Ahmad Shah Durrani's place in Pakistan's history

[Truth Finder]

How exactly they avenged Panipat in a decade?

1)The reference for this following letters as given by Sardesai in Riyasat - Peshwe Daftar letters 2.103, 146; 21.206; 1.202, 207, 210, 213; 29, 42, 54, and 39.161.
Satara Daftar - document number 2.301, Shejwalkar's Panipat, page no. 99.
Moropanta's account - 1.1, 6, 7
.

Abdali's letter to Peshwa on 10th February 1761. Marathi version of that letter present in Satara daftar 2.301

तुमचे आमचे वैर असण्याचे काही कारण नाही. तुमचे पुत्र विश्वासराव व बंधू सदाशिवराव युद्धात मारले गेले त्यास आमचा नाईलाज होता. भाऊसाहेब युद्धास उभे राहिले तेव्हा आम्हास हि युद्धास उभे राहणे भाग पडले. तथापि, त्यांच्या मृत्यूचा आम्हाला खेद आहे. दिल्लीचा कारभार आपण पूर्ववत चालवावा त्यास आमची काहीही हरकत नाही. मात्र सतलज पावेतोचा मुलुख आमच्याकडे असो द्यावा. शाहआलम यास दिल्लीचे तख्तावर ठेऊन झालेल्या गोष्टी विसरून पुढे आपला स्नेह कायमचा राहावा अशी आमची मनापासून इच्छा आहे ती आपण पूर्ण करावी.

"There is no reason to have animosity amongst us. You son Vishwasrao and your brother sadadhivrao died in battle, was unfortunate. Bhau started the battle, so I had to fight back unwillingly. Yet I feel sorry for his death. Please continue your guardianship of Delhi as before, to that I have no opposition. Only let Punjab until Sutlaj remain with us. Reinstate Shah alam on delhi's throne as you did before and let there be peace and friendship between us, this is my ardent desire. Grant me that desire."

2)Beta, do you know what happened to the Afghans that came and settled in UP, Punjab, KPK and Kashmir? They were all "castrated". Thus , Panipat was " avenged".( This phrase was first used by Savarkar in 1920s).

 

[Gazprom]

My two bits. British empire saved Islam from destruction in the Indian peninsuala and the territories of Pakistan and Afghanistan. IF it was not for British empire,either Sikhs or the Tsarist Russian empire would have conquered Pakistan,Afghanistan and India.

It was the existence of British empire and its interests in Central Asia that Russian empire had to be lenient to Islam in Central Asia.

 

[Samandri]

As long at the Muslim majority status of Pakistan survives during Maratha rule then I do think that Pakistan would still have emerged. I find it unlikley that the Marathas would be able to change the demographics of Punjab/Sindh where the Sikhs who were based in this region failed (KPK and Balochistan as I explained in my previous post are out of the question due to the geography of the regions plus the fact that Muslims had an overwhelming majority there).

The basis for the Pakistan demand lay in the fall of the Muslim community's socio-economic stature post 1857. Deliberate policies of the British (change from Persian to Hindi for example) resulted in the Muslim community becoming disadvantaged and gradually seeing its fortunes fall whereas Sikhs and especially Hindus were doing far better. The seeds of Pakistan's creation thus emerge from British policies.

Even the short Sikh rule had adverse effects on Muslims of Punjab. I was reading in a book , History of Punjab by Lateef, that diet of Punjabi musalman became mostly vegetarian due to Sikh rule. Only rights of Hindus were taken care of, while there was a degree of religious hostility towards Muslims , Mullahs were particularly targeted. Maratha rule would have changed the culture and ways of life of Indian muslims, making them more baray-e-naam, there waseven possibility of emergence of Shudi and sangthan movements very early on if Marthas had made it.

It was the existence of British empire and its interests in Central Asia that Russian empire had to be lenient to Islam in Central Asia.

British didnt intervene in internal affairs of Russia and kept quiet about Russian policies towards their central asian subjects. They didnt have to. Though they didnt want Russia to conquer Afghanistan, they also prevented any Russian influence in Afghanistan, thats why the great game.

 

[Gazprom]

Even the short Sikh rule had adverse effects on Muslims of Punjab. I was reading in a book , History of Punjab by Lateef, that diet of Punjabi musalman became mostly vegetarian due to Sikh rule. Only rights of Hindus were taken care of, while there was a degree of religious hostility towards Muslims , Mullahs were particularly targeted. Maratha rule would have changed the culture and ways of life of Indian muslims, making them more baray-e-naam, there waseven possibility of emergence of Shudi and sangthan movements very early on if Marthas had made it.


British didnt intervene in internal affairs of Russia and kept quiet about Russian policies towards their central asian subjects. They didnt have to. Though they didnt want Russia to conquer Afghanistan, they also prevented any Russian influence in Afghanistan, thats why the great game.

