AMCA Project heading LCA Direction??

[S-DUCT]

@sancho Sir,

From the above picture, even an amateur eye can make out that what was envisioned as an article incorporating certain 5th gen elements has been converted into a project aiming at proper VLO. Not even LO but VLO. While the above model is not rich in details nor particularly high quality it clearly shows a very complex edge alignment, chining and disciplined shaping but that's just the surface when it comes to VLO. Helleven the aft and lower fuselage has been shaped for LO.

Once such a "VLO" airframe is up and running, how will the DRDO/ADA provide for extensive robotic surface coating treatment or appliqué laminate tech, VLO/LO rated antennas, radome with incorporated frequency selective multilayer laminate tech, etc.? Even at best we'll just end up with a shell with 4th gen LRUs, no proper engine or AESA radar. What are these fellows smoking?

IMO,The aircraft is not shaped for all aspect stealth, like the US Raptor (F-22) . Instead, shaping is optimized to minimize frontal Radar Cross Section (RCS).ADA has made little attempt to reduce the radar signature of the aircraft from the rear, relying almost entirely on a reduced IR signature instead. A reduced RCS from the rear is difficult to achieve without very advanced engine technology represented by shaped exhaust nozzles as in the case of the Raptor, or a compromise on performance.

Frequency selective surface (FSS) technology is under development.

DMSRDE has also developed RAM for AURA & AMCA.

 

[Dillinger]

IMO,The aircraft is not shaped for all aspect stealth, like the US Raptor (F-22) . Instead, shaping is optimized to minimize frontal Radar Cross Section (RCS).ADA has made little attempt to reduce the radar signature of the aircraft from the rear, relying almost entirely on a reduced IR signature instead. A reduced RCS from the rear is difficult to achieve without very advanced engine technology represented by shaped exhaust nozzles as in the case of the Raptor, or a compromise on performance.

Frequency selective surface (FSS) technology is under development.

DMSRDE has also developed RAM for AURA & AMCA.

Aside from nozzle LO/VLO solutions we are looking at near J-XX level rear aspect stealth, again look at the aft and lower fuselage- edge alignment continues till the fuselage blends into the nozzle- till that point it is pretty close to the accepted norm of LO/VLO. Only the "platypus tail" nozzle solution is missing. Compare this to the FGFA/PAK-FA where leave alone any nozzle solutions the edge alignment ends mid fuselage from where on onward its a conventional rear and aft fuselage. That's definitely a step up.

Thanks for info on the FSS though, that is an eye-opener indeed.

 

[S-DUCT]

Aside from nozzle LO/VLO solutions we are looking at near J-XX level rear aspect stealth, again look at the aft and lower fuselage- edge alignment continues till the fuselage blends into the nozzle- till that point it is pretty close to the accepted norm of LO/VLO.

I agree that edge alignment along with twin vertical stablisers is must any VLO/LO platform,but having Flat lower fuselage (which is feasible only with S-shaped intakes) is not neccessary ,take for instance YF-23 even if it did'nt had any flat lower fuselage and S-shaped intakes it's considered to the most stealthiest 5th gen. fighter.

Only the "platypus tail" nozzle solution is missing. Compare this to the FGFA/PAK-FA where leave alone any nozzle solutions the edge alignment ends mid fuselage from where on onward its a conventional rear and aft fuselage. That's definitely a step up.

Thanks for info on the FSS though, that is an eye-opener indeed.

Russians are ahead of every nation in GT technology (except USA),Its more likely that they have full working 5th generation GT engines with reduced infrared signatures before any other nation.Due to LEVCONs ,PAK-FA's frontal RCS would be greater than any other 5th gen fighter(not including chinese J-20/21).

^^ PAK-FA is perfectly edge aligned.

 

[Dillinger]

I agree that edge alignment along with twin vertical stablisers is must any VLO/LO platform,but having Flat lower fuselage (which is feasible only with S-shaped intakes) is not neccessary ,take for instance YF-23 even if it did'nt had any flat lower fuselage and S-shaped intakes it's considered to the most stealthiest 5th gen. fighter.






