innocent here. you tried to clarify but still you cant read your own sentence... if you had said "some" Pakistanis support taliban then it would have had merit but you willingly made a gross statement about Pakistanis supporting Taliban..

for your information, I am one of those Pakistanis who condemns all forms of terrorism specially against the civilians and I dont discriminate.. for me the victims of Mombai, Lahore, Karachi , Bajur, Kabul etc are all the same.. they died without a fault of their own.. no human deserves to die the way the civilians have got killed either delibrately or due to collateral damage.

people who support Taliban dont come on these forums.. mind you this forum is very much anti taliban and pro-army.. Taliban are decralred enemies of Pakistan so their support is impossible.

and I dont see any difference in Afghan or Pakistani taliban and many members share this view. those who dont get the chance to give their reasons and it would be wrong to gag them just because we dont like what they are saying. but let me assure you no one survives on this forum who praises terrorism and the clever d1cks who try to be smart by brushing Islam & Pakistanis as root of terrorism also dont last long.

 

[bandit]

sorry you failed.....

you made a sweeping statement about Pakistanis supporting taliban
taliban kill civilians so you are implying Pakistanis support killing civilians and food camps.

dont act so innocent here. you tried to clarify but still you cant read your own sentence... if you had said "some" Pakistanis support taliban then it would have had merit but you willingly made a gross statement about Pakistanis supporting Taliban..

for your information, I am one of those Pakistanis who condemns all forms of terrorism specially against the civilians and I dont discriminate.. for me the victims of Mombai, Lahore, Karachi , Bajur, Kabul etc are all the same.. they died without a fault of their own.. no human deserves to die the way the civilians have got killed either delibrately or due to collateral damage.

people who support Taliban dont come on these forums.. mind you this forum is very much anti taliban and pro-army.. Taliban are decralred enemies of Pakistan so their support is impossible.

and I dont see any difference in Afghan or Pakistani taliban and many members share this view. those who dont get the chance to give their reasons and it would be wrong to gag them just because we dont like what they are saying. but let me assure you no one survives on this forum who praises terrorism and the clever d1cks who try to be smart by brushing Islam & Pakistanis as root of terrorism also dont last long.

Dear man what are you trying to prove?
You yourself say people who support them aren't welcome here, that does mean they exist in Pakistan, right? And even without your accepting so, it is patently obvious that Taliban does enjoy support in Pakistan otherwise how else are they existing and bombing away at will? Places like bajaur that have born the brunt of an all out war are still being targeted by taliban aren't they. Like it or not people here do give out statements implying Taliban as freedom fighters and fighting a foreign occupation.

The taleban as god thinking has so much support among Pakistanis i doubt it'll be gone anytime soon.

This is the statement you are hinging your whole argument on. Where does it say or imply 'all' Pakistanis support Taleban.
It does say it has so much support which implies not all of the support.
Closing you eyes to the reality doesnt make it go away, years of support for the mighty Taliban destroying the big great evil soviet empire will take some time to go.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

did it EVER occur to you and people like you that taleban would not be able to function without some popular support in Afghanistan itself?

if news media is to be believed, 72% of that country is effectively under taleban control or sway/influence.

Afghanistan is not a country where unpopular people last very long.....soviets learned it the hard way. So obviously they have enough support to survive in Afghanistan. If anything, 9 years after the initial onslaught they are more powerful now.

Hopefully whatever happens, it will be to the interests of Afghanistan ... AND HER IMMEDIATE NEIGHBOURS


you are very naiive to think that the key to taleban destruction lies in Pakistan....no sir, it does not. As usual, too much credit to Pakistan where it is undue.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

did it EVER occur to you and people like you that taleban would not be able to function without some popular support in Afghanistan itself?

if news media is to be believed, 72% of that country is effectively under taleban control or sway/influence.

Afghanistan is not a country where unpopular people last very long.....soviets learned it the hard way. So obviously they have enough support to survive in Afghanistan. If anything, 9 years after the initial onslaught they are more powerful now.

Hopefully whatever happens, it will be to the interests of Afghanistan ... AND HER IMMEDIATE NEIGHBOURS


you are very naiive to think that the key to taleban destruction lies in Pakistan....no sir, it does not. As usual, too much credit to Pakistan where it is undue.

very well said brother..
the point which is blindingly obvious is conveniently ignored by him. using his same argument then Afghanistan is a lost cause for NATO.

the ethnic Pushton dont recognise the durand line so they move either way at will. and just like you said.. the Afghan insurgency is not soley being fought by Pakistani tribesmen, the Afghan Pathans will take it as an insult. the fight against the occupation forces is going on since they set their foot in the name of war on terror to nation building. Taliban have successfully turned this war in their favour by using the ethnic card because Americans fell prey to deceiving Tajiks for whon settling their age old rivalry against Pashtons was more important than the peace in Afghanistan so appart from Karzai, the Pushtons were virtually shunned from the Afghan setup. this strategy didnt work and the current situation is the proof.


