Anil Ambani’s defamation blitz: 28 cases filed by Reliance Group in Ahmedabad courts this year

[SuvarnaTeja]

Another stupid assumption.

Local manufacturing was to limit the effect of any sanctions in the future and to build a local aircraft Industry and eco system. Not to reduce cost.

Local manufacturing is more expensive that purchasing it, especially since wages and costs in India are rising.

It is not necessary for the the local manufacturer to recover the entire capital cost from the manufacturing of the specified jets. They can become part of DA's supply chain and recover the cost over a longer period of time building other aircraft components, for commercial use.

But unlike last time, this time the details will be taken in writing and not left to the discretion of the supplier and left to be decided sometime in the vague future like what happened with Boeing.

The point being Modi has given 36 additional fighters to be bought in fly away condition with no commitment on ToT.

I gave HAL as one example, you claimed to choose HAL as preferred partner for DA.

In the original deal HAL was mandated to be the partner. I am happy that the original deal was cancelled. This was the only right step taken by Modi.

I never said Offset has to be tied to the product being procured. That is your strawman.

Offset is primarily a mechanism to ensure ToT within specified time. Its not to create jobs or Foreign excange. Those are secondary and incidental to the main reason which is to transfer the relevent know how.

Each offset has a weighted rank that is based on the criticality of the tech being transferred. So a easily available tech for a commercial aircraft might be given a weight of 0.7 its actual value, AESA tech could be given a weight of 2.1 its actual value.

I will let your false claim of being in supply chain procurement slide. Keep that for someone more gullible.

Again you are confused. The purpose of offsets is not to get ToT. Getting any ToT as part of offset obligations from the vendor is purely coincidental and should be considered as a bonus. The primary purpose is to bring in investments which offsets the money going out as part of the procurement (meaning saving precious Foreign Exchange) apart from building the Industry and generating jobs. MoD has very little say in case of Offsets other than ensuring that the offsets are in the eligible sectors or not. In most cases India may already have such technologies or the technology may fall into commodity (non critical) category. It is the ToT where MoD can clear specify and mandate what should be part of the deal.

Here is an official presss release:

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
22-September-2018 16:39 IST
Clarification on Offset Policy

Unnecessary controversies are being sought to be created following media reports regarding a statement purportedly made by the former French President, Francois Hollande, concerning the selection of Reliance Defence as the Offset partner by Dassault, the manufacturers of Rafale aircraft.

The reported statement perhaps needs to be seen in its full context – where the French media has raised issues of conflict of interest involving persons close to the former President. His subsequent statements are also relevant in this regard.

The Government has stated earlier and again reiterates that it had no role in the selection of Reliance Defence as the Offset partner.

For a rounded appreciation of this matter, it may be worthwhile to briefly dwell upon why and how Offset Policy came into play. The Offset Policy was formally announced for the first time in 2005 and has been revised several times. To leverage its huge arm-imports in order to develop a strong indigenous industry, a flow-back arrangement is made in the defence contracts, which is widely known as offsets, and constitutes a certain percentage of the contract value. The key objectives of the Defence Offset Policy is to leverage the capital acquisitions to develop Indian defence industry by fostering development of internationally competitive enterprises; augmenting capacity for research and development in defence sector and to encourage development of synergistic sector like civil aerospace and internal security. The offset can be discharged by many means such as direct purchase of eligible products/services, FDI in joint ventures and investment towards equipment and transfer of technology. As per Defence Offset Guidelines, the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) is free to select any Indian company as its offset partner.

It has been reported that a JV between Reliance Defence and Dassault Aviation came into being in February, 2017. This is a purely commercial arrangement between two private companies. Incidentally, media reports of February, 2012 suggest that Dassault Aviation, within two weeks of being declared the lowest bidder for procurement of 126 aircraft by the previous Government, had entered into a pact for partnership with Reliance Industries in Defence sector.

Dassault Aviation has issued a Press Release stating that it has signed partnership agreement with several companies and is negotiating with hundred odd other companies. As per the guidelines, the vendor is to provide the details of the offset partners either at the time of seeking offset credit or one year prior to discharge of offset obligation, which in this case will be due from 2020.

