Amid Russia tensions, producing F-35 fighter jets without Turkey possible: US sources

[kamranofficial]

WASHINGTON: Excluding NATO-member Turkey from the trillion-dollar F-35 fighter jet program would be challenging due to Ankara’s integral role in the stealthy jet’s production process, but not impossible, US sources familiar with the situation said.

Last week Reuters reported that the United States could soon freeze preparations for delivering F-35 fighter jets to Turkey, a move that would widen the rift between Ankara and Washington, the latest disagreement in a years-long standoff.

At the heart of the matter lies Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan’s commitment to buy a Russian air defense system that the United States says would compromise the security of F-35 aircraft, which is built by Lockheed Martin Corp.

The United States and other NATO allies who own F-35 fighter jets fear the radar on the Russian S-400 missile system will learn how to spot and track the F-35, making it less able to evade Russian weapons in the future.

The United States has offered Turkey the more expensive, Patriot anti-missile system at a discount that expires at the end of March, but on the condition that Ankara drop its plans to buy the S-400.

So far Ankara has not shown any willingness to reverse the S-400 purchase, forcing the United States to explore a future for the F-35 program without Turkey, which makes parts of the fuselage, landing gear and cockpit displays.

Two U.S. sources familiar with the F-35’s intricate, worldwide production process and U.S. thinking on the issue say Turkey can be replaced. Officials with the Pentagon and the Turkish embassy declined to comment.

“There are about 800 parts that Turkey makes for the F-35, and of them, very few are sole source,” said a person with direct knowledge of the U.S. position, explaining that single source parts from Turkey can be replaced by contractors who had previously bid to make them.

“Turkey is not too big to fail,” the person said.

Replacing or finding substitutes for the Turkish components would slow production for a three-month period at the Lockheed Martin facility that builds the jets, the person said.

Lockheed declined to comment.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu in December said Ankara plays a significant role in the production of the trillion-dollar jet and therefore removing it from the program would not be easy.

But sources say several components of the F-35 made in Turkey, can be easily replaced. For example, the center fuselage produced in Ankara, could be made by Northrop Grumman Corp , which already makes them in California.

In the mean time, more Turkish pilots are set to begin training at U.S. air force bases, joining the Turkish pilots already there and Ankara still hopes to take delivery of two aircraft in November.

Acting U.S. Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan said on Tuesday he wants Turkey to remain in the F-35 fighter jet program, but added that Ankara needed to buy the Patriot missile defense system.

 

[Cookie Monster]

IMO it would be a big mistake for US and NATO to have a fallout with Turkey like this. Considering Turkey's location, military, and economy among the NATO members...it would weaken NATO and it will go in favor of Russia if Turkey withdrew from NATO.

 

[nahtanbob]

IMO it would be a big mistake for US and NATO to have a fallout with Turkey like this. Considering Turkey's location, military, and economy among the NATO members...it would weaken NATO and it will go in favor of Russia if Turkey withdrew from NATO.

turkey needs West more than the other way around
Russia is no position to help anyone

 

[Cookie Monster]

turkey needs West more than the other way around
Russia is no position to help anyone

I'm not saying Russia is going to help Turkey...plz read my post again.

I'm saying that if NATO is to act as a hedge against Russia, then NATO is better off with Turkey than without.

As for Turkey needing West...I dont think it's as big a deal. I mean sure Turkey would need the west but not in a hugely crucial manner. Turkey's only major enemy is Greece(externally) and Kurds(internally). Kurds don't pose a significant challenge to Turkey and neither does Greece(due to an economic mess). Russia would also pose a challenge but if Turkey stops being part of NATO, Russia would mostly leave it alone bcuz Russia already has enough adversaries(remaining NATO members and US). Russia would be glad about having one less NATO member and Turkey can act neutrally in return. Turkey has also managed to stay out of the traditional Arab/Persian rivalry and hasn't really picked sides...and as far as Israel, Turkey can stay neutral there too. Israel too would probably reciprocate bcuz Israel already has a long list of enemies(Iran, Egypt, and Arab countries).

Ur statement about Turkey needing West would've been true in the cold war era with the threat of USSR...but the geopolitical calculus of that region has changed a great deal. Turkey can now sort of follow a policy of neutrality and appeasement(in some cases) and it will do just fine.

 

[nahtanbob]

I'm not saying Russia is going to help Turkey...plz read my post again.

I'm saying that if NATO is to act as a hedge against Russia, then NATO is better off with Turkey than without.

