Air Force Chiefs leaves for China

[ziaulislam]

1. In FY 2013, the unit cost of an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is $65.3 million(flyaway cost) or $80.7 million incl. support costs. The airframe costs $33.22 million, the two F414-GE-400 engines cost $9.64 million ($4.82 million each), and the avionics cost $9.32 million.Mar 25, 2015

i think we can afford 2 sqs of Hornets if we want ..

export price is always much higher in my opinion. we got 18 f-16s for 1.3 billion dollars without anything else in 2005-6
i think these days the ultimate cost will be much higher than 100 million / ac

 

[Hell hound]

you have no enemy to fight out side Pakistan anyway..
plus no matter what you put in Jf-17 , its almost impossible for Jf to compete with Rafale ...

Dam right sir don't know when people will understand this fact no matter what you do jf 17 cant compete with rafale tech wise but hobs and ramjet long range bvr might give jf 17 some (i repeat some) fighting chance.

 

[rockstar08]

export price is always much higher in my opinion. we got 18 f-16s for 1.3 billion dollars without anything else in 2005-6
i think these days the ultimate cost will be much higher than 100 million / ac

no it wont be more than 80 Million per a/c , 100 million + is for f-35's ...
we can afford to counter the possible threat ... we cant just stick our nose in F-16's and Jf-17 forever

Dam right sir don't know when people will understand this fact no matter what you do jf 17 cant compete with rafale tech wise but hobs and ramjet long range bvr might give jf 17 some (i repeat some) fighting chance.

Rafale is technically a beast , a heavy Multi-role strike fighter designed to dominate sky ... trust me , even our Block-2 JF -17's will be vanished even before head to head with rafale

 

[ziaulislam]

no it wont be more than 80 Million per a/c , 100 million + is for f-35's ...
we can afford to counter the possible threat ... we cant just stick our nose in F-16's and Jf-17 forever

i wish this would have been true

all recent deals of f-16s have been 100 million plus
rafale/typhoon have been around 150 million

 

[rockstar08]

i wish this would have been true

all recent deals of f-16s have been 100 million plus
rafale/typhoon have been around 150 million

where are you getting the figure ?? how can a F-16 be 100 million ?

 

[Hell hound]

no it wont be more than 80 Million per a/c , 100 million + is for f-35's ...
we can afford to counter the possible threat ... we cant just stick our nose in F-16's and Jf-17 forever



Rafale is technically a beast , a heavy Multi-role strike fighter designed to dominate sky ... trust me , even our Block-2 JF -17's will be vanished even before head to head with rafale

i am aware of the fact but don't know why people here can't grasp this reality.anyway lets hope air chief is doing some good deals in china right now fingers crossed.

 

[Syed Hussain]

export price is always much higher in my opinion. we got 18 f-16s for 1.3 billion dollars without anything else in 2005-6
i think these days the ultimate cost will be much higher than 100 million / ac

More than export unit prices, there are other things at play when it comes to buy such systems.
Pakistan made a deal for 15 Ah-1z's and 1000 hellfires missiles for a billion dollars. On forums we see a mile long list of "related equipment" but that's the already installed equipment... it's like saying that I bought a brand new car, and with it I bought an engine, a steering, 4 tyres, seats etc...
While India made deal for 22 Apache gunships and 15 Chinook heavy utility choppers for just 2.5 billions.
Now Apache in itself is heavier and more sophisticated than Ah-1z and has 25% higher cost. While Chinook costs twice as that of an Ah-1z.
But the cost difference of both deals is just too wide to somehow justify it through logic.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

It is wise if they are offering 3 engines but out of those 3 only 1 exists. I don't doubt Turkey's capabilities but making jet engines isn't as easy as it may sound even China is struggling despite the resources and expertise it has, in a thread here I have read that the reason they are interested in Su-35 is because of its engine. So relaying on Turkey for a jet engine is a bit too early.

PAF has kept that in mind, Chinese are planning to use WS-13 in J-31 and PAF plans to replace RD-93 with WS-13 as well. So if all goes according to plan not all but majority of PAF jets will have same engine.

Agreed...May be future would have some positives..