Read what the russians had to say about british activities in central asia and Caucusus in tsarist journals.You will find it very interesting.

 

[Samandri]

.....................................

Terror and psychological impact of Afghans and Rohillas on Marathas

Ahmad Shah Abdali by Ganda Singh page 236

 

[ravi kiran]

Nonsense, they were going to war not picnic or pilgrimage. Non-combatants were in addition to 300,000 combatants thats why locals of Panipat had such exaggerations that Marthas were in million. Just look at the number of commanders , that Marathas had thrown into the panipat battle.....almost all of them. Wikipedia even claims that only 45 thousands Maratha fighters participated even though their fighting strengths numbered in Lakhs. In some small campaigns, marthas had dispatched forces numbering more than lakh.

They didnt come in rush, they came with huge preparation and were so confident of their huge numerical superiority that their officers came along with their wives and pilgrimage and due to their over-confidence they didnt feel the urge to make alliance with Sikhs or Rajputs or any one.

No offence but you are wrong. I know my history very well. I grew up listening stories of panipat from our elders. I have read and studied a lot about panipat as it is biggest tragedy in our history. My own ancestors have fought in battle of panipat.
We still feel pain of that defeat.

 

[Samandri]

No offence but you are wrong. I know my history very well. I grew up listening stories of panipat from our elders. I have read and studied a lot about panipat as it is biggest tragedy in our history. My own ancestors have fought in battle of panipat.
We still feel pain of that defeat.

Why you and your elders still feel pain if it was a defeat in a battle with only 45,000 Maratha fighters participating?..... for an empire of such size and power, it was an insignificant defeat if Maratha accounts are to be believed regarding numbers and casualties

 

[Gazprom]

No offence but you are wrong. I know my history very well. I grew up listening stories of panipat from our elders. I have read and studied a lot about panipat as it is biggest tragedy in our history. My own ancestors have fought in battle of panipat.
We still feel pain of that defeat.

Why? Look at the plight of Afghans and Pakistanis .Laughable. Today we are a major power . Look at how Islam is front of American-Jewish alliance,Russians,Chinese even India. Almost like a vanquished power trying to live on past glory. The advent of nuclear,biological and chemical and the capabilities of ICBM,Aviation,Space travel changed everything .Look at where Islam stands. Islam was a superpower 500 years ago. Today ,it is vanquished,defeated and balkanized.

 

[Truth Finder]

.....................................

Terror and psychological impact of Afghans and Rohillas on Marathas

Ahmad Shah Abdali by Ganda Singh page 236

Lol!!! what is this toilet paper??? Who is Ganda Singh- a two cent pamphleteer? Where are his source and authenticity? I produced the real latter, not some fancy prose.

 

[ghoul]

They extracted revenue from Punjab and reached as far as trans-chenab area and according to them, as far as Attock. So they were fully capable of subjugating Punjab with ease.


Madyha pradesh was center and power house of Holkars and Schindias , Rajasthan was totally helpless against Marathas and had to pay chaut. In fact Rajputs had sympathies with Abdali. Bharatpur was a small state and its greatest ruler Suraj mal was killed and defeated by a chieftain Najib Khan Rohilla. Also Bharatpur was ally of Marathas not enemy, in 1767 Jats of bharatput formed an alliance with Marathas along with Awadh against possible Abdali's invasion.

Nah, Attock was an exaggeration. They never collected taxes from there, and the area was still Gakhar ruled back then with other powerful and "fierce" tribes like Khattars also being practically independent. Adina Beg got a lot of soldiers/warriors from the northern tribes, like the Ghebas(who still go strong today btw, with Malik Atta Muhammad as their feudal leader).

Rajasthan wasn't helpless either. They had withstood Aurangzeb, what makes you think Marhattas subjugated them? Lol. Rajput states would have joined the Brits in case of a full fledged Marhatta invasion.

Sikh misls were indeed capable of harassing foreign armies on their soil, but they didnt defeat Afghans before Ranjeet Singh nor they were capable of taking on Maratha empire. If you read the history of all Sikh misls, their few successes were against small Afghan army units , they were mobile cavalry and used to run away towards hills of todays east punjab on approach of large Afghan army. I doubt Sikhs would have resisted Marathas, they would have joined latter against Afghans.

That's doubtful. And Sikhs were highly capable even before Ranjit. Zamzama cannon was snatched from Shah Zaman(I think) by the Bhangi Misl, which had chased his army. Zaman crossed the river Jhelum without even putting up a fight. Ranjit's grandfather, Charat Singh even kidnapped Abdali's mamu-cum-general and only returned him for a ransom. The Sukarchakia misl defeated the pro-Afghan Chattha jatts despite Abdali's assurances to the latter. Even under Abdali, Lahore was lost at least once. And I would say the Sikh guerilla tactics were smart, for they didn't have a proper state. As soon as they got a state, they successfully defeated Afghans at multiple occasions. And there's no such thing as "my Sikhs". I have no love for Ranjit Singh, let's just say.