Russians are ahead of every nation in GT technology (except USA),Its more likely that they have full working 5th generation GT engines with reduced infrared signatures before any other nation.Due to LEVCONs ,PAK-FA's frontal RCS would be greater than any other 5th gen fighter(not including chinese J-20/21).

^^ PAK-FA is perfectly edge aligned.

I am talking of the lower-aft fuselage yaara, picture below:-

That is exactly where the AMCA differs- in its case the faceting and straight lined alignment carry on till the beginning of the nozzle area.

Other than that you're spot on and obvio got it in more detail than me.

 

[S-DUCT]

^^
Hmm,you are right it has 4th gen rear lower fuselage.If this thing can be pointed by mere defence enthusiast's like you and me then I think ,Sukhoi DSB must have thought about this.

 

[IND151]

AMCA Project heading LCA Direction??

In recently concluded Aero India 2013, it has emerged that ADA and other DRDO labs are working on final configuration of AMCA which has reached the final stages of its design and ADA in fact showcased a 1:8 model of the AMCA, revealing some of its capabilities via super-graphics.

The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which is spearheading the AMCA mission is already promising fighter aircraft studded with gennext technologies. AMCA will be a multi-role fighter, which will also have adequate strike capability with emphasis on critical opening day missions like SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defense), DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defense) and precision strike.

But Question raised by critics of the project is why similar Lca like approach to the AMCA Project? , Indian Air Force issued the Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA only in April 2010, prior to that ADA was working on the project with very small team, AMCA which ADA was planning in past and AMCA which Indian air force wants in Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA are totally different, AMCA has evolved from a Semi- stealth Multirole aircraft to a true 5th generation fighter which Indian air force wants.

It would e better if we have flexible 5th gen concept. AMCA should be acceptable even if comes out as 4.75 gen fighter and should be inducted

But it seems ADA and other DRDO labs are refusing to learn from their past mistakes which it committed on Lca Project, which is still struggling to reach its Final operational clearance after suffering multiple delays and cost overruns, approach for developing AMCA seems to be in lines with Lca.

Two TD AMCA and then 5 prototypes are planned and first flight has been planned in 2020 and first TD aircraft will be rolled out in next 5 years , but the questions remains are we trusting ADA and DRDO to deliver on critical next generation technologies which they have failed to deliver for lca ?? , Lca is still powered by an American engine and has Indo-Israeli radar, Kaveri engine development has already been delinked from Lca project but development of its successors to power AMCA is still in papers, after years of negotiation with French engine maker Snecma to develop a new engine has failed to yield any result and now plans are to make it a open tender asking other engine manufacturers to participate in a joint venture.



It is unlikely that even AMCA Prototypes (Not TD) will be powered by Indigenous or Jv Jet engine post 2020 , HAL on other hand with 3rd Generation production tools is already suffering to manufacture 4th generation Fighter aircraft Lca. Unless major revamping of HAL Production setup takes place and DRDO comes up with better Project management skills to avoid same delays which it likely will face with AMCA project.

agreed


DRDO should take outside help to get the project in air has fast has possible, AMCA will be replacing large chunk of Strike aircrafts post 2020, that includes whole fleet of Jaguars and Mig-27, First prototype of Pak-Fa will arrive in India in late 2014, which will enable Indian scientist to have a look into 5th gen aircraft technology. Since India is investing heavily in development of Indian variant of FGFA based on PAK-FA, DRDO should borrow heavily from this project to maintain pace of the AMCA project and also to avoid wastage of resources. Avionics and radar of FGFA can be used in AMCA instead of funding parallel developments of avionics only for AMCA.
[it will demand downsizing radar]


LCA Project has already taught us our line of expertises in aircraft technologies, ADA and DRDO has to be realistic and development of technologies should happen where our expertises lies in aircraft technology, instead of inventing everything in AMCA Project, we have to mate current technologies with available technologies to deliver the project in time. Selection of a new engine or even development of new engine should take place before first TD of AMCA had taken its first flight to avoid same mistakes which were committed in LCA for its engine.
AMCA Project heading LCA Direction?? | idrw.org

overall, an good article

 

[IND151]

hope AMCA doesn't get delayed

 

[OrionHunter]

There are two fundamental problems for development of the 5th generation AMCA in India:

> Funding.
> Red tape and gross inefficiency in the functioning of the DRDO.