In view of above, it is once again reiterated that the Government of India has no role in the selection of Indian Offset partner which is a commercial decision of the OEM..

SRR/Rajib

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=183625

It just gvies a maximum limit of 15%. A proposal can come with 0% too if that was the best way to keep the cost down.

 

[1ndy]

Court me naa chalegi manmaani...

Pakistan will snatch Kashmir.
China will attack and occupy India.
Bangladeshi illegal immigrations will become majority in India.
India will become a colony of Sri Lanka.
these are some replies bhagats give when asked about Rafale deal.

Rafale was a desperate attempt to bailout Ambani by his friend Modi.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Court me naa chalegi manmaani...

Pakistan will snatch Kashmir.
China will attack and occupy India.
Bangladeshi illegal immigrations will become majority in India.
India will become a colony of Sri Lanka.
these are some replies bhagats give when asked about Rafale deal.

Rafale was a desperate attempt to bailout Ambani by his friend Modi.

Even if we assume that the highlighted was true. What is the problem?

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

But I thought you are one of the Congress supporters.
Anyway,
Sidhu is taking about corrupt deal in a pak TV channel.....
Is this deal is really a corrupt one or just he was doing in politics.
But he had no reason to do politics in Pakistan therefore there is something in the rafale deal.right

There is no corruption in the Rafale deal. The main allegation is that the offset contracts are going to Reliance group which is allegedly close to Modi. But the fact is offset deals in the past when Congress/UPA was in power went to Tata group which is allegedly close to the Congress. In fact offset deals from both LM & Boeing who are competitors in the US have gone to the same Tata group in India. How strange!

The main issue with the Rafale deal is that Modi has messed up the deal. Read this thread from the start for the details.

 

[JohnWick]

There is no corruption in the Rafale deal. The main allegation is that the offset contracts are going to Reliance group which is allegedly close to Modi. But the fact is offset deals in the past when Congress/UPA was in power went to Tata group which is allegedly close to the Congress. In fact offset deals from both LM & Boeing who are competitors in the US have gone to the same Tata group in India. How strange!

The main issue with the Rafale deal is that Modi has messed up the deal. Read this thread from the start for the details.

I read it but there is corruption in every country The money u r paying to dassualt
Aviation group is so much that they Should give you the contract of license building of this aircraft.
....
In AMRCA 1 I read somewhere that u have graded Gripen E more advance than F-16 blk 70
Do you think Gripen E is more advance than our F-16s blk3
I have seen F-16 in a Air show in Pak.....ITs reallyban amazing aircraft.

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

I read it but there is corruption in every country The money u r paying to dassualt
Aviation group is so much that they Should give you the contract of license building of this aircraft.

Yes. It was a bad deal from Indian perceptive. High cost with zero ToT and no commitment for local manufacturing.

In AMRCA 1 I read somewhere that u have graded Gripen E more advance than F-16 blk 70
Do you think Gripen E is more advance than our F-16s blk3
I have seen F-16 in a Air show in Pak.....ITs reallyban amazing aircraft.

F-16 is a proven fighter with one of the best Radar. But the air frame is a bit older which limits future upgrades. Also there would be zero ToT. India would go for F-16s only under intense US pressure.

Gripen has a modern design but unproven. Relies on US engine. Has a decent Radar. Good ToT on the Air frame/manufacturing. Chances of India procuring Gripen are very low as IAF prefers Rafale and Sweden is not a political heavy weight with veto when compared to powers like US, France or Russia.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is no corruption in the Rafale deal. The main allegation is that the offset contracts are going to Reliance group which is allegedly close to Modi. But the fact is offset deals in the past when Congress/UPA was in power went to Tata group which is allegedly close to the Congress. In fact offset deals from both LM & Boeing who are competitors in the US have gone to the same Tata group in India. How strange!

The main issue with the Rafale deal is that Modi has messed up the deal. Read this thread from the start for the details.

Horses and donkeys; look similar, in superficial respects, are completely different.

Tata has had a long track record in defence and defence-related matters, including very promising research into materials and in electronics. I'm out of touch, but they were challenging us on a regular basis in common areas (not materials, not their 'type' of electronics), and that was fifteen years ago.

