Alternate History : What if Jinnah continued in Indian National Congress?

[Hamza913]

No, thanks to Jinnah and Nehru.. We had separated because of them and all are much happier.... Otherwise, we would have been killing to each otherd due to civil war

This.

Hindu-Muslim tensions in the sub-continent have always been bad. Whilst this is often blamed upon religious tradition, I find it interesting that Pakistan has traditionally been a stronghold of Islam in the region, and that many Muslims from India itself also claim ancestry from the Pashtuns, Pakistan's 2nd largest ethnic group, whilst also enjoying less than egalitarian status. On top of this, of all of India's Muslim communities, the Kashmiris are by far the most disdainful of India, and Pakistan also has many Kashmiris and they're far more related to us than to most of India. Even Sikh Punjabis (remember, Punjabis are Pakistan's largest ethnic group) waged a massive separatist movement in the 80s that resulted in an Indian PM getting assassinated and tens of thousands of deaths. Muslim Bengalis, on the other hand, ended up separating from Pakistan and enjoy more favourable relations with Hindu India.

Even if one were to go further than remove Jinnah and actually remove Islam out of the equation, I feel as if there would still be tensions (as Operation Blue Star has sufficiently demonstrated).

@Talwar e Pakistan @Indus Pakistan

Your thoughts?

 

[padamchen]

The only solution is to divide India again to give right wing Muslims of India their home land. Even though we Pakistanis are liberal Muslims, we would be happy to support them to get back at India.

I think the only solution is to revert all Muslims peacefully

This.

Hindu-Muslim tensions in the sub-continent have always been bad. Whilst this is often blamed upon religious tradition, I find it interesting that Pakistan has traditionally been a stronghold of Islam in the region, and that many Muslims from India itself also claim ancestry from the Pashtuns, Pakistan's 2nd largest ethnic group, whilst also enjoying less than egalitarian status. On top of this, of all of India's Muslim communities, the Kashmiris are by far the most disdainful of India, and Pakistan also has many Kashmiris and they're far more related to us than to most of India. Even Sikh Punjabis (remember, Punjabis are Pakistan's largest ethnic group) waged a massive separatist movement in the 80s that resulted in an Indian PM getting assassinated and tens of thousands of deaths. Muslim Bengalis, on the other hand, ended up separating from Pakistan and enjoy more favourable relations with Hindu India.

Even if one were to go further than remove Jinnah and actually remove Islam out of the equation, I feel as if there would still be tensions (as Operation Blue Star has sufficiently demonstrated).

@Talwar e Pakistan @Indus Pakistan

Your thoughts?

Racial theory.

It has its place yes

The degree depends on who is seeing it from where.

 

[Hamza913]

Racial theory.

It has its place yes

The degree depends on who is seeing it from where.

I think that religion may exacerbate it, but it's still a manifestation of said ethnic differences. The Indus basin has pretty much always had a different religious composition to the majority of the rest of the sub-continent, and there is good reason for that. We've had different influencing factors, and they've permeated our culture deeply.

 

[padamchen]

I think that religion may exacerbate it, but it's still a manifestation of said ethnic differences. The Indus basin has pretty much always had a different religious composition to the majority of the rest of the sub-continent, and there is good reason for that. We've had different influencing factors, and they've permeated our culture deeply.

It's not so different to what I and @Adonis said.

Think about it.

Pakistanis are in the pecking order "first converts" versus Indian Muslims.

And that view is very stark within the Muslim community.

It's exactly the same as Arabs look at Iranians.

And both Arabs and Iranians look at subcontinental Muslims.

It's who is the older/more "original" Muslim.

Closer if yoh will to the guys who actually did the invading, winning and ruling.

Hence the love for linking lineage and bloodlines and family names.

And names of nuclear tipped missiles as well.

 

[JafarQureshi]

I think the only solution is to revert all Muslims peacefully

Ghar Waspi has flopped. It was always just a slogan for the Sanghis to make a fool of you Hindus to garner votes. You have no other option but to give in. Forced Conversion or purging of Indian Muslims is not feasible either in this internet and social media age. Pakistan & Bangladesh have deftly handled it in the initial years after independence to keep the Hindus under 5% in our countries. India lost that chance as you started believing in your own propaganda called secularism. Remember that the demographic change is in our favor. Indian Muslims are generally the poorer ones who tend to have right wing views and higher birth rates.