As regards the funding, an example is Lockheed's F-35 program. The most recent U.S. Defense Department estimates put the current cost of developing, testing and building the F-35 multi-role fighter jet at $396 billion. In contrast the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the development of the Tejas program has been sanctioned a measly $1.2 billion and an additional $542.44 million to develop the Tejas Mk-2!! Less than peanuts compared to what is being spent for the F-35.

Ok, so the Tejas is not in the class of the F-35, but the difference in funding for R&D is just mind boggling! In other words, the R&D cost for the F-35 is almost 150 times that of the Tejas!!!

Working with a shoe string budget of less than $2 billion for a 4+ gen fighter isn't easy. With peanuts you can only get monkeys, though I'm not saying that the Tejas is in that class! But just goes to show what it takes to make a truly world class aircraft in the shortest possible time frame.

And then there's the legendary bureaucratic red tape, little or no transparency, excessive hierarchy, lack of leadership, and a lot of dirty politics within the DRDO which don't need any elaboration. We can crib all we want about delays and shoddy equipment produced by the DRDO but things will only improve if and when there is a complete revamp of the organization and systemic changes are brought about, otherwise it will be more of the same till the cows come home. Amen!

 

[sancho]

@sudhir007

Since S-Duct found some older posts posts of mine about AMCA tup, this would be my prefered solution for our AMCA development:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...mbat-aircraft-amca-project-2.html#post2943915

I consider LCA project a huge success ... its the plane which built the foundations of fighter aircraft industry in India. It did what the Marut or even Su-30MKI couldn't do.

That's not correct, it can be a success only if it gets into serial production and will be inducted into operational service in our forces, otherwise it would even achieve less than the Marut!
That's why it should be the main aim of ADA/DRDO/HAL to get the MK1 ready as soon as possible and not to distract themselfs with other projects. But you are right to say that LCA is not flop either, on the contrary, the main aim of the project was to set up an indigenous are industry and it achieved this goal, although only some fields were successfull so far (materials, avionics mainly) and to keep improving here we need to finish this project, learn from the mistakes and failures, or to get more out of LCAs potential, not to simply take on the next project like ADA/DRDO want to do with AMCA.

The GOI seems to have released some initial funds for this project in some recent news i don't remember correctly. Does this mean there is no synergy between DRDO and armed forces, i mean there would be somebody who would be pushing this other than just DRDO ???

Which once again shows that GoI supports indigenous developments, not matter if they are needed or not and contrary to what many Indians believe. The problem here is only, that there is knowbody that has a clear vision on which way to go and that takes the requirements of the forces to account and let the industry develop things according to this, that's why AMCA project as it is today, is nothing but an ADA/DRDO show off, to prove that they can develop a NG fighter too.
Nobody is pushing ADA/DRDO to develop an NG fighter, they came up with the idea, but logically IAF is not saying no at this point, as long as GoI is willing to fund it.
When I say I will buy you a car, would you say no? Of course not, the problem is only, when the car I buy you is not as capable as the car that you already have, would you use the new one? Probably not and that is exactly the issue with AMCA for IAF.

- they will have a 5th gen fighter with way better capabilities
- they will get a 5th gen UCAV, which will take over most special strike roles and which are the better replacements for the Jags as dedicated strike aircrafts
- they will have LCA, Rafale and MKI for any secondary roles below FGFA and AURA, which also are much more cost-effective as a whole


There is a gap between what the forces want and what especially DRDO is developing:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-penetrate-enemy-territory-5.html#post3860594


And that is a problem that either the defence minister, or a part of the MoD should handle, to guide the forces and the industry in the same directions and don't give them free hand to do what they want with the money of Indian tax payers.