The snarky remark above also overlooks Ratan Tata's dismaying re-alignment with the Sanghis.

The Reliance deal is a rehabilitation for the younger Ambani, who has the Midas touch in reverse; ANYTHING he touches turns to lead. They have absolutely no background or track record in defence, and what is a void in general becomes a vacuum in the case of Rafale-related offset possibilities.

This is entirely due to HAL's crisis of leadership and crisis of workers who believe that they are entitled.

 

[1ndy]

Even if we assume that the highlighted was true. What is the problem?

This is all being done using tax payers money. the real problem.

 

[JohnWick]

Yes. It was a bad deal from Indian perceptive. High cost with zero ToT and no commitment for local manufacturing.

Not a bad deal at all a ~5 gen aircraft only with out little bit of stealth frame.and a good no of it....with no sanctions .......or control on its use by either US or sth else

But the air frame is a bit older which limits future upgrades.

Nahh.....plz don't say that
The air frame is not older......

. High cost with zero ToT . Also there would be zero ToT. Good ToT on the Air frame/manufacturing. .

Such a self-seeking.....self-centered people you are always looking for a TOT...

.

Gripen has a modern design but unproven. Relies on US engine. Has a decent Radar. Good ToT on the Air frame/manufacturing. Chances of India procuring Gripen are very low as IAF prefers Rafale and Sweden is not a political heavy weight with veto when compared to powers like US, France or Russia.

Ita upon u which jet you choose not about veto thing.I wish I could have a chance to pick one in such beautiful planes.....

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Horses and donkeys; look similar, in superficial respects, are completely different.

Tata has had a long track record in defence and defence-related matters, including very promising research into materials and in electronics. I'm out of touch, but they were challenging us on a regular basis in common areas (not materials, not their 'type' of electronics), and that was fifteen years ago.

The snarky remark above also overlooks Ratan Tata's dismaying re-alignment with the Sanghis.

The Reliance deal is a rehabilitation for the younger Ambani, who has the Midas touch in reverse; ANYTHING he touches turns to lead. They have absolutely no background or track record in defence, and what is a void in general becomes a vacuum in the case of Rafale-related offset possibilities.

This is entirely due to HAL's crisis of leadership and crisis of workers who believe that they are entitled.

How close Tatas were to Congress was very apparent from the Radia tapes scandal. Congress is a Parsi party and they always favored Tatas. And you want Tata become a monopoly in Indian defense? That is never a smart idea. The plan was always to bring in other industry majors like Reliance, Mahindras etc. to compete with Tatas and avoid a monopoly situation from arising.

This is all being done using tax payers money. the real problem.

All defense contracts use tax payers money. Even the offsets that went to Tatas was from Tax payers money.

 

[1ndy]

How close Tatas were to Congress was very apparent from the Radia tapes scandal. Congress is a Parsi party and they always favored Tatas. And you want Tata become a monopoly in Indian defense? That is never a smart idea. The plan was always to bring in other industry major like Reliance, Mahindras etc. to compete with Tatas and avoid a monopoly situation from arising.



All defense contracts use tax payers money. Even the offsets that went to Tatas was from Tax payers money.

Tatas are proven menufacturers while Ambani can't even menufacture a safety pin.

Tatas are proven menufacturers while Ambani can't even menufacture a safety pin.

and i am not defending Congress. Congress was wrong so ousted from power and people voted BJP for a change but they are doing exactly same what Congress did.

in simple words,

Congress + Cow = BJP

 

[SuvarnaTeja]

Not a bad deal at all a ~5 gen aircraft only with out little bit of stealth frame.and a good no of it....with no sanctions .......or control on its use by either US or sth else

No doubt Rafale is a great fighter plane excluding the stealth ones in the market.

Nahh.....plz don't say that
The air frame is not older......

It is relative. One big draw back for India is that PAF knows F-16 like the back of their hand. So it will always be least preferred.

Such a self-seeking.....self-centered people you are always looking for a TOT...

Unfortunately it has only been a desire with little progress on ground.

