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Anti-Ship Ballistic missile (ASBM), a must have or overrated toy??

jhungary

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While the latest Dongfeng 21D entered service as the sole player of the market, coming with a tag "Carrier Slayer" make navy in the world think this is the end of Aircraft Carrier Dominance in navies. Where the idea of 1 missile, 1 carrier is very tempting, but does it really work like it said it would do? In this article, i will use my limited knowledge on Navy to go over the ASBM and it's pros and cons.

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First, let's talk about how ASBM works.

For a ASBM to launch, it need to fulfil 3 stages before firing the actual missile.

Stage 1.) Acquiring a Target.

As ASBM are generally targetting large ship over the horizon, beyond visual range, first you need to acquire a target, which by mean of Radar Interception, Calculation of Target range and size, and finally visually identify the target. Radar only show you the size of the ship, it did not tell you whether it is a Naval warship or Civilian Ship. Calculation of size and information processing can rule out friendly ship in the area but you would not know if it was your intented target (Enemy Carrier) YOu must VID the ship before firing the missile, otherwise who know what you are shooting at. Verification can be done via either Satellite or Aircraft VID.

Stage 2.) Calculate the Trajectory of the Missile.

When you have a target coordinate, you need to calculate the trajectory, as the rocket don't go in straight, it enter the earth atmosphere before coming back down to earth for target apporach. You need a bunch of scientist to do that.

Stage 3.) Fuel up the missile and firing it off.

Well, no mobile missile launcher are ever loaded with fuel when it transport as solid rocket fuel are pretty unstable and one bump, one spark, all gone to hell. So you fuel it when you stop and prepare to fire.

When these 3 stage are done, your missile is RTF.

Now you know how it work, we can start discuss the use of the missile.

Obiviously it is a cheap substitute of a carrier, a millions something missile to go for a multi-billion aircraft carrier is a good trade. It save you heaps of money to form a fleet and defeat the carrier before them even know about you.

It would be also serve as deterrence force to discouage enemy fleet to get in range of your missile, give you a large breathing space between you and the enemy navy.

Final advantage of having this missile is to give you a moral boost when it did destroy an enemy carrier.

However, this is all good things to have, there are always problem related on using such weapon.

Problem 1.) IT will only be good if you can hit the target, but ASBM, unlike tradition ballistic missile, need a pin point accuracy as they are using an impact det instead of area det which require less accuracy, A LOT LESS accuracy.

The problem stem from the complicated work on acquiring and guidenance system. There are certain defeat point you can deafeat the missile, before flight, in-flight or inbound. You can jam the enemy radar and thus your carrier will not appear in their radar. You can mask the enemy satellite, you can shoot down the recon aircraft come here to identify you. You can even intercept the missile in flight.

Also, using a ballistic missile to hit a target that less than 1 square mile mean pin-point accuracy. Meaning you need to keep feeding the missile updated info in flight, until terminal range where either the carrier cannot move out of the blast zone, or got in the onboard guidance system range. If you lose track on enemy target anytime during flight, your missile is useless. And since a carrier can run about 40 mile per hour. So for a 30 minutes old information, you are looking at 20 mile different. Which will render the missile to be ineffective.

Problem 2: It will be of no use if the enemy did not use their Carrier.


No carrier, no strike, you can probably hit a carrier which is running 31 knots, but it will be useless against a destroyer which is 1/8 of the size of a carrier, and doing 50 knots overpower, or 40 knots full flank.

Aircraft carrier can operate outside 2000 mile off coast, which render outside the missile range, with aerial refueling, there are unlimited range on Aircraft Carrier's aircraft, so to stay out of the range and still able to operate their plane is possible. What the enemy navy do is simply have the AC run on and off your missile range, put on fighter/bomber, when you refuel your rocket, it give them time to their aircraft to attack you. Or simply send in Destroyer or Frigate to cover the sea first, if the enemy have an absolute advantage on sea, which they usually do or you will not use the missile in the first place.

Problem 3: It would be an easy prey for the Combine Ballistic MIssile Defence system.

While the many navy have their own AGEIS system for all airborne target, Army and airforce also have their own PAC-3 system which shown time and again effective against incoming ballistic missile, when you talk about range of 1700 mile, you have to cover some land and gone feet dry before reaching your target. So a combine SM3 and PAC3 missile barrier are to use to shoot down the incoming missile. Even if the missile broke throught and heading toward your carrier.

Conclusion

No doubt they have their use on the modern naval engagment, but the use should be limited, as the complicated targetting and guidance system suggest that hitting a target is no easy business, it would be more of a deterrance than of actual use.

Believe it or not, US Navy were investigating the possibility of using ASBM as part of their naval power, back in 2009, but they ultimately rejected the idea. The program itselve are just too costly without actual any work done. Those missile will act as the same thing as any F-18E/F carry full load of harpoon missile, which is consider cheaper and harder to stop than any missile can produce.

http://www.usni.org/news-and-features/chinese-kill-weapon

http://thediplomat.com/2012/01/20/behind-the-china-missile-hype/2/?all=true
 
hmmm i hope PN is also considering to have such missile..
 
hmmm i hope PN is also considering to have such missile..

