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An aircraft carrier for China?

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An aircraft carrier for China?
By David Lague International Herald Tribune

MONDAY, JANUARY 30, 2006


BEIJING As China builds a military to match its growing economic power, its neighbors and potential rivals including the United States have puzzled over a key question: When will the Chinese Navy launch an aircraft carrier?

For decades, senior Chinese military and political officials have argued that for the country to become a great power, the People's Liberation Army Navy needs to add these potent warships to its fleet.

However, the major obstacle to this ambition is that aircraft carriers are hugely expensive.

The two 50,000-metric-ton conventionally powered carriers now under development for Britain's Royal Navy are expected to cost a minimum of $2.5 billion each. To outfit them with aircraft could cost that much again.

And, aircraft carriers do not operate alone. They need a fleet of warships, submarines and supply vessels along with advanced electronic surveillance for support and protection.

For these reasons, most experts assumed a Chinese carrier was decades away.

But after double-digit increases in defense spending over much of the past 15 years, evidence is now emerging that China has a more ambitious timetable.

"I am convinced that before the end of this decade, we will see preparations for China to build its first indigenous aircraft carrier," said Rick Fisher, the Washington-based vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center and an expert on the Chinese military.

Fisher and other analysts note that extensive work now appears to be under way on a carrier purchased from Ukraine, the Varyag, now moored in the northern Chinese port of Dalian.

They speculate that the Varyag, fresh from the dry dock and, according to recent photographs, now painted in the navy's gray, could be used for training or even upgraded so that it was fully operational.

Not surprisingly, the Taiwan military has also been monitoring activity on the Varyag.

At a briefing in Taipei on Jan. 19, a Taiwan military spokesman, Liu Chih-chien, pointed to satellite photographs of the carrier at anchor in Dalian, where he said it had been under repair.

"Although China claimed that the Varyag will be used as a tourist attraction, the aircraft carrier would actually be used as a training ship in preparation for building an aircraft carrier battle group," Liu said.

Analysts also report that at recent international air shows, Chinese military officers have been showing strong interest in strike aircraft suited to fly from carriers.

As with earlier reports that the Chinese Navy intended to acquire aircraft carriers, Beijing denied Taiwan's claim.

"We don't know where the Taiwanese authorities got their so-called intelligence," said Li Weiyi, a spokesman for China's Taiwan Affairs Office, according to a report carried last week by the official Xinhua news agency.

Whatever the timetable, most naval experts agree that China will almost certainly build or buy aircraft carriers.

"Given China's strategic ambitions, it's a logical move," said Sam Bateman, a maritime security expert at Singapore's Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies.

"I am sure the PLAN has carrier aspirations," he said, referring to the People's Liberation Army Navy.

Bateman said that, like the United States, two of China's neighbors, India and Japan, would be anxious about the prospect of carriers in the Chinese fleet.

What is clear is that China has already invested decades of effort in its bid to gain the technology and skills needed to build and operate these warships.

Admiral Liu Huaqing, vice chairman of China's Central Military Commission before his retirement in 1997, is widely regarded as the father of the navy's aircraft carrier program.

Heavily influenced by his exposure to top Russian naval experts during his studies in the Soviet Union as a young officer in the 1950s, Liu advocated that China should have aircraft carriers as the backbone of a "blue water" navy that could deploy beyond the country's coastal waters.

In military journals published in the 1990s he wrote that aircraft carriers would ensure China's control over Taiwan and territories it claimed in the South China Sea and match the growing military power of neighbors including Japan and India.

Liu, along with other senior Chinese defense analysts, also recognized that China was becoming a major trading power and would become increasingly dependent on secure sea lanes to carry its imports of energy and raw materials and exports of manufactured goods.

They argued that aircraft carriers would give the navy the ability to keep these sea lanes open in times of conflict or international tension.

Other analysts also say that a carrier would be symbolically important as evidence of Chinese power in the same way that U.S. Navy's aircraft carrier battle groups serve as a reminder of America's global reach.

Early work on the feasibility of building a carrier began in Shanghai in the early 1980s but the first clear sign of China's ambition came in 1985 when China bought a decommissioned Australian aircraft carrier, apparently for scrap.

However, before the vessel was dismantled, Chinese experts studied the design of this carrier and used the flight deck for pilot training, according to naval analysts.