the problem with bandit ill thought and malicious statement is that he is taking a swipe at the religion and the Pakistani nation in one sentence which now he insists was an innocent expression of reality.

he says by taleban as god thinking has so much support among Pakistanis
he doesnt mean "All" Pakistanis.. but he misses the fact that the statement is unqualified.. "so much" is subjective and misleading and in Pakistan's case totally wrong.. had it been the case
then Pakistan Army's operation in Sawat and tribal areas would have turned into a Rawandan civil war.... Taliban did have and still have support but not as he likes to belive and portray it.

his ending statement is again inflammatory .. because America and Saudia along with Pakistan were also major partners of Jihad against the soviets and have all shared the consiquences he is so smugly pointing towards Pakistan only.

 

[Ahmad]

Taliban in AFghanistan do have support, anybody who deny that is living in a different world, the same thing can be said about the Taliban in Pakistan, they cant survive without support in Fata/KP. The Taliban in both of these s countries are an ethno nationalist group as well as religious fanatics, as it was stated above the Pashtoons of Afghansitan dont recognize the durand line and consider Fata/KP as afghanistan's land, not pakistan, they freely move on the other side of the border, and come back, they(TTP and AT) help each other and have always helped each other in the past, even before the Nato came to afghanistan, the paksitani taliban and tribesmen were fighting alongside their counterpart in afghanistan, they were killed and taken prisoners in large numbers in the fightintgs. There is one solution for the problem of Afghansitan, get all ethnics of afghanistan together so they all have their fair share of the gov, everybody's political, social, cultural, liguistic etc rights must be protected by law and in practice, right now all the major ethnic groups are in oppostion, the taliban are fighting, the tajiks are the largest political oppostion, uzbeks and hazaras have even worse sitiuation than the others. if that doest work then get afghansitan partitioned, enough is enough and people have suffered beyond the imaginations of people around the world and in this forum, you simply dont know their sufering, hope this partion will put an end to everybody's misary, everybody walks in different direction and do whatever they want with their peice of land.

 

[muse]

Ahmad

How might you respond to persons who will suggest that it is optimistic view to imagine that should Afghanistan be partitioned, that the Tajik, really just the Panjshiri, would be safe ? in other words, what makes you think the so called "Tajik" will be safe in a Afghanistan that is partitioned? Who would support such a move? After all, why would India or Russia support such a move (people who live in glass houses...)

 

[Ahmad]

Ahmad

How might you respond to persons who will suggest that it is optimistic view to imagine that should Afghanistan be partitioned, that the Tajik, really just the Panjshiri, would be safe ? in other words, what makes you think the so called "Tajik" will be safe in a Afghanistan that is partitioned? Who would support such a move? After all, why would India or Russia support such a move (people who live in glass houses...)

If nothing else works, then partition could be another posibility, although very unpleasant to even talk about it, but that is how afghansitan have been walking in this direction. the country is already partitioned. i dont know who will support such a move, but nothing is imposible in this world, we had the partition of indian sub cont and then partition of pakistan after that, it was difficult and painful, but it was worth it at the end. I personally hope this doesn happen, but in such a climate you cant rule it out.

 

[muse]

You have a point about partition of India and Pakistan - but of course those are very different - East Pakistan was separated by more than a thousand miles of India and Pakistan was partitioned out of British India in a constitutional exercise - neither of these exist in present day Afghanistan -- The more the idea of breaking up Afghanistan into pieces is discussed, the greater the suspicion and ambition among the Pashtun.

Generally ignored is the reality of political awareness among the populations of Afghanistan, as a result of their struggle against the Rus - the various ethnicities are conscious of their sacrifice, their success and their self affirmed rights - the American disaster that was Bonn must be discarded and a new made by and for Afghans concord created to allow Afghanistan to exist as a genuine republic -- For this to happen the US and NATO have to evacuate Afghanistan.

 

[Ahmad]

You have a point about partition of India and Pakistan - but of course those are very different - East Pakistan was separated by more than a thousand miles of India and Pakistan was partitioned out of British India in a constitutional exercise - neither of these exist in present day Afghanistan -- The more the idea of breaking up Afghanistan into pieces is discussed, the greater the suspicion and ambition among the Pashtun.