 

[indushek]

@sudhir007

Since S-Duct found some older posts posts of mine about AMCA tup, this would be my prefered solution for our AMCA development:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...mbat-aircraft-amca-project-2.html#post2943915




That's not correct, it can be a success only if it gets into serial production and will be inducted into operational service in our forces, otherwise it would even achieve less than the Marut!
That's why it should be the main aim of ADA/DRDO/HAL to get the MK1 ready as soon as possible and not to distract themselfs with other projects. But you are right to say that LCA is not flop either, on the contrary, the main aim of the project was to set up an indigenous are industry and it achieved this goal, although only some fields were successfull so far (materials, avionics mainly) and to keep improving here we need to finish this project, learn from the mistakes and failures, or to get more out of LCAs potential, not to simply take on the next project like ADA/DRDO want to do with AMCA.



Which once again shows that GoI supports indigenous developments, not matter if they are needed or not and contrary to what many Indians believe. The problem here is only, that there is knowbody that has a clear vision on which way to go and that takes the requirements of the forces to account and let the industry develop things according to this, that's why AMCA project as it is today, is nothing but an ADA/DRDO show off, to prove that they can develop a NG fighter too.
Nobody is pushing ADA/DRDO to develop an NG fighter, they came up with the idea, but logically IAF is not saying no at this point, as long as GoI is willing to fund it.
When I say I will buy you a car, would you say no? Of course not, the problem is only, when the car I buy you is not as capable as the car that you already have, would you use the new one? Probably not and that is exactly the issue with AMCA for IAF.

- they will have a 5th gen fighter with way better capabilities
- they will get a 5th gen UCAV, which will take over most special strike roles and which are the better replacements for the Jags as dedicated strike aircrafts
- they will have LCA, Rafale and MKI for any secondary roles below FGFA and AURA, which also are much more cost-effective as a whole


There is a gap between what the forces want and what especially DRDO is developing:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-penetrate-enemy-territory-5.html#post3860594


And that is a problem that either the defence minister, or a part of the MoD should handle, to guide the forces and the industry in the same directions and don't give them free hand to do what they want with the money of Indian tax payers.

Agree with u on all points seems we have a skewed relation between users, administrators and developers. However that dangerous word 'indigenous capability' is devilishly ensnaring.

 

[sancho]

ADA is useless, bring in HAL

As I suggested once, make HAL not only to the prime contractor, but to the main developer instead of ADA/DRDO and let them assist HAL in such developments. However, we can't remain dependent for HAL alone forever, that's why I would prefer to build up NAL as a second big aero contractor, which can take over certain parts of the defence developments too (imo licence production and development any prop engined fixed wing aircraft, which includes trainers, or transporters, like Saras, Hansa, NM5, Avro replacement, a prob engined version of MTA for defence and civil purposes...).

Agree with u on all points seems we have a skewed relation between users, administrators and developers. However that dangerous word 'indigenous capability' is devilishly ensnaring.

"Indigenous" is not the dangerous word, but "ambitious"! Whenever this word comes up in any of our developments, you can except problems, but when "Indigenous" developments will be taken on in a rational way, according to our capabilities and to the requirements of the forces, they are a huge benefit for India. That's why I fully support "Indigenous" developments (although many won't believe it ), but am against "ambitious" projects for the wrong reasons, since the money and resources can be used for better things.

 

[Nitin Tomer]

unfortunately our scientist are incompetent and useless. such delays and cancellations will continue

 

[selvan33]

unfortunately our scientist are incompetent and useless. such delays and cancellations will continue

and you are the capable one of speaking about others incapability. dude they are doing their utmost posiibility without any previous experience in this field.

 

[Nitin Tomer]

and you are the capable one of speaking about others incapability. dude they are doing their utmost posiibility without any previous experience in this field.

this is wht they do at work

 

[selvan33]

this is wht they do at work

actually its waste time for me to response your quote.