 

[Andhadhun]

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...d-certain-to-be-a-bombshell-798128-1988-11-15

India Wins Freedom by Abdul Kalam Azad: Certain to be a bombshell

The much-awaited release, next week, of the unexpurgated version of Maulana Azad's India Wins Freedom is certain to be a bombshell for the ruling party because it exposes the giants of the freedom struggle, including Jawaharlal Nehru, in unfavourable light. India Today analyses the implications and reproduces extracts of the controversial manuscript.

Extracts

Nehru's Blunders


The next point which I had to decide was about the choice of my successor. I was anxious that the next president should be one who agreed with my point of view and would carry out the same policy as I had pursued. After weighing the pros and cons, I came to the conclusion that the election of Sardar Patel would not be desirable in the existing circumstances.

Taking all facts into consideration, it seemed to me that Jawaharlal should be the new president. Accordingly, on April 26,1946,1 issued a statement proposing his name for the presidentship and appealing to Congressmen that they should elect Jawaharlal unanimously.

The turn that events had taken made it almost impossible to expect a peaceful solution...between the Congress and the Muslim League (and) a large part of the responsibility for this development rests with Jawaharlal.

I acted according to my best judgement but the way things have shaped since then has made me realise that this was perhaps the greatest blunder of my political life. I have regretted no action of mine so much as the decision to withdraw from the presidentship of the Congress in this critical juncture. It was a mistake which I can describe in Gandhiji's words as one of Himalayan dimension.


My second mistake was that when I decided not to stand myself, I did not support Sardar Patel. We differed on many issues but I am convinced that if he had succeeded me as Congress President he would have seen that the Cabinet Mission Plan was successfully implemented. He would have never committed the mistake of Jawaharlal which gave Mr Jinnah the opportunity of sabotaging the plan. I can never forgive myself when I think that if I had not committed these mistakes, perhaps the history of the last ten years would have been different.

My statement caused a commotion among Congressmen all over the country. Several important leaders travelled from Calcutta, Bombay and Madras to persuade me to withdraw my statement and allow my name to be put up. Appeals in the press also appeared to the same effect. But I had already taken a decision and did not feel that I should change my view.

One factor which gave greater strength to my decision was Gandhiji's view. He agreed with me that I should not continue as president but he was not wholly pleased that I had proposed that Jawaharlal should succeed me. Perhaps he was somewhat inclined towards Sardar Patel, but once I had proposed Jawaharlal's name, he gave no public indication of his views. Some people did propose the names of Sardar Patel and Acharya Kripalani but in the end Jawaharlal was accepted unanimously.

Congress President

Jawaharlal Nehru with Mahatma Gandhi

Now happened one of those unfortunate events which change the course of history. On July 10, Jawaharlal held a press conference in Bombay in which he made an astonishing statement. Some press representatives asked him whether, with the passing of the resolution by the AICC, the Congress had accepted the plan in toto, including the composition of the interim Government?
Jawaharlal in reply stated that the Congress would enter the Constituent Assembly "completely unfettered by agreements and free to meet all situations as they arise."

Press representatives further asked if this meant that the Cabinet Mission Plan could be modified.

Jawaharlal replied emphatically that the Congress had agreed only to participate in the Constituent Assembly and regarded itself free to change or modify the Cabinet Mission Plan as it thought best.

The Muslim League had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan only under duress. Naturally Mr Jinnah was not very happy about it. In his speech to the League Council, he had clearly stated that he recommended acceptance only because nothing better could be obtained. His political adversaries started to criticise him by saying that he had failed to deliver the goods.

They accused him that he had given up the idea of an independent Islamic state. They also taunted him that if the League was willing to accept the Cabinet Mission Plan - which denied the right of the Muslims to form a separate state - why had Mr Jinnah made so much fuss about an independent Islamic state?

Gandhiji. was not wholly pleased that I had proposed that Jawaharlal should succeed me (as Congress president). Perhaps he was somewhat inclined towards Sardar Patel.

Mr Jinnah was thus not at all happy about the outcome of the negotiations with the Cabinet Mission. Jawaharlal's statement came to him as a bombshell. He immediately issued a statement that this declaration by the Congress President demanded a review of the whole situation. He accordingly asked Liaqat Ali Khan to call a meeting of the League Council and issued a statement to the following effect.

The Muslim League Council had accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan in Delhi as it was assured that the Congress also had accepted the scheme and the plan would be the basis of the future constitution of India. Now that the Congress President had declared that the Congress could change the scheme through its majority in the Constituent Assembly, this would mean that the minorities would be placed at the mercy of the majority.

His view was that Jawaharlal's declaration meant that the Congress had rejected the Cabinet Mission Plan and as such the Viceroy should call upon the Muslim League which had accepted the plan to form the government.