The disintegration of the once-powerful Soviet Navy after the collapse of the Soviet Union provided further opportunities to study the design and construction of modern carriers.

Senior defense officials in Japan and Southeast Asia were intrigued when Chinese companies bought two decommissioned Russian antisubmarine carriers, the Minsk and Kiev, but speculation that these would have some military role in China proved groundless.

The Minsk was converted into a floating museum in Shenzhen, and the Kiev is also being modified, to serve as a floating tourist attraction in Tianjin.

In the 1990s, a number of countries including Spain and France signaled that they would be prepared to build or sell an aircraft carrier to China but Beijing apparently declined these overtures.

Some experts on the Chinese military say that plans to build or buy a carrier were shelved after 1997 with the retirement of Liu and renewed emphasis on military preparations to fight a war over Taiwan if the island declared independence.

Taiwan's proximity to the mainland means land-based Chinese aircraft and missiles would be well within range in the event of a conflict.

As recently as 2003 in its annual report to Congress on China's military, the Pentagon said China appeared to have "set aside indefinitely" its plans to acquire a carrier.

Instead, the Chinese military seemed intent on developing the firepower to sink aircraft carriers, a move clearly aimed at deterring the United States if it decided to intervene in any conflict over Taiwan.

This included a rapid upgrade of China's conventional and nuclear submarine fleet, the delivery of advanced Russian surface warships armed with supersonic missiles and an expanded force of Russian-made and domestically produced strike aircraft.

However, the purchase for $20 million of the 67,500-metric-ton Varyag from Ukraine in 1998 suggested that Beijing retained a strong desire for aircraft carriers and a blue-water navy.

The Varyag was still under construction in a Ukrainian shipyard when the Soviet Union collapsed and neither Russia nor Ukraine had the funds to complete the work.

A Macao-based company with close ties to the Chinese armed forces bought the carrier without engines, rudders or armament and said it would be moored in the former Portuguese colony as a floating casino.

At the time, most analysts said this seemed an unlikely explanation for the purchase because Macao's harbor was far too shallow to berth a warship of this size.

After a long delay while Turkish authorities, fearful of the danger to shipping, refused permission for the carrier to be towed through the Bosporus, the Varyag was eventually delivered to the Dalian shipyard in 2002.

The fact that Beijing went to great diplomatic lengths to persuade Turkish authorities to allow the transit was seen by some experts as further evidence of China's determination to improve its understanding of carrier technology.

There is tight security surrounding the Varyag in Dalian harbor, but work on the vessel is clearly visible from nearby highways.

Recent photographs show extensive repairs or maintenance to the carrier's superstructure and deck.

"There is a lot of work happening on that thing which is not consistent with a gambling casino," Fisher said.

BEIJING As China builds a military to match its growing economic power, its neighbors and potential rivals including the United States have puzzled over a key question: When will the Chinese Navy launch an aircraft carrier?

For decades, senior Chinese military and political officials have argued that for the country to become a great power, the People's Liberation Army Navy needs to add these potent warships to its fleet.

However, the major obstacle to this ambition is that aircraft carriers are hugely expensive.

The two 50,000-metric-ton conventionally powered carriers now under development for Britain's Royal Navy are expected to cost a minimum of $2.5 billion each. To outfit them with aircraft could cost that much again.

And, aircraft carriers do not operate alone. They need a fleet of warships, submarines and supply vessels along with advanced electronic surveillance for support and protection.

For these reasons, most experts assumed a Chinese carrier was decades away.

But after double-digit increases in defense spending over much of the past 15 years, evidence is now emerging that China has a more ambitious timetable.

"I am convinced that before the end of this decade, we will see preparations for China to build its first indigenous aircraft carrier," said Rick Fisher, the Washington-based vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center and an expert on the Chinese military.

Fisher and other analysts note that extensive work now appears to be under way on a carrier purchased from Ukraine, the Varyag, now moored in the northern Chinese port of Dalian.

They speculate that the Varyag, fresh from the dry dock and, according to recent photographs, now painted in the navy's gray, could be used for training or even upgraded so that it was fully operational.

Not surprisingly, the Taiwan military has also been monitoring activity on the Varyag.