You have misunderstood me. The question is not one of money but of wise spending of it. PAF is risk averse so will not indulge in a project which is resource intense with an unlikely outcome. In a nutshell it would rather spend 2-3 billion and get a ready platform than indulge in research(especially if we dont have much to contribute to it ) on one which has an uncertain outcome both from the platform point of view and financial outlay. No one is getting j20.J31/some other platform has been on the cards and most probably will be inducted post 2020. Given that J31 has flown already PAF will likely go for it rahter than design another platform with its own latency factored in hence my prediction of 2023-25 for induction of J31. The other thing you need to consider is what the state of scientific knowledge is going to be like in a decade. This will also be a factor in the decision making
On the engine issue, I have stated that PAF will not go for an EU engine for the very reason it wont go for a US engine. So the alternates are Chinese or Russian. PAF may choose one or the other. To me it seems that we would have been dealing with the Russians for 4-5 yrs by the time the Chinese come out with an appropriate engine and the likely scenario is PAF will pitch one against the other to get the best possible deal. However there are imponderables here which we have to take into account when making a prediction for the future. For instance, what happens if the Chinese dont come up with an engine that is trust worthy.
The single vs dual engine debate will carry on and we have to see but considering the problems which the F35 is encountering, we may bite the bullet and go for a twin engined platform.
A debate on the prospect of Pakistani economy improving is useless at this point in time as it is all conjecture with no solid backing. I have had this debate with many in 2007 when I said Pakistan has serious economic issues underlying and all this hoohaa about progress and economic boom is hogwash and I was booed all the way . Guess what happened post 2008. So lets talk about it once we have achieved it.
Fifth v/s 6th generation debate is one that I have an inkling will become more of a reality in a couple of years as the economic pressure bite in. the cost of running a fleet of fifth generation fighters and the human cost of their loss will slowly guide people towards it. It may be for another forum but the possibilities/permutations thereof are many and diverse and yet related so needed to be mentioned here.
I hope I have clarified my position.
Araz

I understand what you are getting to... Still one can only hope for the best... We know previously many decisions where taken that came out of the blue...Some good and some not so good...

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

China Nahi Hua, Biwi Ka Maeka Ho Gaya.

Meaka walon ko Damad ka khyal tou zyada rakhna ho ga...

 

[appliedfor]

Air Force Chief has left for China where he would meet senior Military and Political leadership of China. Main goal of this visit is to make further improvements in JF-17.
@Horus @fatman17 @Manticore @Oscar @Slav Defence @nair @SpArK

---My first Reply on this Forum---


Please sign the deal for J-31 to get some in coming years..

 

[ziaulislam]

where are you getting the figure ?? how can a F-16 be 100 million ?

Pakistan paid approx 80 million back in 2005 1.3 billion for 18.

the cost varies on type of options excersied in the aircraft but 100 million should be assumed for the aircraft plus essential spares

new deals recently have been atleast 100 million including training /equipment it will cost 150 million for any new procurement like f-18. the very reason why we choose f-16s.

remember f-35 was design to cost the same as fourth gen aircraft but it cost has already past 150 million a piece

Sticker Shock: Iraqi F-16s $165 Million Each | TIME.com

 

[araz]

Hi,

The serious economic issues came out of the democracy movement and then Zardari govt-----.

Mastan Khan
I had a very long. chat with an economist who had been a Vp world bank and taken retirement at 45 becuase he did not neex the money anymore. He knew short cut Aziz personally. Any ways he was sayi g that the only reason things are looking good in 2007 was because of the deferred payments on all the borrowings and the money from 5he sell offs. If you look at the actual industrial growth there was very little or none. The ectricity crisis was not of Zardaris doing much as I hate that man. There were visible gaps in the production of electricitywhich was being made wlrse by the fact that the PSO was made to sell oil to these oil based units without payments for 90 days at a time. When they reneged on payment PSO stopped supplying them oil and the rest we know. Zardari was corrupt and incompetant to the core and made a bad situation worse but the ròots of it all lie in the lack of a tandgible direction for things. I had a debate at the time and all and sundry poopooed me.All you can say is AZ was the worst but Musharraf wasn't any better.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Mastan Khan
I had a very long. chat with an economist who had been a Vp world bank and taken retirement at 45 becuase he did not neex the money anymore. He knew short cut Aziz personally. Any ways he was sayi g that the only reason things are looking good in 2007 was because of the deferred payments on all the borrowings and the money from 5he sell offs. If you look at the actual industrial growth there was very little or none. The ectricity crisis was not of Zardaris doing much as I hate that man. There were visible gaps in the production of electricitywhich was being made wlrse by the fact that the PSO was made to sell oil to these oil based units without payments for 90 days at a time. When they reneged on payment PSO stopped supplying them oil and the rest we know. Zardari was corrupt and incompetant to the core and made a bad situation worse but the ròots of it all lie in the lack of a tandgible direction for things. I had a debate at the time and all and sundry poopooed me.All you can say is AZ was the worst but Musharraf wasn't any better.
Araz

Does this also take into account the disaster fund that was being funded though international sources after the earth quake. That also in effect tickled the economy. There was corruption as well in the time short cut Aziz but that was done through channels which were not common hence People of Pakistan were unaware. During the time of Zardari it was totally different no one wanted to bring in money.

 

[New World]

Sorry to distrub you but a question has rise in my mind is that when PAF has counter the IAF procurement be it m2k, Jaguar, Su-30.. and rafale is on the way ..

and here everyone is talking about how to counter future Indian Procurement..
Please just counter MKI it will be enough

 

[Kompromat]

These talks seem to be of a strategic nature.