The Muslim League Council met at Bombay on July 27. Mr Jinnah in his opening speech reiterated the demand for Pakistan as the only course left open to the Muslim League. After three days discussion, the Council passed a resolution rejecting the Cabinet Mission Plan. It also decided to resort to direct action for the achievement of Pakistan.

I was extremely perturbed by this new development. I saw that the scheme for which I had worked so hard was being destroyed through our own action. I felt that a meeting of the Working Committee must immediately be held to review the situation. Jawaharlal was not at first willing but when I insisted, he agreed. The Working Committee accordingly met on August 8 and reviewed the whole political situation.

I pointed out that if we wanted to save the situation, we must make it clear that the statement of the Congress President at the Bombay press conference was his personal opinion and did not conform to the decision of the Congress. I explained that the view of the Congress was expressed by the resolution passed by the AICC and no individual, not even the Congress President, could change it.

Jawaharlal argued that he had no objection if the Working Committee wanted to reiterate that the Cabinet Mission Plan has been accepted by the Congress, but felt that it would be embarrassing to the organisation and also to him personally if the Working Committee passed a resolution that the statement of the Congress President did not represent the policy of the Congress.

August 16,1946, was a black day not only for Calcutta but for the whole of India. The turn that events had taken made it almost impossible to expect a peaceful solution by agreement between the Congress and the Muslim League. This was one of the greatest tragedies of Indian history and I have to say with the deepest of regret that a large part of the responsibility for this development rests with Jawaharlal.

His unfortunate statement that the Congress would be free to modify the Cabinet Mission Plan re-opened the whole question of political and communal settlement. Mr Jinnah took full advantage of his mistake and withdrew from the League's early acceptance of the Cabinet Mission Plan.

Sardar Patel with Maulana Azad

Jawaharlal is one of my dearest friends and his contribution to India's national life is second to none. I have nevertheless to say with regret that this was not the first time that he did immense harm to the national cause. He had committed an almost equal blunder in 1937 when the first elections were held under the Government of India Act 1935. In these elections, the Muslim League had suffered a great setback throughout the country except in Bombay and the UP....
Chaudhari Khaliquzzaman and Nawab Ismail Khan were then the leaders of the Muslim League in the UP. When I came to Lucknow for forming the Government, I spoke to both of them. They assured me that not only would they cooperate with the Congress, but they would fully support the Congress programme. They naturally expected that the Muslim League would have some share in the new Government.

The local position was such that neither of them could enter the Government alone. Either both would have to be taken or none. I had therefore held out hopes that both would be taken into the Government... and I left for Patna as my presence was necessary for forming the ministry in Bihar.

After some days, I returned to Allahabad and found to my great regret that Jawaharlal had written to Chaudhari Khaliquzzaman and Nawab Ismail Khan that only one of them could be taken into the ministry. He had said that the Muslim League party could decide who should be included but in the light of what I have said above, neither was in a position to come in alone. They therefore expressed their regret and said that they were unable to accept Jawaharlal's offer.

This was a most unfortunate development. If the League's offer of cooperation had been accepted, the Muslim League party would for all practical purposes merge in the Congress. Jawaharlal's action gave the Muslim League in the UP a new lease of life. All students of Indian politics know that it was from the UP that the League was re-organised. Mr Jinnah took full advantage of the situation and started an offensive which ultimately led to Pakistan.

Mountbatten Promotes Partition

A truly pathetic situation had developed as a result of our own foolish action in giving Finance to the Muslim League. Lord Mountbatten took full advantage of the situation. Because of the dissensions among the members, he slowly and gradually assumed full powers. He still kept up the form of a constitutional Governor-General but in fact he started to mediate between the Congress and the League and get his own way.

He also began to give a new turn to the political problem and tried to impress on both the Congress and the Muslim League the inevitability of Pakistan. He pleaded in favour of Pakistan and sowed the seeds of the idea in the minds of the Congress members of the Executive Council....

He wanted to be remembered in history as the man who had solved the Indian problem. If the solution was in terms of a plan formulated by him, this would bring still greater credit to him.

I think one factor responsible for the change (in Nehru's attitude to partition) was the personality of Lady Mountbatten.

Lord Mountbatten gave me the impression that he was not going to London with a clear cut picture of partition nor had he given up completely the Cabinet Mission Plan. Later events made me change my estimate of the situation. The way he acted afterwards convinced me that he had already made up his mind and was going to London to persuade the British Cabinet to accept his plan of partition. His words were only meant to allay my doubts. He did not himself believe what he was telling me.