At a briefing in Taipei on Jan. 19, a Taiwan military spokesman, Liu Chih-chien, pointed to satellite photographs of the carrier at anchor in Dalian, where he said it had been under repair.

"Although China claimed that the Varyag will be used as a tourist attraction, the aircraft carrier would actually be used as a training ship in preparation for building an aircraft carrier battle group," Liu said.

Analysts also report that at recent international air shows, Chinese military officers have been showing strong interest in strike aircraft suited to fly from carriers.

As with earlier reports that the Chinese Navy intended to acquire aircraft carriers, Beijing denied Taiwan's claim.

"We don't know where the Taiwanese authorities got their so-called intelligence," said Li Weiyi, a spokesman for China's Taiwan Affairs Office, according to a report carried last week by the official Xinhua news agency.

Whatever the timetable, most naval experts agree that China will almost certainly build or buy aircraft carriers.

"Given China's strategic ambitions, it's a logical move," said Sam Bateman, a maritime security expert at Singapore's Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies.

"I am sure the PLAN has carrier aspirations," he said, referring to the People's Liberation Army Navy.

Bateman said that, like the United States, two of China's neighbors, India and Japan, would be anxious about the prospect of carriers in the Chinese fleet.

What is clear is that China has already invested decades of effort in its bid to gain the technology and skills needed to build and operate these warships.

Admiral Liu Huaqing, vice chairman of China's Central Military Commission before his retirement in 1997, is widely regarded as the father of the navy's aircraft carrier program.

Heavily influenced by his exposure to top Russian naval experts during his studies in the Soviet Union as a young officer in the 1950s, Liu advocated that China should have aircraft carriers as the backbone of a "blue water" navy that could deploy beyond the country's coastal waters.

In military journals published in the 1990s he wrote that aircraft carriers would ensure China's control over Taiwan and territories it claimed in the South China Sea and match the growing military power of neighbors including Japan and India.

Liu, along with other senior Chinese defense analysts, also recognized that China was becoming a major trading power and would become increasingly dependent on secure sea lanes to carry its imports of energy and raw materials and exports of manufactured goods.

They argued that aircraft carriers would give the navy the ability to keep these sea lanes open in times of conflict or international tension.

Other analysts also say that a carrier would be symbolically important as evidence of Chinese power in the same way that U.S. Navy's aircraft carrier battle groups serve as a reminder of America's global reach.

Early work on the feasibility of building a carrier began in Shanghai in the early 1980s but the first clear sign of China's ambition came in 1985 when China bought a decommissioned Australian aircraft carrier, apparently for scrap.

However, before the vessel was dismantled, Chinese experts studied the design of this carrier and used the flight deck for pilot training, according to naval analysts.

The disintegration of the once-powerful Soviet Navy after the collapse of the Soviet Union provided further opportunities to study the design and construction of modern carriers.

Senior defense officials in Japan and Southeast Asia were intrigued when Chinese companies bought two decommissioned Russian antisubmarine carriers, the Minsk and Kiev, but speculation that these would have some military role in China proved groundless.

The Minsk was converted into a floating museum in Shenzhen, and the Kiev is also being modified, to serve as a floating tourist attraction in Tianjin.

In the 1990s, a number of countries including Spain and France signaled that they would be prepared to build or sell an aircraft carrier to China but Beijing apparently declined these overtures.

Some experts on the Chinese military say that plans to build or buy a carrier were shelved after 1997 with the retirement of Liu and renewed emphasis on military preparations to fight a war over Taiwan if the island declared independence.

Taiwan's proximity to the mainland means land-based Chinese aircraft and missiles would be well within range in the event of a conflict.

As recently as 2003 in its annual report to Congress on China's military, the Pentagon said China appeared to have "set aside indefinitely" its plans to acquire a carrier.

Instead, the Chinese military seemed intent on developing the firepower to sink aircraft carriers, a move clearly aimed at deterring the United States if it decided to intervene in any conflict over Taiwan.

This included a rapid upgrade of China's conventional and nuclear submarine fleet, the delivery of advanced Russian surface warships armed with supersonic missiles and an expanded force of Russian-made and domestically produced strike aircraft.

However, the purchase for $20 million of the 67,500-metric-ton Varyag from Ukraine in 1998 suggested that Beijing retained a strong desire for aircraft carriers and a blue-water navy.