It's a good move if Pakistan wanted such missile, it will increase your naval power by multiple fold. It would be a cheap substitute to a full fledge aircraft carrier group.
 
You made a couple of wrong assumptions in your article:

Stage 2.) Calculate the Trajectory of the Missile.

When you have a target coordinate, you need to calculate the trajectory, as the rocket don't go in straight, it enter the earth atmosphere before coming back down to earth for target apporach. You need a bunch of scientist to do that.

It leaves the atmosphere and then re-enters it.
Trajectory calculations by scientists/engineers are done when the missile is in development. But when it becomes operationally deployed with the forces, all that is needed is a target and launch preparations (which do not involve any such complexity) to carry out a mission.


Stage 3.) Fuel up the missile and firing it off.

Well, no mobile missile launcher are ever loaded with fuel when it transport as solid rocket fuel are pretty unstable and one bump, one spark, all gone to hell. So you fuel it when you stop and prepare to fire.

No, solid-fueled Ballistic missiles DO NOT require fueling for the main solid motor(s). However, hydrazine fueling is required for the correction systems onboard the post-boost vehicle (in the case of DF-21D, re-entry vehicle too). Precautions are taken in the manufacturing of the missile such that no accidental inflammation occurs.
 
You made a couple of wrong assumptions in your article:

It leaves the atmosphere and then re-enters it.
Trajectory calculations by scientists/engineers are done when the missile is in development. But when it becomes operationally deployed with the forces, all that is needed is a target and launch preparations (which do not involve any such complexity) to carry out a mission.

No, solid-fueled Ballistic missiles DO NOT require fueling for the main solid motor(s). However, hydrazine fueling is required for the correction systems onboard the post-boost vehicle (in the case of DF-21D, re-entry vehicle too). Precautions are taken in the manufacturing of the missile such that no accidental inflammation occurs.

so in the end, you are saying the rocket needed to onsite refuel and the rocket needed input trajectory then, am i correct??
 
so in the end, you are saying the rocket needed to onsite refuel and the rocket needed input trajectory then, am i correct??

Negative, Solid-fuel missiles do not require fueling for their solid motors (engines). The only fueling required (mentioned previously) takes minutes, not hours, and can be done under the covers (without exposing the missile to recon).

The trajectory is automatically generated by the mission computers IMO, once the target coordinates are given (not necessarily satellite coordinates).
 
Negative, Solid-fuel missiles do not require fueling for their solid motors (engines). The only fueling required (mentioned previously) takes minutes, not hours, and can be done under the covers (without exposing the missile to recon).

The trajectory is automatically generated by the mission computers IMO, once the target coordinates are given (not necessarily satellite coordinates).

strictly speaking from the time you refuel to firing the missile is 15-20 miutes top, and with the target designation, you are looking at about 40 minutes to 1 hour, my assumption are based on the missile would be able to launch within 30 minutes, which is highly impossible.

i will admit, i don't know much about Naval Technology, as i said it on my OP, but if you still need to refuel (No matter which parts is it) and you still need to do calculation on the target coordinate, i am still on par in the money as far as i concern.
 
Jhungry...Before you open a Thread look around for the Topic in Chinese Defence Section all the information and problems are mentioned in a couple of Threads regarding Chinese ASBM Carrier Killer I believe respected member Martain2 explained it in detail...
 
Jhungry...Before you open a Thread look around for the Topic in Chinese Defence Section all the information and problems are mentioned in a couple of Threads regarding Chinese ASBM Carrier Killer I believe respected member Martain2 explained it in detail...

so you are saying, i should shut up becasue i am not respected enough, does not matter the value of the post itself then??

Actually i have read his comment on the missile and i don't think all of his word are apporaiate, and i think my view are more unbiased to him. But if you say i am not respected so i must be wrong, and he is respected and he would be right, aren't you have a biased angle to start with??

Aren't all view have the same right to express theoir own view if not then why do you need new member anyway?

All due respect, you respect him, but for me, he is just a common guy. If you think my word are trash, you are welcome to challenge me, but if you think my word are worthless simply because i am not "Respected" in this forum, then you should save your breathe, cause according to Martian2, 50 missile with 150 warhead will kill any carrier that come near, but the Naval research institute and RAND corporate beg to differ.

The problem is, i do not want to start this in Chinese missile thread because it will just troll to shxt in the end, i want serious discussion, not trolling or even railroading me out becuase of my "respect" level.

by the way, you got my name wrong.
 
It leaves the atmosphere and then re-enters it.
Trajectory calculations by scientists/engineers are done when the missile is in development. But when it becomes operationally deployed with the forces, all that is needed is a target and launch preparations (which do not involve any such complexity) to carry out a mission.
I beg your pardon! You are way off course! The most complex stage starts from the time of acquisition of the target, until the missile hits the AC especially the terminal phase. Do you even know the complexities involved during this stage?