Patel Accepts Partition

Mohammad Ali Jinnah

I was surprised that Patel was now an even greater supporter of the two nation theory than Jinnah. Jinnah may have raised the flag of partition but now the real flag bearer was Patel.
Sardar Patel was fifty per cent in favour of partition even before Lord Mountbatten appeared on the scene. He was convinced that he could not work with the Muslim League. He was prepared to have a part of India if only he could get rid of the Muslim League. It would not perhaps be unfair to say that Vallabhbhai Patel was the founder of Indian partition.

We were becoming greater supporters of partition than Jinnah. I warned Jawaharlal that. the verdict would be that India was divided not by the Muslim League but by the Congress.
I argued that our second mistake arose when Lord Wavell suggested that the Home portfolio may be given to the Muslim League. This would have not caused any insuperable difficulty but because Patel insisted on retaining Home, we had ourselves offered Finance to the Muslim League. This was the cause of our present difficulties. Now a situation had arisen where we were becoming greater supporters of partition than Jinnah. I warned Jawaharlal that history would never forgive us if we agreed to partition. The verdict would be that India was divided not by the Muslim League but by the Congress.

Krishna Menon's Dishonesty

Jawaharlal Nehru with Krishna Menon

We all like our admirers but perhaps Jawaharlal likes them a little more than others. Sometime later, in the early thirties, the Labour Party sent a delegation to India led by Miss Ellen Wilkinson. Krishna Menon was attached to the delegation and visited India. He had also been taking an interest in the activities of the India League in London. During this period, his contacts were mainly with people who were regarded as communists or fellow-travellers. When Jawaharlal went again to London, Krishna Menon renewed his contacts and reiterated his loyalty for Jawaharlal.
When war broke out, Krishna Menon suggested that he should be provided with funds so that he could carry on propaganda in London on behalf of India. When Hitler attacked Russia, he came into touch with the Soviet Embassy in London. He sent us many messages that he was meeting the Soviet Ambassador as Jawaharlal's personal representative. He sent all kinds of proposals for securing the help of interests friendly to India.

He also prepared schemes asking for funds from the Congress. Jawaharlal was impressed by him and requested me to grant some money. I did so and placed the matter before the Working Committee. Gandhiji and Sardar Patel told me frankly that they did not like my action but they would say nothing since I had paid the money in good faith. They however asked me not to make any further payment. They pointed out that Indians in London were sharply divided in their judgement about Krishna Menon.

Mountbatten decided to become his patron. Krishna Menon had communist tendencies but when he saw hat Mountbatten. might help him to get a position, he became pro-British overnight.
He had some supporters but there was a strong body of opponents who brought all kinds of charges against him. The general impression I got was that his conduct was not above approach. I could not therefore trust him fully. Later events proved that Gandhiji and Sardar were right in their suspicion of Krishna Menon. He was, to take a charitable view, unreliable and had little concern for the way public funds were spent. Most people took an even worse view and regarded him as downright dishonest.

When the interim Government was formed, Jawaharlal wanted to appoint Krishna Menon as the High Commissioner in London. Lord Wavell did not agree. The British Government also advised that his appointment would not be appropriate as he was regarded a fellow-traveller. Soon after Lord Wavell left, Krishna Menon came to India and stayed with Jawaharlal. Lord Mountbatten immediately perceived that Jawaharlal had a weakness for Krishna Menon and could be influenced by him. Lord Mountbatten decided to become his patron and invited him to the Viceroy's House on several occasions.

Menon had communist tendencies but when he saw that Lord Mountbatten was friendly and might help him to get a position, he became pro-British overnight. He impressed Lord Mountbatten with his friendly feelings for the British. Lord Mountbatten felt that Menon would be useful in persuading Jawaharlal to accept his scheme of partition of India. It is my belief that Menon did influence Jawaharlal's mind on this question. I was not surprised when sometime later I learnt that Lord Mountbatten offered to support Jawaharlal if he wanted to appoint Menon as the High Commissioner in London.

 

[Hamza913]

Pakistanis are in the pecking order "first converts" versus Indian Muslims.

And that view is very stark within the Muslim community.

I would agree, it's rather bizarre transformation considering the emphasis of no racism within the Quran itself (and the fact that as Islam expanded, it ended up absorbing much of Zarathustra's teachings which are even more fervent about racism being an abomination), and certainly not one that I support, but it's one that has occurred.

And names of nuclear tipped missiles as well.