The Varyag was still under construction in a Ukrainian shipyard when the Soviet Union collapsed and neither Russia nor Ukraine had the funds to complete the work.

A Macao-based company with close ties to the Chinese armed forces bought the carrier without engines, rudders or armament and said it would be moored in the former Portuguese colony as a floating casino.

At the time, most analysts said this seemed an unlikely explanation for the purchase because Macao's harbor was far too shallow to berth a warship of this size.

After a long delay while Turkish authorities, fearful of the danger to shipping, refused permission for the carrier to be towed through the Bosporus, the Varyag was eventually delivered to the Dalian shipyard in 2002.

The fact that Beijing went to great diplomatic lengths to persuade Turkish authorities to allow the transit was seen by some experts as further evidence of China's determination to improve its understanding of carrier technology.

There is tight security surrounding the Varyag in Dalian harbor, but work on the vessel is clearly visible from nearby highways.

Recent photographs show extensive repairs or maintenance to the carrier's superstructure and deck.

"There is a lot of work happening on that thing which is not consistent with a gambling casino," Fisher said.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/30/bus...carrier.php?rss
 
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Do you guys think that China needs an aircraft carrier now? or should it build up its strong surface fleet first?

Can it handle the cost of operation?
 
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Originally posted by Hammad@Feb 2 2006, 08:29 PM
Do you guys think that China needs an aircraft carrier now? or should it build up its strong surface fleet first?

Can it handle the cost of operation?
[post=5866]Quoted post[/post]​

each carrier would probably cost around $3 billion, and they would need at least 3, as well as their rspective carrier battle groups and aircraft

that's roughly $20 billion, that money could be used alot better, at least at this point
 
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It is useless for China to obtain/build and deploy an aircraft carrier at this point in time. Her navy is still not up to the task to even stand up properly against the Indian Navy, let alone the US Navy.

First it has to make sure it acquires enough modern warships and submarines to challenge the Indian Navy for control of the seas that they have a stake in. China really needs better ASW and AEGIS capabilities.

So far the aircraft carrier, wisely, is NOT a priority for the PLAAN and this would remain so for atleast another decade because (as the article points out correctly), aircraft carriers do not and CANNOT operate alone (or else they'll be sitting ducks). They have an entire fleet of support warships, subs and auxillaries around them for protection.

Thus the huge cost of this kinda of venture is another matter of concern for Chinese military planners and strategists to ponder over.
 
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Originally posted by myst@Feb 21 2006, 06:56 PM
It is useless for China to obtain/build and deploy an aircraft carrier at this point in time. Her navy is still not up to the task to even stand up properly against the Indian Navy, let alone the US Navy.

First it has to make sure it acquires enough modern warships and submarines to challenge the Indian Navy for control of the seas that they have a stake in. China really needs better ASW and AEGIS capabilities.

So far the aircraft carrier, wisely, is NOT a priority for the PLAAN and this would remain so for atleast another decade because (as the article points out correctly), aircraft carriers do not and CANNOT operate alone (or else they'll be sitting ducks). They have an entire fleet of support warships, subs and auxillaries around them for protection.

Thus the huge cost of this kinda of venture is another matter of concern for Chinese military planners and strategists to ponder over.
[post=5990]Quoted post[/post]​

I sound like Miro. The Chinese navy would crush the IN in a matter of days if not weeks. China has fielded its advanced Type 054 Destroyer which uses an advanced Aegis like system deployed on it. China is also making this technology better and making more ships with this technology based on it. The PLAAN is currentlty challenging the US and Japanese navy in the region and is looking to be the dominante navy in the Indian ocean along with Pakistan (cough*,cough* GWADAR, cough*). China with in a matter of years would probaly have the second most power navy in the world and to do this they would need 4-6 aircraft carriers
 
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PLAAN crushing IN in a matter of weeks? That is one of the most absurd things I have come across. Certainly you are not claiming to be smarter than the defence analysts sitting inside think tanks across the world conducting simulations and extensice studies on the nature of the two navies and their comparative capabilities?

Type 054 is probably China's only proper destroyer which is advanced enough to cause concerns around the Malacca Straits and yes China is moving in the right direction which no one is denying. But as it stands today, it cannot take on the Indian Navy or even the Japanese Navy at all which is why you see Chinese subs trying to sneak in to Indian and Japanese waters to conduct reconnaisance but before they even come close, they've been picked up by both the Indians and the Japanese.

