Amur-1650 offered to India under Project-75I is best of Several Submarines : Rubin CEO

[fsayed]

@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s

@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet

@GURU DUTT
http://idrw.org/amur-1650-offered-t...t-of-several-submarines-rubin-ceo/#more-98811

Igor V Vilnit,CEO Rubin Design Bureau in a recent Interview to Indian media house has said that ” Russia has offered State-of-the-art Amur-1650 conventional submarines based on Lada-Class under Make in India programme under Project 75(I) .

Igor also added that Amur-1650 offered to India will take best of Lada-Class submarines currently under construction at Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg but also will carry forward several refinements of Lada-Class and further developments from little known Kalina-Class conventional submarines project .

Kalina-Class conventional submarines project is further refinement of Lada-Class submarines based on suggestions provided by Russian Navy . Kalina-Class submarines will be designed from the outsets as AIP-equipped vessels which will be more capable than previous versions and will come incorporating all the improvements asked by Russian Navy.

Amur-1650 proposed under Project 75(I) is essentially a highly customised vessel with attributes coming in from Lada/Amur-class and also from proposed refinements of Kalina-Class. Igor also confirmed that AIP system has cleared land-based trials and he is hopeful that underwater trials would go off as smoothly as they had on shore-based trials .

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The problem with this will be AIP. The Lada was expected to sport it , but now 3 more Ladas are being built without AIP, and Russia aims to get next generation submarines AIP.

In a direct and fair competition , its TKMS beating the rest.

 

[kaykay]

The problem with this will be AIP. The Lada was expected to sport it , but now 3 more Ladas are being built without AIP, and Russia aims to get next generation submarines AIP.

In a direct and fair competition , its TKMS beating the rest.

How come TKMS? That too when they are not offering any VLS? If type-214 then why not more Scorpenes?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

How come TKMS? That too when they are not offering any VLS? If type-214 then why not more Scorpenes?

We expect the biggest company in submarine building to be smart enough to offer a solution which meets our requirements. And who says its Type214 on offer , are they dumb to again offer a system to which they lost a decade ago when their opponents willoffer a better system than a decade ago ?

On scorpenes, they have nothing to do with P75I. 2 Follow on orders will see Indian Navy totally replacing its Type 209 and non upgraded/older 5 Kilos.

 

[Mufflerman]

Scorpene is a tiny shit submarine with its primary ASM as the 4 decade old subsonic Exocet.
The only reason it won the previous contract was the French bribing the mod.
We should be buying a submarine with weapons package as primary specification and endurance as secondary. If that were the case the kilo (now Amur) wins hands down.

 

[guest11]

The one thing that was going for Amur was VLS and that too was for Amur 950. Brahmos NG with its reduced diameter of .5 meters is going to pretty much negate that advantage.

 

[Mufflerman]

The one thing that was going for Amur was VLS and that too was for Amur 950. Brahmos NG with its reduced diameter of .5 meters is going to pretty much negate that advantage.

Brahmos NG is a decade away from sub sea deployment sir. And at least 5 years away from surface version.
We cannot make a sub acquisition today based on a potential weapon. It has to be based on exiting proven weapons platforms.

 

[guest11]

Brahmos NG is a decade away from sub sea deployment sir. And at least 5 years away from surface version.
We cannot make a sub acquisition today based on a potential weapon. It has to be based on exiting proven weapons platforms.

No sir necessary, thanks.

You misunderstood. VLS for Brahmos in Amur was supposed to be the USP of the submarine. If one can use similar capability from let's say Type 214, the chances of Amur dwindles even further. I am not saying that a sub is to acquired on the basis of a potential weapon system.

I am saying that "that potential system" can be used regardless of the sub make and model and till that day comes you are free to use any number of sub launched missiles like Klub or Harpoon like the rest of the world.

 

[SR-91]

@nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Abingdonboy @SR-91 @nang2 @Stephen Cohen @anant_s

@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @ranjeet

@GURU DUTT
http://idrw.org/amur-1650-offered-t...t-of-several-submarines-rubin-ceo/#more-98811

Igor V Vilnit,CEO Rubin Design Bureau in a recent Interview to Indian media house has said that ” Russia has offered State-of-the-art Amur-1650 conventional submarines based on Lada-Class under Make in India programme under Project 75(I) .

Igor also added that Amur-1650 offered to India will take best of Lada-Class submarines currently under construction at Admiralty Shipyards in St Petersburg but also will carry forward several refinements of Lada-Class and further developments from little known Kalina-Class conventional submarines project .