Kashmir shawl industry, started by Mughals, made a remarkable progress during Afghan reign. Taxes were relaxed and the governors themselves patronized every industry including Shawl. Due to this patronage, Kashmiri shawl started getting exported to Persia, Turkistan, Russia, Turkey and europe. Afghan rule enabled immense economic growth of Kashmir and increased the urban growth of the valley. The stories of Rapes and all that, are products of Hindu nationalistic propaganda aggravated by Kashmir insurgency. Hindus were on important posts and were even ministers. Jizia was imposed on them and occasional harshness against them was result of jealosy of kashmiri muslims who used to urge Afghans to exclude Hindus from offices.
Your Sikhs destroyed Kashmir's shawl industry by imposing heavy Taxes, every industry got destroyed. Sikhs were very cruel to muslim majority of Kashmir. They imposed ban on Azaan and cow slaughter and hanged people on daily basis, turning it into a death valley....Just because kashmiris didnt fight like Pashtuns against Sikhs, it doesnt mean they were happy in oppressive anti-muslim Sikh rule.

Multiple European sources mention the tyrannical rule of Afghans in the Kashmir valley. I can't cite them now. They also unanimously mentioned that Sikh rule was better. Abdali's heavy taxation is also well documented. This one 19 year old Afghan governor was famous for shooting random people just for the heck of it. The ban of azzaan and cow was made by the dogra rajput rulers of kashmir, who were hindu. Sikhs were as a policy secular. As for the Hindu ministers, well they were only in Kabul and were mostly Punjabi Khatris for the local Afghans weren't civilized enough to industrialize their country.

 

[Truth Finder]

The ban of azzaan and cow was made by the dogra rajput rulers of kashmir

No. It was started by Sikhs and continued by Dogras for some time to stop the call for "Jihad" in Masjids. When the calls stopped and Afghans were driven out totally, the ban on Azzaan was fully lifted.

 

[Samandri]

Nah, Attock was an exaggeration. They never collected taxes from there, and the area was still Gakhar ruled back then with other powerful and "fierce" tribes like Khattars also being practically independent. Adina Beg got a lot of soldiers/warriors from the northern tribes, like the Ghebas(who still go strong today btw, with Malik Atta Muhammad as their feudal leader).

Rajasthan wasn't helpless either. They had withstood Aurangzeb, what makes you think Marhattas subjugated them? Lol. Rajput states would have joined the Brits in case of a full fledged Marhatta invasion.



That's doubtful. And Sikhs were highly capable even before Ranjit. Zamzama cannon was snatched from Shah Zaman(I think) by the Bhangi Misl, which had chased his army. Zaman crossed the river Jhelum without even putting up a fight. Ranjit's grandfather, Charat Singh even kidnapped Abdali's mamu-cum-general and only returned him for a ransom. The Sukarchakia misl defeated the pro-Afghan Chattha jatts despite Abdali's assurances to the latter. Even under Abdali, Lahore was lost at least once. And I would say the Sikh guerilla tactics were smart, for they didn't have a proper state. As soon as they got a state, they successfully defeated Afghans at multiple occasions. And there's no such thing as "my Sikhs". I have no love for Ranjit Singh, let's just say.



Multiple European sources mention the tyrannical rule of Afghans in the Kashmir valley. I can't cite them now. They also unanimously mentioned that Sikh rule was better. Abdali's heavy taxation is also well documented. This one 19 year old Afghan governor was famous for shooting random people just for the heck of it. The ban of azzaan and cow was made by the dogra rajput rulers of kashmir, who were hindu. Sikhs were as a policy secular. As for the Hindu ministers, well they were only in Kabul and were mostly Punjabi Khatris for the local Afghans weren't civilized enough to industrialize their country.

