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Amrullah Saleh: To clarify they R not refges.They live N AfPak distputed territory

Amrullah Saleh's an extremist, foaming at the mouth, rabbid, Pakistan hating, former NA war lord.
He too was once one of those, hungry, broken, nameless and countryless refugees who came seeking our aid, whom we did aid.
 
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Good post -- but I'd like to add some notes on how this event is viewed in mainstream scholarship, including Japanese [not that I agree with the points but I thought it would be useful to add them]

1. The two nuclear bombs were dropped in 1946 -- the world vis-a-vis human rights has progressed much since then
2. A lot of scholars argue that the number of civilians killed by the nuclear bomb were actually equal or less than would have been killed by conventional bombing of the two cities -- I think they cite: more people died in the conventional bombing of Tokyo and perhaps Dresden
3. The Japanese (and Japanese members can please clarify) that the Japanese were in a sense relieved to surrender to the US -- the alternative, if the war got prolonged would have been the Soviets and they would not have been charitable

On the point of how contemporary Japanese view contemporary Americans: yes it amazing that the Japanese view Americans as their best friends and I agree people of Afghanistan and Pakistan can learn much from this example -- our thinking is too petty.

The issue is not numbers here. The issue is not the justification. The issue is not about morality of nuclear weapons. No, the issue is forgiveness and move forward. The fact is two nuclear devices were dropped on Japanese cities. Millions perished in that war. Over 3 million Japanese died at the hands of Americans. Over half million American died at the hands of Japanese. Most of Japan was leveled. This is fact and not subjective rendering.

You have to respect the Japanes bravery and vigour. They fought like tigers for 5 years. You got to respect American's they sent their young boys on the beaches of Iwo Jima. Many never came home. Many still lie at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

Now think of all the millions. Add them up. Line up all the dead. add up all the blood spilled. aggregate the pain and suffering of all the families on both sides.

Now look at the Japanese and Americans. Like bloody brothers. Ask @Nihonjin1051

A lay observer today would think that it was rose petals that the Americans dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasakhi, Japan. A lay observer looking at Afghan/Pak would think the Afghans dropped nuclear bombs on Islamabad and Lahore. A lay observer would think Pak launched Pearl Harbour on Afghanistan.

But then have you seen USA? Pakistan is no America.
But then have you seen Japan? Afghanistan is no Japan.

That is why we are stuck at the bottom of Sh*te list and they both are powers on earth. Maybe because they fight war like great men and have the will to fight for peace like great men.
 
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Let's nuke Afghanistan so they become peaceful like Japan:p::devil:

Or let's invade the southern earsten part of Afghanistan. Its a less populated region.

Or just go beat the crap out of them, take their military equipment and come back.


Afghanistan and Pakistan will share the same path towards a bright future, there are challenge now, but both can work together. Let us also consider that Afghanistan has only recently become a democracy , for years and even in instance of the present -- the country has been ruled by regional warlords. This is the reality in the ground, and we must be pragmatic in addressing the problems, the shared goals, and possibility for greater Pakistan-Afghanistan inter-state cooperation.

In fact, i am writing a paper on this paradigm. Will tag you gents when I post it in the Senior's Cafe section.

:)

afghanistan_pakistan_peace.jpg


My friend this is dangerous development,i have seen many of there supporters after I-11 Afghan illegal ending popping up,that time there were no Afghans on our land but today there are 7 million.

Would not it be better to encourage these Afghani transnationalists with the prospects of attaining permanent residency and eventual citizenship , concurrent with that these Afghani transnationalists , especially the children, should be assimilated into the Pakistan Nation State.

What's your view on that?
 
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Amrullah Saleh's an extremist, foaming at the mouth, rabbid, Pakistan hating, former NA war lord.
He too was once one of those, hungry, broken, nameless and countryless refugees who came seeking our aid, whom we did aid.

another ingrate whose career and bread relies on anti Pakistan anti military anti entire security establishment of Pakistan.

He also doesn't respect the Durand line either as I've seen on his Twitter rants. Even the schizophrenic karzai had a falling out with him - that says a lot doesn't it!
 