Ita upon u which jet you choose not about veto thing.I wish I could have a chance to pick one in such beautiful planes.....

Unfortunately India needs to keep the big powers happy.

Tatas are proven menufacturers while Ambani can't even menufacture a safety pin.

Partially true. Reliance did acquire Pipavav Defence but it was in the ship building domain and not in Aerospace.

The point was never what India Industry was already doing as everyone knew all Indian defense talent was in DPSUs which were rotting with inefficiencies. The plan was always to bring in private industry and help them grow through offset and ToT deals.

So if Reliance manufactured a defense pin or not is irrelevant.

 

[rajiv sharma]

India should have gone for the entire 126 if not 189 fighters.

Going for 36 outright purchase means India gave up all the leverage it had to get ToT and better price.

What a wasted chanced. This was criminal on part of Modi. What happened to Make in India?



You wish.

read it if you are capable and have sane mind , khangress and coterie will be shamed again although they are shameless traitors !
http://m.sify.com/news/fact-check-a...-skdsLSaabhbce.html?__twitter_impression=truehttp://m.sify.com/news/fact-check-a...-skdsLSaabhbce.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Joe Shearer]

How close Tatas were to Congress was very apparent from the Radia tapes scandal.

That was then; this is now.

Congress is a Parsi party and they always favored Tatas.

Bullshit.

The Swatantra Party was the Parsi party. The Congress grew out of its Parsi legacy with Gokhale. Tatas got no favours; I've worked with Tatas twice and saw the internal workings and the uphill battles compared to the ease with which the Marwaris, particularly the Birlas, moved around, and still worse compared to the subversion and corruption of everything and anything that was Dhirubhai's hallmark.

And you want Tata become a monopoly in Indian defense?

So admiring a woman's dress sense clearly indicates my prurient desires? I mentioned Tata's extensive experience in defence, and you made a full suite of sail out of that hankie. No, I don't want Tata to become a monopoly in Indian defence. At the same time that I was watching Tatas smoothly move into various areas of 'our' interest, another very low-profile organisation had employed India's 'other' astronaut, the man who never flew out, to make very specialised aerial devices. In these twenty years since then (I said fifteen years somewhere else, but realised time had slipped by faster than I thought), they have widened and deepened their capabilities. Now I read about the startling new acquisitions by our neighbours with considerable amusement, knowing what is going on quietly, without fuss or bother.

That is never a smart idea. The plan was always to bring in other industry majors like Reliance, Mahindras etc. to compete with Tatas and avoid a monopoly situation from arising.

You talk so knowledgeably about these 'plans' and about what is being decided at a policy level. Very, very impressive.

As it happens, Mahindras was already available, and although the direction they took was very close to their knitting, and far less diversified than Tatas, there was never any question of a private-sector monopoly for one house. Besides the Tatas and the Mahindras, there were that 'M' organisation I mentioned a little earlier, and people from Pune were already talking to us about their metallurgical capabilities. I was only peripherally interested or involved in that last, as artillery was never a part of our remit, but by public reports, they have done extremely well and come to a respectable position.

All defense contracts use tax payers money. Even the offsets that went to Tatas was from Tax payers money.

Bullshit.

I've dealt with offsets; I've been involved in negotiations for critical items. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[JohnWick]

No doubt Rafale is a great fighter plane excluding the stealth ones in the market..

Well I would prefer euro fighter.........
Because Itlay, Spain ,Germany and Saudis are very cunning people they never spent their money one something bad...

It is relative. One big draw back for India is that PAF knows F-16 like the back of their hand. So it will always be least preferred.

So thats the reason ........hmmmm......
Well......we made jft according to F-16....somewhat a nice copy of it.....including all its best features.....Even....the "BINGO" word wriiten on the HMD of F-16.....and the job has done nicely.......

Unfortunately it has only been a desire with little progress on ground.
.

I thought you were happy with your Tejas....
Enough progress your tejas making on your ground right????.....

Unfortunately India needs to keep the big powers happy.
.

I thought India itself a Some kind of super power......
Its also not getting AIDs from foreign super powers?.
So why It wants to happy them.......???