Generally ignored is the reality of political awareness among the populations of Afghanistan, as a result of their struggle against the Rus - the various ethnicities are conscious of their sacrifice, their success and their self affirmed rights - the American disaster that was Bonn must be discarded and a new made by and for Afghans concord created to allow Afghanistan to exist as a genuine republic -- For this to happen the US and NATO have to evacuate Afghanistan.

brother muse,
Hope this never happens, this is not good in my opinion, countries should be formed based on ethnic lines, in case of afghansitan it is badly divided on ethnic basis-sadly. the country does have an official name of afghanistan, but in reality it is partitioned. problem of afghanistgan goes back to roughly 100 years back when pashtoon ruling elite started suppresing everybody else in the name of pashton superiority, what we see today is didnt mushroom at once, it was built up over time and the soviet invasion only gave it a different dimention, although the non pashtoon suffering is so bad even today, but sadly among the pakistani friends this suffering have never been recognized, things didnt start to get worse from bonn, we had it long before that, even today the non pashtons are not better off, but at least they arent as bad as during the taliban and a dozen decades back. our pashton brothers can get as much ambitious as they want, but that will get nobody nowhere, instead we will all pay the price with our blood and that will include our pashtons as well. As i earlier said in my post, a true guarantee in constituion and practice is needed for every ethnic group not just for pashtoons as it was in the past and still it is so that everybody feel that afghanistan is their country and eventually everybody work for the betterment of the country, if not that, then i dont know what will be the other solution-I mean a solution which truely serves the interests of afghanistan and its people, not the interests of other countries.

 

[muse]

Ahmad

I did not mean for you to understand that problems did not exist before Bonn, my point was that Bonn was a historic opportunity to create a new and improved Afghanistan, instead, it fell back on the same kinds of qualities that all peoples of Afghanistan detest, namely pettiness and vengefulness -

I for cannot agree that countries should be organized along ethnic lines, I think you do not believe what you wrote and that it is a reflection of despair and frustration, because you know, how many Pashtuns mothers are Hazara and you know how many families are Pashtun mother or father and Tajik mother and father -- really the ethnicity is not a problem to ordinary people, what is a problem is the political organization which they experience and if I may suggest, it is the brutishness of life in such a political organization of the country -- when one group is being set against another, be sure that someone is making some serious money out of it - it's like a magic trick where the magician makes you busy with some mysterious nonsense, while the real business is being done out of your attention.

I know it's not my place and that I cannot know your experience, I just wanted to add some things for you to consider -- you know in another thread I had suggested that no Pakistani interests are served by a Afghan nation in distress or broken up in pieces - but consider, what if that idea becomes the plaything of some ambitious persons in Pakistan? What if the state then is left to respond by arresting this development by gobbling up bits and pieces as part of a new idea,a new vision of the nation and state, how do you suppose Pakistan's immediate neighbor to the east may respond to that? how do you think Iran may respond to the opportunity to reconstitute or "make whole" it's province of Khorrasan?

Yes, bloodshed on a huge scale - something that must be avoided - and careful of these Americans, they are great lovers, they fall hard when they fall, but when they come to their senses, change happens fast.

 

[unicorn]

Taliban in AFghanistan do have support, anybody who deny that is living in a different world, the same thing can be said about the Taliban in Pakistan, they cant survive without support in Fata/KP. The Taliban in both of these s countries are an ethno nationalist group as well as religious fanatics, as it was stated above the Pashtoons of Afghansitan dont recognize the durand line and consider Fata/KP as afghanistan's land, not pakistan, they freely move on the other side of the border, and come back, they(TTP and AT) help each other and have always helped each other in the past, even before the Nato came to afghanistan, the paksitani taliban and tribesmen were fighting alongside their counterpart in afghanistan, they were killed and taken prisoners in large numbers in the fightintgs. There is one solution for the problem of Afghansitan, get all ethnics of afghanistan together so they all have their fair share of the gov, everybody's political, social, cultural, liguistic etc rights must be protected by law and in practice, right now all the major ethnic groups are in oppostion, the taliban are fighting, the tajiks are the largest political oppostion, uzbeks and hazaras have even worse sitiuation than the others. if that doest work then get afghansitan partitioned, enough is enough and people have suffered beyond the imaginations of people around the world and in this forum, you simply dont know their sufering, hope this partion will put an end to everybody's misary, everybody walks in different direction and do whatever they want with their peice of land.

I don't think TTP have support from FATA unlike the freedom fighters in Afghanistan.Your statement about TTP Taliban getting support from tribal regions actually contradicts with the mass evacuation of the local people during every military operations.

Also the contempt of Hamid Karzai against the Americans which he is showing for some time suggests that ethnic groups are actually coming to the common terms regarding the major American issues.Will you agree that we are not witnessing any kind of retaliatory act from Taliban against the government for quite some time.