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Lastly, I believe it is important that national identity is begun early on in childhood, the children's attendance in Pakistan schools, indoctrination into the Pakistan Nation State, adherence and reverence to the Pakistan Flag, Salute to the Flag, and said processes should be encouraged now. And aggressively.
 
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The guy is a regular Pakistan basher........ let him suffer in that helplessness feeling..........
 
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Lol. No. Nothing of that sort is in the design. We are comfortable with what we have. At least I am.

Your faith compels you... :( Okay. My culture states that we are all the Same. :D But yeah, I get your point. Though I agree that an overwhelming number of Muslims will side with a Muslim for being a Muslim, the same isn't true for a Hindu. I will side with Kalam any day over, say, any random Hindu for example. I am sure, most Indians, regardless of faith will do likewise. But it is also true that Islam is not truly followed in India - it's more of a mix. Only now are the purists coming to the picture.

Anyway, long time no see. Hope you are doing well. I have gone back to do my Masters, after about 4 years in the industry. It was tough in the beginning. New life. :)

You may be, but many a hard-liner within the state structure may not be.. and that tends to propagate simply based on the prevailing culture in the state machinery.. much as corporate culture tends to pass down in a firm.. UNLESS.. there is change agent who knows how to manage change and creates it.

The culture isnt that different either, the issue as I said is dependant on where faith or religion or whether you like driods or apple lies within your core belief. I'll skin you alive over Apple vs Droid whilst sparing you over your religious beliefs :P

Im doing very well by gods grace.. American has been very very kind to me.. and success has been quick and satisfying..
Pretty disheartened with Desis though since they are a menace here too.. everywhere they go.. So I hate all of them without any bias.

@Oscar. You are an educated man ... But your remarks about Afghans who also share ethnic ties with US!Your remarks Were pathetic and uncalled for...

Could have been better worded considering there are ethnic relationships with our people. but once you cross that Durand line.. I do not consider those people of even remotely close stock in terms of mannerism or loyalty or family values to those on our side. For that matter I much rather call everyone for their genetic makeup and stains from invaders rather than be politically correct.
The entire land of the subcontinent all the way to Bengal has had people screw them in literal terms and create new lines..
However, save the Punjabis who managed to make some inroads into Afghanistan and the ethnic lines there.. very little genetic spread was taken from the land of Ashoka.

To be fair, he never said this, certainly not in this particular thread, what he said was that the Afghans (what ever that means) could have wiped out the entire Punjabi population, the important point is he said COULD and not SHOULD, I strongly disagree with him on this point as no Afghan force could have pulled such an exploit off, and if he believe they could have then one can argue Chandragupta, Ashoka, Hindu Shahis etc could have done the same to the Afghan population

Well, history has shown that invaders going down east have always had better luck.. be it Greeks or the Turkic men or the Afghans.. that has a lot to do with the rather indefensible plains(vis a vis) of Punjab as compared to the Terrain of say Afghanistan. For that matter Ranjit Singh deserves credit for his advances into the area.

My contention is always with this martial race bullshit that he thinks himself of and considers his culture and makeup superior to others.. when you claim that.. you are a Ch**** and no more and everything less in my view.
Because that martial race theory has no basis in genetics but in society. The Spartans were superior fighters because their society evolved around that.. take a spartan child and shift him to Lesbos where men had lesser power.. and see that child turn into a wimp. The same goes for all such claims of Martial races.

There is certain genetic disposition to violence perhaps due to chemical imbalances but that is very rare.

The same goes for the Arabs too as such during the time of the Prophet if one really looks at it, the society had a culture of warring tribal feuds and so on. What Islam did was to simply organize this existing ethos into a potent force.

So coming back to whether the Afghans or rather the mix of Pashtun, Tajik etc etc could have swept accross India?
I doubt it. Especially during the timeframe concerned.. all things considered there were still potent similar warrior societies in the Marathas.. and other Punjabi clans that would have stemmed that tide eventually.

Leadership however, is what makes the difference at the end.
Had the Mughals put up similar military organization and Leadership that could challenge Nadir Shah.. he would not have made it beyond the Indus.
 