As for Turkey needing West...I dont think it's as big a deal. I mean sure Turkey would need the west but not in a hugely crucial manner. Turkey's only major enemy is Greece(externally) and Kurds(internally). Kurds don't pose a significant challenge to Turkey and neither does Greece(due to an economic mess). Russia would also pose a challenge but if Turkey stops being part of NATO, Russia would mostly leave it alone bcuz Russia already has enough adversaries(remaining NATO members and US). Russia would be glad about having one less NATO member and Turkey can act neutrally in return. Turkey has also managed to stay out of the traditional Arab/Persian rivalry and hasn't really picked sides...and as far as Israel, Turkey can stay neutral there too. Israel too would probably reciprocate bcuz Israel already has a long list of enemies(Iran, Egypt, and Arab countries).

Ur statement about Turkey needing West would've been true in the cold war era with the threat of USSR...but the geopolitical calculus of that region has changed a great deal. Turkey can now sort of follow a policy of neutrality and appeasement(in some cases) and it will do just fine.

turkey gains nothing with neutrality with respect to NATO. during the cold war they might get goodies playing both sides. turkey can be neutral on Arab/Persian, Israel/Arab rivalries to play off both sides and gain benefits
Russia benefits with one less NATO member for sure

 

[Cookie Monster]

turkey gains nothing with neutrality with respect to NATO. during the cold war they might get goodies playing both sides. turkey can be neutral on Arab/Persian, Israel/Arab rivalries to play off both sides and gain benefits
Russia benefits with one less NATO member for sure

Yeah Turkey wouldn't gain anything from being neutral to NATO...but NATO would be weaker without Turkey(not weak...just weaker). So in the big scheme of things it's more in the interest of NATO to keep Turkey in the fold than vice versa.

 

[crankthatskunk]

I think Turkey has played a very daft hand here. They didn't act smart. What they could have done that first taken delivery of some of the F 35 before declaring their interests and intentions to buy S 400 from Russia. That way all the reasons now given by the USA would be dead and buried. Kaput.

On the issue of Turkey in the NATO.

Turkey wants to be in NATO. It gives its exposure to the latest technology, which in turn has given its capabilities to build local facilities to produce parts for advance fighter jet like F 35. These capabilities wouldn't have been possible if Turkey was not in NATO. It would have been like Pakistan, struggling to get even F 16, which is old technology.
The newer Block 70/72 for F 16 wouldn't be given to Pakistan, there is almost consensus on it on this forum.

Therefore, those who are professing Turkey's leaving NATO are mistaken, no Turkish think tank or official would agree on it.

Turkey had been struggling to convince the EU members to give it the membership of EU. Turkey until today failed to convince EU for a simple reason that Turkey is an Islamic country, which doesn't sit well with EU members.
Imagine the impact of Turkey leaving NATO!! Turkish are not such fools that they would do it. It has provided almost equal assistance to Turkey both financially and in military hardware in relation to Israel from USA.

 

[Tshering22]

I think Turkey has played a very daft hand here. They didn't act smart. What they could have done that first taken delivery of some of the F 35 before declaring their interests and intentions to buy S 400 from Russia. That way all the reasons now given by the USA would be dead and buried. Kaput.

On the issue of Turkey in the NATO.

Turkey wants to be in NATO. It gives its exposure to the latest technology, which in turn has given its capabilities to build local facilities to produce parts for advance fighter jet like F 35. These capabilities wouldn't have been possible if Turkey was not in NATO. It would have been like Pakistan, struggling to get even F 16, which is old technology.
The newer Block 70/72 for F 16 wouldn't be given to Pakistan, there is almost consensus on it on this forum.

Therefore, those who are professing Turkey's leaving NATO are mistaken, no Turkish think tank or official would agree on it.

Turkey had been struggling to convince the EU members to give it the membership of EU. Turkey until today failed to convince EU for a simple reason that Turkey is an Islamic country, which doesn't sit well with EU members.
Imagine the impact of Turkey leaving NATO!! Turkish are not such fools that they would do it. It has provided almost equal assistance to Turkey both financially and in military hardware in relation to Israel from USA.

So what do you propose Turkey should do in this instance, if US blocks the deliveries of F-35? Turkey was a capital investor in the programme and obviously US will not return the money back to them. This would mean that Turks would then be pressed to use the F-35 parts manufacturing facility for the upcoming TF-X jet.

Since TF-X is nowhere close to reality, there is a high chance that US will likely threaten them to abandon the programme in favour of F-16 Vipers or suffer sanctions on the existing all-F-16 fleet of Turkish Air Force.

Of course, I am assuming the worst possible scenario.

In that case, Turkey would actually have two options:

1- Declare security emergency and quadruple the efforts and funding of TF-X to release early. Once released, they can forget a US-based engine. RR or Eurojet might also refuse to give them engines due to pressure from US (UK and Germany really cannot tell US a big "NO"; their survival depends on US).