I think ones like Ghauri, Abdali and Ghaznavi are fine due to their Pashtun linkage, but names like Babur are totally bizarre to me, and should be replaced. But as you've said, there is an idealisation of these foreign stock rulers such as Babur over native ones such as Tipu Sultan, Sikander Shah Mir, Jam Nizamuddin, etc. I'd attribute this due to the fact that people who claim descent from them still maintain a significant level of power within Pakistan, and prey upon the innate psyche of most citizens of the Indus basin which tells them that they're not like their eastern neighbour (they're not, but in a very different way to what, say, the Mughals and Syeds of society want us to think).

 

[padamchen]

Ghar Waspi has flopped. It was always just a slogan for the Sanghis to make a fool of you Hindus to garner votes. You have no other option but to give in. Forced Conversion or purging of Indian Muslims is not feasible either in this internet and social media age. Pakistan & Bangladesh have deftly handled it in the initial years after independence to keep the Hindus under 5% in our countries. India lost that chance as you started believing in your own propaganda called secularism. Remember that the demographic change is in our favor. Indian Muslims are generally the poorer ones who tend to have right wing views and higher birth rates.

Jafar bhai, we Hindus have woken up to this fact.

Future elections it will not matter if it's BJP or Congress or AAP.

Like foreign policy, Muslim management will now be carried forward seamlessly from one government to the other.

I would agree, it's rather bizarre transformation considering the emphasis of no racism within the Quran itself (and the fact that as Islam expanded, it ended up absorbing much of Zarathustra's teachings which are even more fervent about racism being an abomination), and certainly not one that I support, but it's one that has occurred.



I think ones like Ghauri, Abdali and Ghaznavi are fine due to their Pashtun linkage, but names like Babur are totally bizarre to me, and should be replaced. But as you've said, there is an idealisation of these foreign stock rulers such as Babur over native ones such as Tipu Sultan, Sikander Shah Mir, Jam Nizamuddin, etc. I'd attribute this due to the fact that people who claim descent from them still maintain a significant level of power within Pakistan, and prey upon the innate psyche of most citizens of the Indus basin which tells them that they're not like their eastern neighbour (they're not, but in a very different way to what, say, the Mughals and Syeds of society want us to think).

Delightful talking to you.

I hope I do not offend when I say that what you did to Bangladeshis (East Pakistanis at the time), the same would have been meted out to Indian Muslims, were it not for the mass of Hindus surrounding them in an independent country.

And the ironic bit is that even the most hardcore Hindu hating Indian Muslims acknowledge that.

 

[Hamza913]

we Hindus

Aren't you Parsi?

Like foreign policy, Muslim management will now be carried forward seamlessly from one government to the other.

That will only accelerate things. Muslims in India are too sizeable to be suppressed, and social media certainly hampers your ability.

There is a reason Pakistan has had to start being more accommodating to minorities in recent years: the power of social media.

 

[JafarQureshi]

Jafar bhai, we Hindus have woken up to this fact.

Future elections it will not matter if it's BJP or Congress or AAP.

Like foreign policy, Muslim management will now be carried forward seamlessly from one government to the other.

We will see. We are determined too to take revenge of 1971. Kashmir, Punjab, Assam etc.. The prospective list is long and encouraging. We are in a very good shape. Sanghis are low IQ loud mouths who may be able to garner votes of gullible Hindus but will fail in this war.

 

[Hamza913]

I hope I do not offend when I say that what you did to Bangladeshis (East Pakistanis at the time), the same would have been meted out to Indian Muslims, were it not for the mass of Hindus surrounding them in an independent country.

It wouldn't offend me at all, it's the truth. This is what happened in Hyderabad and Kashmir (but neither place was as populated as the Bengal, so the body counts weren't quite as high, and in the case of Kashmir there was intervention from the rest of the Indus basin).

 

[JafarQureshi]

Aren't you Parsi?

They are all the same.

 

[Hamza913]

They are all the same.

Not quite, they're a rather distinct community.

 

[padamchen]

Aren't you Parsi?



That will only accelerate things. Muslims in India are too sizeable to be suppressed, and social media certainly hampers your ability.

There is a reason Pakistan has had to start being more accommodating to minorities in recent years: the power of social media.

I'm pulling Jafar bhais leg. Playing along.

Coming to our Muslims, tge Hindus are doing to them what Muslim rulers did to non Muslims over centuries.

Marginalize.

Impoverish.

Tighten the screws.

Keep in place by institutional and social violence when necessary.

Eventually they will cave in and revert.

 

[Adonis]

The only solution is to divide India again to give right wing Muslims of India their home land. Even though we Pakistanis are liberal Muslims, we would be happy to support them to get back at India.

The only solution is eradicate this mindset such as yours...to look everything from the prism of religion...so that better sense, unbiased approach towards other human so that world can be more peaceful and prosperous.