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Afghanistan and Pakistan will share the same path towards a bright future, there are challenge now, but both can work together. Let us also consider that Afghanistan has only recently become a democracy , for years and even in instance of the present -- the country has been ruled by regional warlords. This is the reality in the ground, and we must be pragmatic in addressing the problems, the shared goals, and possibility for greater Pakistan-Afghanistan inter-state cooperation.

In fact, i am writing a paper on this paradigm. Will tag you gents when I post it in the Senior's Cafe section.

:)

afghanistan_pakistan_peace.jpg




Would not it be better to encourage these Afghani transnationalists with the prospects of attaining permanent residency and eventual citizenship , concurrent with that these Afghani transnationalists , especially the children, should be assimilated into the Pakistan Nation State.

What's your view on that?

A lot of that has to do with the early on Alienation that these refugees faced( and at the same time exhibited via isolation). I have quite a few Afghani friends both from my time living in the northwest of Pakistan and here in the US. And they were VERY unanimous about their opinion on the idea of ethnic brotherhood with their Pakistani kin; if it came to the ethnicities that live in Pakistan trying to unite with their kind in Afghanistan.. the Afghani ones would burn them in the streets.. there is a real hatred that sprung over the way refugee camps and refugees were treated even after all this time. (the fairness or unfairness of which is another thread entirely).
The Afghan Pashtun has no love for the Pakistani Pashtun despite the delusions of many.. the only exceptions are those cross border tribes with recent intermarriages(20-30 years ago).
 
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Lastly, I believe it is important that national identity is begun early on in childhood, the children's attendance in Pakistan schools, indoctrination into the Pakistan Nation State, adherence and reverence to the Pakistan Flag, Salute to the Flag, and said processes should be encouraged now. And aggressively.
It's a weird phenomena ... I have afghan friends in Pak... Who were born here ... Went to schools same as us... Even army run schools... Some had never even seen their own country... Some who did came back and told me how afghanistan felt "foriegn" to them and how their relatives in Afghanistan called them Pakistanis... Than there were some whom I befriended in college.. And never knew they were Afghans until recentl when I met old friends and they mentioned it... These people themselves (generations born in Pak) are confused .... Their parent teach them they are afghans... But it never really works out... Even Pashtuns from KPK and Balochistan (provinces that border Afghanistan.. don't have any liking for them due to their habits and customs ... Infact they are ether notorious for being criminal minded and involved in crimes ... most people don't want rent them houses etc due to things like that... They hate us .... And still over 60,000 afghans cross the border everyday..

Lastly, I believe it is important that national identity is begun early on in childhood, the children's attendance in Pakistan schools, indoctrination into the Pakistan Nation State, adherence and reverence to the Pakistan Flag, Salute to the Flag, and said processes should be encouraged now. And aggressively.
It's a weird phenomena ... I have afghan friends in Pak... Who were born here ... Went to schools same as us... Even army run schools... Some had never even seen their own country... Some who did came back and told me how afghanistan felt "foriegn" to them and how their relatives in Afghanistan called them Pakistanis... Than there were some whom I befriended in college.. And never knew they were Afghans until recentl when I met old friends and they mentioned it... These people themselves (generations born in Pak) are confused .... Their parent teach them they are afghans... But it never really works out... Even Pashtuns from KPK and Balochistan (provinces that border Afghanistan.. don't have any liking for them due to their habits and customs ... Infact they are ether notorious for being criminal minded and involved in crimes ... most people don't want rent them houses etc due to things like that... They hate us .... And still over 60,000 afghans cross the border everyday..
 
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Lastly, I believe it is important that national identity is begun early on in childhood, the children's attendance in Pakistan schools, indoctrination into the Pakistan Nation State, adherence and reverence to the Pakistan Flag, Salute to the Flag, and said processes should be encouraged now. And aggressively.

the problem in Pakistan is that the leadership is too busy in vendettas and acting like mob bosses; they oversee these basic principles.

Amazing that our friends such as yourself can note these things but not these buffoons who are elected officials
 
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the problem in Pakistan is that the leadership is too busy in vendettas and acting like mob bosses; they oversee these basic principles.