China cannot just walk out to the Arabian See and the Indian Ocean without facing opposition from those who already patrol those waters. The US for one, would be more than willing to hinder Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean.

China would take atleast another decade to come up to proper standards and to really pose any kind of thread to other bigger 'n' more advanced navies of the region. It is by then, that it would probably have a couple of carriers at the earliest.
 
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Originally posted by myst@Feb 22 2006, 05:19 AM
PLAAN crushing IN in a matter of weeks? That is one of the most absurd things I have come across. Certainly you are not claiming to be smarter than the defence analysts sitting inside think tanks across the world conducting simulations and extensice studies on the nature of the two navies and their comparative capabilities?

Type 054 is probably China's only proper destroyer which is advanced enough to cause concerns around the Malacca Straits and yes China is moving in the right direction which no one is denying. But as it stands today, it cannot take on the Indian Navy or even the Japanese Navy at all which is why you see Chinese subs trying to sneak in to Indian and Japanese waters to conduct reconnaisance but before they even come close, they've been picked up by both the Indians and the Japanese.

China cannot just walk out to the Arabian See and the Indian Ocean without facing opposition from those who already patrol those waters. The US for one, would be more than willing to hinder Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean.

China would take atleast another decade to come up to proper standards and to really pose any kind of thread to other bigger 'n' more advanced navies of the region. It is by then, that it would probably have a couple of carriers at the earliest.
[post=6011]Quoted post[/post]​

Chineese have lots of things in planning,one cannot take those to consider todays strengths.As of today INdefinitly has an edge over PLAAN.

and also india slo have lots o fplans for futurelike ATV,long range sub launched cruise missiles etc.

and also once PLAAN starts takeing a huge leap over India,U can see uncle saam stepping in and offering aegis or similar things to India.
 
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Yes, President Bush has already started stepping in, once you notice how he's going around the NPT to offer India help in civilian nuclear tech even though India is NOT a signatory to the agreement. Its time for Pakistan to get extensive help from China to counter this.

As far as the IN and PLAAN go, I think we've established here that PLAAN is on the right track to overtake the IN in a number of years but it has to invest in more R & D instead of copying technology from other nations. Genuine research will yield more fruitful results than just copy, pasting.

IN is doing well at the moment and is modernizing rapidly to become a true Blue Water Navy at the earliest. Its hegemonious designs will have to be kept in check by other regional navies.
 
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Originally posted by Sid@Feb 23 2006, 04:41 AM
Yes, President Bush has already started stepping in, once you notice how he's going around the NPT to offer India help in civilian nuclear tech even though India is NOT a signatory to the agreement. Its time for Pakistan to get extensive help from China to counter this.

As far as the IN and PLAAN go, I think we've established here that PLAAN is on the right track to overtake the IN in a number of years but it has to invest in more R & D instead of copying technology from other nations. Genuine research will yield more fruitful results than just copy, pasting.

IN is doing well at the moment and is modernizing rapidly to become a true Blue Water Navy at the earliest. Its hegemonious designs will have to be kept in check by other regional navies.
[post=6125]Quoted post[/post]​

IN a blue water navy? :laugh:

Chinese presents in the Indian ocean

The current stance on the IN's issue of the large future presents of the Chinese navy in many bases in the coast line of the Indian ocean, these inculde the Gwadar port (a future port which will be flowing billions of dollars into pakistan) and Chutanoog port of Bangladesh. The US which looks to dominate the waters of the Indian Ocean also see's China as a large threat to its Stance and power projection over broad. The US is also looking into using India as a blind currtain to isolate the now rapidly growing Chinese navy..

At current the IN is contrusting 17 different ships in 5 different dockyards in which 3 are goverment owned. This will not be capable of matching the fast growing and modernising Chinese navy which is currently contrustion a undisclosed number of Warships. Western intellegents estimates the numbers could be as high as 30.

China is not ony pulling fast ahead in numbers but also ship building technology, Anit-ship missile technology, radar technology and is looking into advancing into fields that even owe the western naval projectiles such as the YJ-XX cruise missile which is said to be better than the Indo-russian joint venture Brahmos, A new anti-ship ballistic missile which will have good accurasy and will be capable of engaging multiple targets, a giant aircraft carrier based off of Russian design. All these technologies will come together as China is currently developeing a radar which is said to rival the US aegis system on board the US Arleighn Burk Class destroyers.