Kalina-Class conventional submarines project is further refinement of Lada-Class submarines based on suggestions provided by Russian Navy . Kalina-Class submarines will be designed from the outsets as AIP-equipped vessels which will be more capable than previous versions and will come incorporating all the improvements asked by Russian Navy.

Amur-1650 proposed under Project 75(I) is essentially a highly customised vessel with attributes coming in from Lada/Amur-class and also from proposed refinements of Kalina-Class. Igor also confirmed that AIP system has cleared land-based trials and he is hopeful that underwater trials would go off as smoothly as they had on shore-based trials .

IMHO, next generation scorpenes based on SMX will win the tender. India probably is getting a lot of technical help, high tech and support on many of our projects in works. I think it was part of Rafale deal + Scorpenes deal.

@PARIKRAMA, love to hear if you know something here "and/or" can share with us here.

 

[Mufflerman]

No sir necessary, thanks.

You misunderstood. VLS for Brahmos in Amur was supposed to be the USP of the submarine. If one can use similar capability from let's say Type 214, the chances of Amur dwindles even further. I am not saying that a sub is to acquired on the basis of a potential weapon system.

I am saying that "that potential system" can be used regardless of the sub make and model and till that day comes you are free to use any number of sub launched missiles like Klub or Harpoon like the rest of the world.

Brahmos won't fit in type 214. Unless you are suggesting another potent weapon that can fit in a smaller bla that can fit in type 214. I am not aware of any such weapon system. The Klub will but is not compatible with western subs.

We have to accept that Russian subsea ASM weapons tech is unmatched. This is because of their naval doctrine of a sub intensive force to counter the CVN intensive navies of the West.

Btw harpoon is also shit. Today's Ship based AAW will shoot down anything under Mach 2 with ease pretty much rendering all the xocet harpoon types toothless. Sorry but this is true.
The scorpene is basically a white elephant with big lungs.

 

[guest11]

Brahmos won't fit in type 214. Unless you are suggesting another potent weapon that can fit in a smaller bla that can fit in type 214. I am not aware of any such weapon system. The Klub will but is not compatible with western subs.

We have to accept that Russian subsea ASM weapons tech is unmatched. This is because of their naval doctrine of a sub intensive force to counter the CVN intensive navies of the West.

My bad, I should have been clearer. Brahmos for VLS (Amur) and Brahmos NG for tube launched. You are free to go for any tube launched AShM till Brahmos NG is ready.

Agreed, even today Russians are far ahead when it comes anti ship missiles.

 

[Mufflerman]

My bad, I should have been clearer. Brahmos for VLS (Amur) and Brahmos NG for tube launched. You are free to go for any tube launched AShM till Brahmos NG is ready.

Agreed, even today Russians are far ahead when it comes anti ship missiles.

I was not aware that B NG is to be made tube launch capable. Because it's an air breathing ramjet. Even with the nose cover it won't be simple. But if that works then many possibilities come up. Also have to consider only 4 torpedo tubes in a small sub. If two are loaded with Ashm it leaves only two for lightweight and heavyweight torpedoes.

This is why US sub philosophy is he best. Big ssn boomers with dozens of cruisers in VLS config.

India should scrap the p75i and focus on 12 SSNin my view. Will be future proof for any weapon system.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

P75I do we really need it now?

Priority should be 6SSNs first.

6+3+3 scorpenes, present upgraded kilos and/or 2 more may be 636 ones should be enough for some time.

We should focus on SSN project and pour our money in that.

On brahmos when NG comes all SSK torpedo tubes wud b in position to fire if it's fittable and made compatible. So why shud we need VLS. Only VLS we need is for Nirhay,K15,K4,K5 types mix.. Thus effectively the charm of P75I is fast getting lost.. In fact we should rather scrap it.

(By NG I mean the smaller one not the hypersonic one,may b better way to say is mini)

 

[R!CK]

If Project 75I is going to materialize soon, it could be the Germans winning it. This is just an assumption, because French are getting follow-on Scorpenes and Russians are getting limited number of advanced Kilo orders. Considering the ability of Germans to guide the local industry, which could be useful if a private yard is selected for the contract. This is one of the fact , that pulled the Turks towards Type-214. It is expected to have 80% total value of local content for the Turkish subs.

And the Germans and French have a more mature AIP in my opinion unless the plan is to incorporate DRDO AIP.

 

[guest11]

Don't know man. Very few details have come out. But hey, Brahmos was also just a surface launched anti ship missile just like its parental design, Yakhont.

@Mufflerman