Amazing that our friends such as yourself can note these things but not these buffoons who are elected officials
Bro what do you think should be done to Afghan refugee..? Send em back or give millions of them citizenship?
 
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Bro what do you think should be done to Afghan refugee..? Send em back or give millions of them citizenship?

It's really difficult to answer. It's one of those things we need to micro-manage somehow and view on case by case basis.....some deserve amnesty and citizenship as they pay taxes and raised children here and dont create a trouble....others who have criminal behaviour or show no delay in stabbing us in the back should be removed immediately

it's complicated - but i will say that we need to put priority on our own people first.....people displaced from insurgency who are Pakistani citizens deserve to be given the first priority and it's the fed and prov. govts that are responsible for this
 
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@Abu Zolfiqar , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Oscar , gentlemen,

Thank you so much for your in depth explanation of the inter-ethnic discord relating to the Afghan pashtun and the Pakistan pashtun and the like. I suppose we have to take into consideration the effects of terrorism in the tribal belt region within Pakistan as well as in the adjacent region within Afghanistan. In my attempt to study the situation in Northwestern Pakistan as well as in the Eastern sector in Afghanistan near the Upper Kurram district, one thing I notice is that one of the causes of misunderstanding is due to the porous border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. This porous nature enables security threats to cross each others' borders and evade security forces from both countries.

Tho one thing I believe is necessary is that there needs to be increased military cooperation and communication between the Armed Forces of Pakistan and the Armed Forces of Afghanistan so as to evade unfortuante cross-border skirmishes. I remember one incident where some 60 Afghan soldiers crossed the border into Pakistan into Pakistan's semi-autonomous tribal belt region and whence there, the Afghan security forces killed suspects.
Clearly this is a security threat because we can't have military personnel from another country coming into another nation's territory and violate it unannounced without the approval or joint cooperation by said country's military.

There is potential in this area for Pakistan to reign in Afghanistan into Pakistan's orbit by building stronger military cooperation, who knows even possibility for joint military exercises and patrols. I guess this is one special context for us to consider in regards to the tribal sensitivities in this region of Pakistan and Afghanistan; this is just a reality and i suppose people around the world fail to understand intra-tribal and inter-tribal social mechanics and culture. To understand that aspect, is to understand the various communities in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

This is one of the reasons why I have said that Pakistan and Afghanistan have a 'shared' responsibility and a shared pathway. Both countries, sans ethnocentricism, need each other in the long term. And the current misunderstandings seen in ethnic discord within Pakistan (especially regarding Afghan refugees) is due, i suppose, to this lack in intergovernmentalism between both countries.

Identifying this problem is the first step; the first step to finding a common, practical solution.




Regards,
 
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hes not my kinsmen and I openly denounce and send Lanat on ethnic posters (you are on the same boat).
Well said man,he draws ethnic boundaries in Any thread,the same behavior i have seen in all of Afgans but there was one,currently in kabul I asked him about this,he replied
"No doubt we have fought many battles,but what we have got from that After the death of Ahmed Shah,Afghanistan is a scattered country.Brits tried there best but staying in Kabul was difficult Because Afridis will not let go Brits supply easily,You see Afghanistan in this shape it's all because of it's neighbors who have no interest in taking our lands,if they would have been like some of our Peoples think then there would have been no Afghanistan because even today with such huge force and ISAF presence there is no central GOVT in Kabul.We need to take out that behaviors which Pakistani Pashtuns have ended that's only way forward."
Even sensible Afghans are againt Peoples like samundri and Amrullah but sadly that's all Peoples on International level see, on Afghanistan face.
I am not a Bigot,but sundri is always glorifying Afghanistan while bashing Pakistan and labeling any one defending Pakistan as Punjabi while licking Indian's arse on forum.Pakistan is collection of finest Peoples from brave Afridis to Humble sindhis From moderate Punjabis to Angry Baloch.Peoples like sundri don't get it,i bet he haven't even crossed Durand line and he always talks about Pakhtoonwali but never Practices it,i think he is one of Norwegion breed.
That Afghani has Replied me on Amrullah this new game,i will post it and it will blow you mind...........
 