France could give them Snecma engines though as a stop-gap measure till Turkish turbofan engine is released.

Or else the other option would be Russian engine if everything else fails.

2- If at all that is not possible, then they can continue "illegally" producing F-16 aircraft and related engine parts without US license, cancel all future license agreements and may also threaten to leave NATO as a whole since anyway they won't access to anything hi-tech that US does not want them to. This measure would keep their jets in the air, but also risk a serious political fall-out between Turkey and US. With one more year of Trump to go, thinks could spiral down really bad.

 

[crankthatskunk]

So what do you propose Turkey should do in this instance, if US blocks the deliveries of F-35? Turkey was a capital investor in the programme and obviously US will not return the money back to them. This would mean that Turks would then be pressed to use the F-35 parts manufacturing facility for the upcoming TF-X jet.

Since TF-X is nowhere close to reality, there is a high chance that US will likely threaten them to abandon the programme in favour of F-16 Vipers or suffer sanctions on the existing all-F-16 fleet of Turkish Air Force.

Of course, I am assuming the worst possible scenario.

In that case, Turkey would actually have two options:

1- Declare security emergency and quadruple the efforts and funding of TF-X to release early. Once released, they can forget a US-based engine. RR or Eurojet might also refuse to give them engines due to pressure from US (UK and Germany really cannot tell US a big "NO"; their survival depends on US).

France could give them Snecma engines though as a stop-gap measure till Turkish turbofan engine is released.

Or else the other option would be Russian engine if everything else fails.

2- If at all that is not possible, then they can continue "illegally" producing F-16 aircraft and related engine parts without US license, cancel all future license agreements and may also threaten to leave NATO as a whole since anyway they won't access to anything hi-tech that US does not want them to. This measure would keep their jets in the air, but also risk a serious political fall-out between Turkey and US. With one more year of Trump to go, thinks could spiral down really bad.

I have just posted another threat, US secretary of Defense thinks that it would be sorted out with Turkey offering them Patriot instead of S 400.
Turkey was foolish, they should have voted for S 40 order placement until he started to receive first batch of F35.

 

[Tshering22]

I have just posted another threat, US secretary of Defense thinks that it would be sorted out with Turkey offering them Patriot instead of S 400.
Turkey was foolish, they should have voted for S 40 order placement until he started to receive first batch of F35.

Not really. The core tech of F-35 remains with US. Imagine had they replaced some of their F-16s with the F-35s and then US refused to ship them, they'd be stuck with the now-useless F-35s in no meaningful numbers or usability.

At least now Turkey can tighten its belt and focus on its own indigenous programme.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Not really. The core tech of F-35 remains with US. Imagine had they replaced some of their F-16s with the F-35s and then US refused to ship them, they'd be stuck with the now-useless F-35s in no meaningful numbers or usability.

At least now Turkey can tighten its belt and focus on its own indigenous programme.

I meant that they should have waited for the delivery of the F 35 before ordering S 400.
Even if the partial shipment is received for F 35, it would have been very difficult for the USA to use the excuse it is using now. That's my point.

 

[MMM-E]

turkey needs West more than the other way around
Russia is no position to help anyone

Russia is far better than all blood sucker and terrorist supportter western countries for Turkey


the US always blocked Turkey to become developed country

but Russians built the first textile , aluminium , iron , steel , petrochemistry factories in Turkey

(today Turkey is number 1 in Europe for textile production and Turkey is number 2 in Europe for steel production )

in 1921 The Russian Government has donated all the necessary equipment for the establishment of a bullet production factory in Ankara, still known as MKE

now Russia invest $35 billion to build the first Nuclear Power Plant in Turkey also TURKSTREAM Gas pipe line

around 50% of total gas import from Russia
There are $100 billion of trade volume target between Turkey and Russia
and every year over 6 millions of Russians comes to Turkey for holiday

about Russia , since 1972 Turkish construction companies built thousands of projects for $355 billion in 119 countries and Russia is in top , and $67 billion of $355 billion from Russia



and thanks to Russia for S400 and early delivery .. also S400 will use Turkish radar software and IFF system
also Russia allow Turkey to use S400 against everyone , everywhere

and Russia is ready for another military projects including to develop Fighter Jet and Turbofan Engine

 

[damm1t]

Turkey won't fail without Nato, lol. This crack will get just bigger, mark my words. Once the world moved to a new trading system with local currencies and new gen SWIFT, the Us will have ant-size leverage on the earth countries. What they gonna do? Coup everywhere or carpet bombing every country?