A guided ballistic missile targeted against a static target uses a far more mundane prong antennae that juts out beyond the plasma shroud to capture GPS/GLONASS/Beidou-2 updates to its on-board inertial navigation system. Against a moving target like an AC, such a ballistic missile, in addition to the GPS feed, would need an additional channel or two feeding targeting data, last known position, integrated vectoring by fins/aerodynamic surfaces at lower altitudes, and thrusters at higher altitudes and so on… from a recce sat, UAV, submarine, aircraft etc. And there lies the complexity.

Not as simple as it sounds. The terminal phase needless to say, is the most complex which is between 'C' and 'D' in the diagram below.

Erikson-Fdiagram-May-09.jpg


If that has been perfected, then the DF is a potent weapon. However, it must be remembered that an AC never moves around alone but is the centerpiece of a Carrier Strike Group consisting of a number of ships and subs armed with anti missile missiles. As soon as satellites pick up launch signatures, these ships will be warned well in advance and missiles armed to take on the DFs - all within 6-7 minutes of missile launch.
 
I beg your pardon! You are way off course! The most complex stage starts from the time of acquisition of the target, until the missile hits the AC especially the terminal phase. Do you even know the complexities involved during this stage?

A guided ballistic missile targeted against a static target uses a far more mundane prong antennae that juts out beyond the plasma shroud to capture GPS/GLONASS/Beidou-2 updates to its on-board inertial navigation system. Against a moving target like an AC, such a ballistic missile, in addition to the GPS feed, would need an additional channel or two feeding targeting data, last known position, integrated vectoring by fins/aerodynamic surfaces at lower altitudes, and thrusters at higher altitudes and so on… from a recce sat, UAV, submarine, aircraft etc. And there lies the complexity.

Not as simple as it sounds. The terminal phase needless to say, is the most complex which is between 'C' and 'D' in the diagram below.

Erikson-Fdiagram-May-09.jpg


If that has been perfected, then the DF is a potent weapon. However, it must be remembered that an AC never moves around alone but is the centerpiece of a Carrier Strike Group consisting of a number of ships and subs armed with anti missile missiles. As soon as satellites pick up launch signatures, these ships will be warned well in advance and missiles armed to take on the DFs - all within 6-7 minutes of missile launch.

No, no. You misunderstood me probably. Correct me if I' wrong. :)
I was referring to the launch preparations, which consume time. From what I understood, @jhungary meant to say that the launch preparations are very time consuming, and full trajectory (approximate, later corrected during flight) would be difficult to calculate and can only be done by some scientists. On the other hand these calculations are readily done by the mission computers.
Of course all the other navigation/mid-course updating//target acquisition equipment/procedure is there, which is no doubt very very complex and has a bit low chances of success.
 
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I beg your pardon! You are way off course! The most complex stage starts from the time of acquisition of the target, until the missile hits the AC especially the terminal phase. Do you even know the complexities involved during this stage?

A guided ballistic missile targeted against a static target uses a far more mundane prong antennae that juts out beyond the plasma shroud to capture GPS/GLONASS/Beidou-2 updates to its on-board inertial navigation system. Against a moving target like an AC, such a ballistic missile, in addition to the GPS feed, would need an additional channel or two feeding targeting data, last known position, integrated vectoring by fins/aerodynamic surfaces at lower altitudes, and thrusters at higher altitudes and so on… from a recce sat, UAV, submarine, aircraft etc. And there lies the complexity.

Not as simple as it sounds. The terminal phase needless to say, is the most complex which is between 'C' and 'D' in the diagram below.

Erikson-Fdiagram-May-09.jpg


If that has been perfected, then the DF is a potent weapon. However, it must be remembered that an AC never moves around alone but is the centerpiece of a Carrier Strike Group consisting of a number of ships and subs armed with anti missile missiles. As soon as satellites pick up launch signatures, these ships will be warned well in advance and missiles armed to take on the DFs - all within 6-7 minutes of missile launch.

What people don't understand is, when you are using a tactical ballistic you only need it to free fall with terminal velocity on your intented target, accuracy is not a must. With DF-21D or Even DF-31, you need to close adjust to their location within at lease 10 mile to be able to direct to target (Hence the guidance system kick in) Otherwise you are drawing tangent to a circle . And the carrier will NOT be a static target.

What one need is a constant feeding of cordinate rather than one coordinate fit all, if, at any moment, the coordinate is not feed before Terminal Stage, your missile is gone. Even if Missile is feeded with constant update, you still only have low probablity to hit the ship to start with anyway.
 
so you are saying, i should shut up becasue i am not respected enough, does not matter the value of the post itself then??

No, the Topic you posted has been discussed in detail in Chinese Defence Section.

No one is stopping you from contributing in that Thread, your posts are welcomed reviving an important Thread is not a problem you can participate, your queries are common it would be much better to post it in that Thread which is an on going Thread rather than opening a new one.
 
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