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@Abu Zolfiqar , @DESERT FIGHTER , @Oscar , gentlemen,

Thank you so much for your in depth explanation of the inter-ethnic discord relating to the Afghan pashtun and the Pakistan pashtun and the like. I suppose we have to take into consideration the effects of terrorism in the tribal belt region within Pakistan as well as in the adjacent region within Afghanistan. In my attempt to study the situation in Northwestern Pakistan as well as in the Eastern sector in Afghanistan near the Upper Kurram district, one thing I notice is that one of the causes of misunderstanding is due to the porous border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. This porous nature enables security threats to cross each others' borders and evade security forces from both countries.

borders have changed over time but not demographics.....some hostile elements want to change the demographics and change the international borders and we cant allow it to happen b/c the days of invasions and conquests are long over....

the terrain of the region is so unruly and complex that it's nearly humanly impossible to monitor every inch of it....for years thousands have crossed both sides and to many of the tribal people the border is just a line. There's a rich cross-over of tribes on both sides and this gives Pakistan and Afghanistan the basis either for GOOD ties or BAD ties at the same time. By this i mean the states, not the people necessarily - though even on people basis you have ethnic groups or parties representing ethnic groups that have created a perpetual state of mistrust - e.g. Afghan taleban (Pashtuns) and the Northern Alliance (Tajiks mostly) and the Hazara warlords - small in number but also part of the broader picture.

by the way Upper Kurram is my ancestral home :)

Tho one thing I believe is necessary is that there needs to be increased military cooperation and communication between the Armed Forces of Pakistan and the Armed Forces of Afghanistan so as to evade unfortuante cross-border skirmishes. I remember one incident where some 60 Afghan soldiers crossed the border into Pakistan into Pakistan's semi-autonomous tribal belt region and whence there, the Afghan security forces killed suspects.

In many cases they crossed over and walked into ambushes and were caught with their pants down. This was especially the case under the Daud leadership when he sent afghan fighters into Pakistani territory to try capturing Bajaur Agency -- he mis-calculated, thinking Pakistanis of Bajaur would turn against Pakistan and fight for Afghanistan. If only he knew what the REAL result would be. He embarrassed himself and his country and did a huge dis-service to his OWN people - not Pakistan.

Military cooperation is crucial and this is what NATO has been desperately pushing for. There has been cooperation in the sense that they can pick up the phone and get in touch with people manning forward observation posts on our side or even general headquarters but there is serious dis-trust. We all know why.


Clearly this is a security threat because we can't have military personnel from another country coming into another nation's territory and violate it unannounced without the approval or joint cooperation by said country's military.

They know that it's not in their interests to dare. We have never sent our forces into Afghanistan. There have been times I have advocated it if hot pursuit was required but we did not.


There is potential in this area for Pakistan to reign in Afghanistan into Pakistan's orbit by building stronger military cooperation, who knows even possibility for joint military exercises and patrols

again - it's an issue of trust - it takes time to build it. The fact that Ghani won the election was a huge boost towards rebuilding trust. The previous Afghan leadership was schizophrenic and mentally unstable. Even the Americans had to learn that the hard way.



I guess this is one special context for us to consider in regards to the tribal sensitivities in this region of Pakistan and Afghanistan; this is just a reality and i suppose people around the world fail to understand intra-tribal and inter-tribal social mechanics and culture. To understand that aspect, is to understand the various communities in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Complexities which even some urbanized Pakistanis do not fully fathom - let alone the outside world.


This is one of the reasons why I have said that Pakistan and Afghanistan have a 'shared' responsibility and a shared pathway. Both countries, sans ethnocentricism, need each other in the long term. And the current misunderstandings seen in ethnic discord within Pakistan (especially regarding Afghan refugees) is due, i suppose, to this lack in intergovernmentalism between both countries.


Identifying this problem is the first step; the first step to finding a common, practical solution.

There cant be 100% peace and stability in Pakistan without peace and stability and a semblance of writ of state in Afghanistan. It's simply not possible.

I agree fully with your views on this, brother. And I would love to see you visit our country sometime and spend some time to enjoy just as I would love to be a guest in yours.
 
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