If you read "History of Punjab" by S.M.Lateef (Who is more biased in favour of Sikhs while little negative about Afghans in his narration), there is details about battles of all Sikh misals. I would post it at some another time but you will notice that Sikh misals have lost most of the battles against Afghans in Punjab and their success rate increases with approach of Shah Zaman period. In fact during time of Ascension of Shah Zaman, Afghans had already lost Punjab to Sikhs and his military expeditions in Punjab, though successful, were not fruitful and they couldnt recover it. Zamzama was not lost to Bhangi misl in any battle, Ranjeet Singh cooperated with him. Afghans had occupied Lahore in 1798 and installed ruler of Kasur as governor but Sikhs occupied it again when Afghans left Punjab. That was the reason for failure of Afghan rule of Punjab, their forces were spread out and thin across a large empire and had to fight with external enemy like Persia, with internal rebellions like in Khorasan and Kashmir, with deadly insurgency in Punjab and civil war among Afghans. Powerful Pashtun tribes were independent and were neither paying taxes nor they were providing troops. Sikhs proved to be too persistent foes, had advantage of being natives and had support of local population. The only support Afghans got in Punjab, were from their own ethnic kinsmen long settled in Punjab like those of Kasur , Maler Kotla, Sirhind and Multan. When Sikhs arrived in Pashtun belt, they faced similarly persistent resistance that they had once carried out against Afghans in Punjab.

 

[pursuit of happiness]

As long at the Muslim majority status of Pakistan survives during Maratha rule then I do think that Pakistan would still have emerged. I find it unlikley that the Marathas would be able to change the demographics of Punjab/Sindh where the Sikhs who were based in this region failed (KPK and Balochistan as I explained in my previous post are out of the question due to the geography of the regions plus the fact that Muslims had an overwhelming majority there).

The basis for the Pakistan demand lay in the fall of the Muslim community's socio-economic stature post 1857. Deliberate policies of the British (change from Persian to Hindi for example) resulted in the Muslim community becoming disadvantaged and gradually seeing its fortunes fall whereas Sikhs and especially Hindus were doing far better. The seeds of Pakistan's creation thus emerge from British policies.

--
you realy learn this ?

As long at the Muslim majority status of Pakistan survives during Maratha rule then I do think that Pakistan would still have emerged. I find it unlikley that the Marathas would be able to change the demographics of Punjab/Sindh where the Sikhs who were based in this region failed (KPK and Balochistan as I explained in my previous post are out of the question due to the geography of the regions plus the fact that Muslims had an overwhelming majority there).

The basis for the Pakistan demand lay in the fall of the Muslim community's socio-economic stature post 1857. Deliberate policies of the British (change from Persian to Hindi for example) resulted in the Muslim community becoming disadvantaged and gradually seeing its fortunes fall whereas Sikhs and especially Hindus were doing far better. The seeds of Pakistan's creation thus emerge from British policies.

--
mulsim was front runers with hindiu soldires for 1857..
british came very heavely on muslim due to same reason .

 

[ravi kiran]

Why you and your elders still feel pain if it was a defeat in a battle with only 45,000 Maratha fighters participating?..... for an empire of such size and power, it was an insignificant defeat if Maratha accounts are to be believed regarding numbers and casualties

Why? Look at the plight of Afghans and Pakistanis .Laughable. Today we are a major power . Look at how Islam is front of American-Jewish alliance,Russians,Chinese even India. Almost like a vanquished power trying to live on past glory. The advent of nuclear,biological and chemical and the capabilities of ICBM,Aviation,Space travel changed everything .Look at where Islam stands. Islam was a superpower 500 years ago. Today ,it is vanquished,defeated and balkanized.

Panipat inculcated a kind of diffidence in the Maratha psyche that brought in defeatist mentality when it came to a really great contest. The tendency now on was to retreat in good time rather than risk everything on an uncertain prospect. This caution that can be seen in many later day battles can be directly traced back to the happenings at Panipat. Panipat was a major trauma for us and never again were the Marathas to repeat the daring feat of Bajirao the first and his dash to Delhi. Most post Panipat wars fought by the Marathas were defensive wars.

sadest news in out history
“Two pearls (Sadashiv Rao and Vishwas Rao) have been dissolved, twenty seven gold mohurs (Janokoji Rao and other commanders) have been lost, and of the silver and copper (soldiers and camp followers) the total cannot be cast up”

Panipat was not merely a ‘lost battle’. There was much more to it. It is a major turning point in the history of the Marathas and Maharashtra.
Entire Maharashtra came together to fight. Brave soldiers from all castes and communities left their homes for this battle. The invading enemy Ahmed Shah Abdali had crossed about five or six kingdoms till then. Nobody had dared stop him. But the Marathas went all the way to Panipat to stop him. The Marathas were courageous, brave and die-hard warriors
.The offensive spirit of the Marathas was the biggest casualty at Panipat.There is saying in Marathi "amacha vishwas panipatat gela(we lost our confidence at Panipat)"

 

[Truth Finder]

Panipat inculcated a kind of diffidence in the Maratha psyche that brought in defeatist mentality when it came to a really great contest.

Emotional fool! The History says otherwise. Marathas became defeatist post 1920s and with the advent of Gandhi. They lost the political power first and then economic power gradually to non-marathas. As a result, Siva Sena came about. Siva Sena is the manifestation of extreme inferiority complex and their hooliganism too.