The USN is looking into countering these threats by offering India state of the art technology such as the Aegis system, the P-8 and future developements. Will India be blinded by all these counter weight technology and fall into the US's political hands and become a Puppet state?

India's current and future leaps in Naval techonology doesn't come near China's future Blue water navy which even sends shivers down the US. This we all can conclude
 
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That article is useless in that its only a work of amateur enthusiasts and nothing else! Go talk about Chinese Navy (today) being better than Indian Navy in a serious defence website and they'll laugh at you.

By mentioning Blue Water navy, I did not say that Indian Navy has already become one, but merely suggested that it is on the right track with better technology than China 'at the moment'. This is not to say that PLAAN would always remain behind the IN because certainly with the amount of true R & D, reverse engineering and contructing going on; it very well may surpass the IN in the near future but that will not be the case atleast for another five to seven years and causing concern for the USN in about ten to fifteen (going by the most conservative estimates).

Chinese modernization of its navy sends 'shivers' down US' spine? You have got to be kidding me! Chinese Navy today cannot even stand up to Japan's naval forces, forget about even thinking about the USN.

Before you make such haughty claims, you MUST be able to back them up or you run the risk of becoming a laughing stock and not being taken seriously by others who know a little more than you do.
 
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sinoraj,

You could post without an offensive manner. Post deleted.
 
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Originally posted by Sid@Feb 24 2006, 10:10 PM

Chinese modernization of its navy sends 'shivers' down US' spine? You have got to be kidding me! Chinese Navy today cannot even stand up to Japan's naval forces, forget about even thinking about the USN.

Before you make such haughty claims, you MUST be able to back them up or you run the risk of becoming a laughing stock and not being taken seriously by others who know a little more than you do.
[post=6214]Quoted post[/post]​


I disagree that China's modernisation of its navy is NOT sending shivers down the U.S. spine. The reason is that we must be realistic where the location of the conflict will be. China's navy won't be fighting in the Sea of Japan or near the Californian coast line. Combat will take place close to Chinese Mainland. China will be able to use its Aircrafts armed with Anti-ship cruise missiles against U.S. naval vessels.

You may well claim that Im bringing the airforce into the equation; and you would be right. The fact remains though, that the location of the conflict (in, around and for Taiwan) will result in an environment very advantegous to China's navy and military vis-a-vis U.S. and her allies.
 
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Originally posted by sigatoka@Mar 6 2006, 03:53 PM
I disagree that China's modernisation of its navy is NOT sending shivers down the U.S. spine. The reason is that we must be realistic where the location of the conflict will be. China's navy won't be fighting in the Sea of Japan or near the Californian coast line. Combat will take place close to Chinese Mainland.



Why is that so?Is it because PLN cant fight a war away from its shore ,then thats abig disadvantage,bcoz USN fighting away from its shore can still be as lethal.
 
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Originally posted by Prashant@Mar 6 2006, 12:48 PM
Why is that so?Is it because PLN cant fight a war away from its shore ,then thats abig disadvantage,bcoz USN fighting away from its shore can still be as lethal.
[post=6711]Quoted post[/post]​


Because China's overwhelming concern is Taiwan, Taiwan, Taiwan. That is why.

Is it really such a disadvantage? What does the U.S. do with its global power projection? It launches disastrous adventures in Vietnam and Iraq.
 
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Originally posted by Prashant@Mar 6 2006, 10:48 PM
Why is that so?Is it because PLN cant fight a war away from its shore ,then thats abig disadvantage,bcoz USN fighting away from its shore can still be as lethal.
[post=6711]Quoted post[/post]​

Well who said PLN cant figt a war away from its shore. It has got all the capability to do that, same like US and few other countries. The only thing which makes the difference is the "history", US was fought many wars in the last 5 decades. And how many chinese have fought? So you cant really point the capabilities.

US is more aggressive country as compared to China. At the moment China is most concerned about building its fast growing economy. They are not interested to downsize any other nation, as US do! I am pointing at INDO-US relations. You know what i mean...
 
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