 

[Ahmad]

Ahmad

I did not mean for you to understand that problems did not exist before Bonn, my point was that Bonn was a historic opportunity to create a new and improved Afghanistan, instead, it fell back on the same kinds of qualities that all peoples of Afghanistan detest, namely pettiness and vengefulness -

I for cannot agree that countries should be organized along ethnic lines, I think you do not believe what you wrote and that it is a reflection of despair and frustration, because you know, how many Pashtuns mothers are Hazara and you know how many families are Pashtun mother or father and Tajik mother and father -- really the ethnicity is not a problem to ordinary people, what is a problem is the political organization which they experience and if I may suggest, it is the brutishness of life in such a political organization of the country -- when one group is being set against another, be sure that someone is making some serious money out of it - it's like a magic trick where the magician makes you busy with some mysterious nonsense, while the real business is being done out of your attention.

I know it's not my place and that I cannot know your experience, I just wanted to add some things for you to consider -- you know in another thread I had suggested that no Pakistani interests are served by a Afghan nation in distress or broken up in pieces - but consider, what if that idea becomes the plaything of some ambitious persons in Pakistan? What if the state then is left to respond by arresting this development by gobbling up bits and pieces as part of a new idea,a new vision of the nation and state, how do you suppose Pakistan's immediate neighbor to the east may respond to that? how do you think Iran may respond to the opportunity to reconstitute or "make whole" it's province of Khorrasan?

Yes, bloodshed on a huge scale - something that must be avoided - and careful of these Americans, they are great lovers, they fall hard when they fall, but when they come to their senses, change happens fast.

I do agree with you that political parties make alot of negative contribution to this bussiness, but it is all not about political parties, this poison have gone to the households as well, i remember long ago my brother(god bless him, he was killed) and uncle used to have many unpleasant ethnic based debates with each other. you can imagine how bad it is, uncle and nephew cant get along, because they they had different ethnic affiliation. it is truely depressing, how long can we go like this, i dont know. the outsiders including paksitan and india have made it even worse for us. There is only one way for all this Bullshitt to be settled, everybody must have equal rights, be it culture, language, political and social rights etc, otherwise there is no solution for it especially it has turned ugly because of interference from various countries.

 

[Ahmad]

I don't think TTP have support from FATA unlike the freedom fighters in Afghanistan.Your statement about TTP Taliban getting support from tribal regions actually contradicts with the mass evacuation of the local people during every military operations.

Also the contempt of Hamid Karzai against the Americans which he is showing for some time suggests that ethnic groups are actually coming to the common terms regarding the major American issues.Will you agree that we are not witnessing any kind of retaliatory act from Taliban against the government for quite some time.

Believe whatever you want to believe buddy, pretending doesnt take you anywhere.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

brother muse,
Hope this never happens, this is not good in my opinion, countries should be formed based on ethnic lines, in case of afghansitan it is badly divided on ethnic basis-sadly. the country does have an official name of afghanistan, but in reality it is partitioned. problem of afghanistgan goes back to roughly 100 years back when pashtoon ruling elite started suppresing everybody else in the name of pashton superiority, what we see today is didnt mushroom at once, it was built up over time and the soviet invasion only gave it a different dimention, although the non pashtoon suffering is so bad even today, but sadly among the pakistani friends this suffering have never been recognized, things didnt start to get worse from bonn, we had it long before that, even today the non pashtons are not better off, but at least they arent as bad as during the taliban and a dozen decades back. our pashton brothers can get as much ambitious as they want, but that will get nobody nowhere, instead we will all pay the price with our blood and that will include our pashtons as well. As i earlier said in my post, a true guarantee in constituion and practice is needed for every ethnic group not just for pashtoons as it was in the past and still it is so that everybody feel that afghanistan is their country and eventually everybody work for the betterment of the country, if not that, then i dont know what will be the other solution-I mean a solution which truely serves the interests of afghanistan and its people, not the interests of other countries.

assalam alaikum

Agree with what u said but this wont happens until the americans and nato r there u afghans must come closer and talk to each other and i hope the neighboring countries should help in this process and not dictate u.

Partition will make things worse it will give chance to u.s and nato to stay in the region in pretext of many reasons.

U r wrong that ppl dont care about ur ppl years ago when there was an earthquak ( or some kind of natural disaster ) in afghanistan a yameni ( who might never saw the school) asked me is it right there is some kind of natural disaster in afghanistan when i replied in yes he had tears in his eyes and made dua for u ppl and for the peace for u ppl ( i 4get the year may be it was after americans enter afghanistan ).

If a yemeni who dont know much of the politics feel for u , then believe me there r many ppl who make dua crying for the safety and peace of the ppl of afghanistan ( for all the ethnics not only for the pushtoons) u never met them but yes these ppl r there.

TARIQ