Ahmad Shah Durrani's place in Pakistan's history

[KingMamba]

This is a topic that has been on my mind. It is more of a what if than anything else. Everyone knows who Ahmad Shah Durrani was so I will skip the introduction, the question is namely had Ahmad Shah Durrani not won the third battle of Panipat would Pakistan have been created? My own opinion is namely that by destroying Maratha forces non-Muslim namely Hindu influence was forever checked which allowed Muslims enough breathing space which plays a huge part in the later creation of Pakistan. It should be noted that Baji Rao the first had envisioned the destruction of all Muslim ruled territories followed by Maratha sovereignty over the Hindu kingdoms in a pan Hindu empire. So Hindu leadership of the Marathas definitively had such an idea in the back of their minds which they would have accomplished had they won over Ahmad Shah at Panipat. I am aware that the Marathas did eventually recover and retake much of North India but they were never really the same following that defeat, having lost many thousands of their battle hardened men along with a huge amount of leaders in the battle. Therefore without Ahmad Shah there would be no Pakistan and he deserves a much greater place in Pakistani history. In fact I would go as far as to say if Quaid e Azam is the father of the nation (undoubtedly) then Ahmad Shah is the Grandfather lol. Agree, disagree? Different view on his place?

@Samandri- I know you brought up his pan Islamic views in another thread once.

@Horus @farhan_9909 @ghilzai @LoveIcon @qamar1990 @Hiptullha @Zarvan @TankMan @Armstrong @ArsalanKhan21 @save_ghenda

 

[Sine Nomine]

No doubt battle of pani pat changed history of India,Marthas were keen to built first hindu empire on ruins of Mughal Empire but failed,but after 1857 hindus did got a strong position vs Muslims by quickly showing utmost devotion to Raj,those who struggled for Pakistan are no doubt are our true heroes and father of nation but Durrani can be credited for destroying power of Marathas thus ending suffering of Muslims and creating power balance....

 

[Bornubus]

Marathas were bound to failed as they never supported by regional powers Sikhs,Jats and Rajputs also their war fighting techniques had been changed ---- Guerrilla warfare and Light Cavalry

 

[Samandri]

Well if you have any source that Punjabis were over joyed by Ahmed Shahs arrival please to share with us.That might kick start this discussion.

I never talked about Muslim Punjabis being of foriegn descents because that will be an oxymoronic statement
I was expressing my opnion on what most Punjabis went through regardless of their religion.

Secondly, I think where you are born decide what you are.......

cloud_9 Waris shah was not the only sufi from Punjab, Pir Sabir Shah from Lahore was a Sufi saint , a faqeer like person who supported Abdali. He got martyred by Shah Nawaz Khan for speaking in support of Abdali. Ahmad Shah Abdali and Pir Sabir Shah | History of Pashtuns

 

[Kabira]

cloud_9 Waris shah was not the only sufi from Punjab, Pir Sabir Shah from Lahore was a Sufi saint , a faqeer like person who supported Abdali. He got martyred by Shah Nawaz Khan for speaking in support of Abdali. Ahmad Shah Abdali and Pir Sabir Shah | History of Pashtuns

Anyway there was never any ''punjabi muslim nation'' in ethnical sense. A part from common language/dialects. So nothing surprising some people may have supported him. I think Indians don't realize ground realities of real old punjab.

Marathas were bound to failed as they never supported by regional powers Sikhs,Jats and Rajputs also their war fighting techniques had been changed ---- Guerrilla warfare and Light Cavalry

Why do you expect sikhs to support marathas, when maratha ally Adina Beg persecuted sikhs and they had to hide in jungles?

 

[Bornubus]

Anyway there was never any ''punjabi muslim nation'' in ethnical sense. A part from common language/dialects. So nothing surprising some people may have supported him. I think Indians don't realize ground realities of real old punjab.



Why do you expect sikhs to support marathas, when maratha ally Adina Beg persecuted sikhs and they had to hide in jungles?

I never expected any regional power to support Marathas ---- Even Rajput never considered them as their ally but as Raiders

 

[KingMamba]

cloud_9 Waris shah was not the only sufi from Punjab, Pir Sabir Shah from Lahore was a Sufi saint , a faqeer like person who supported Abdali. He got martyred by Shah Nawaz Khan for speaking in support of Abdali. Ahmad Shah Abdali and Pir Sabir Shah | History of Pashtuns

Also if you read Waris Shah's letter he told him to fight for Islam and riches will follow but if he targets local Muslims he will fail. Ahmad Shah was extremely religious man, his support for Chinese Muslims and near war with Chinese is well known.

 

[Kabira]

I never expected any regional power to support Marathas ---- Even Rajput never considered them as their ally but as Raiders

But marathas did persecute sikhs indirectly, i wonder why this part is ignored.

Mughal Adina Beg invite marathas to expell Afghans in return of money. Adina with local tribes, sikhs and maratha help expell Afghans out of Punjab. Maratha made Adina beg governor of Punjab in return of 75 lack per year taxes and they go back to India.

Adina needed peace and prosperity to collect 75 lakh. But sikhs didn't stop their looting ways they were so used to by that time. So Adina decide to persecute Sikhs, marathas turned blind eye because of money. This all happened in periord of 2 years before Adina died.

 

[Kambojaric]

The power base of the Marathas was in C. India (Pune). Sure they could have invaded Pakistan and maintained a presence there through garrisons (just like the Mughals did in South India whilst based in N India) but could they really have had a tight grip on the native populace? I personally dont think so. In the pre-railway era horses were the prime medium of transport and there were logistical limits present for all armies marching out of their capital cities (for example Vienna in the case of the Ottomans who tried twice to capture Vienna via armies which came out of Istanbul but failed both times). The likelihood is thus that the Indus region would have evaded any kind of strongly centralized Maratha rule and would have remained a remote border region, even if the Marathas had won at Panipat.

With regards to the creation of Pakistan, you have to remember that despite the failure of the Marathas, Pakistan did fall to Non Muslim rule prior to the emergence of the British in the shape of the Sikh Empire. Despite this however the majority of the Muslims could not be broken and Non Muslims remained a minority. Hence I wouldnt read too much into Abdalis victory in relation to the creation of Pakistan although on an individual level his victory at Panipat was of course hugely significant.

 

[KingMamba]

But marathas did persecute sikhs indirectly, i wonder why this part is ignored.

Mughal Adina Beg invite marathas to expell Afghans in return of money. Adina with local tribes, sikhs and maratha help expell Afghans out of Punjab. Maratha make Adina beg governor of Punjab in return of 75 lack per year taxes and they go back to India.

Adina needed peace and prosperity to collect 75 lakh. But sikhs didn't stop their looting ways they were so used to by that time. So Adina decide to persecute Sikhs, marathas turned blind eye because of money. This all happened in periord of 2 years before Adina died.

Marathas mostly cared about taxes and raiding but they also wanted to establish "hindu padshahi". Which is why they overthrew many Muslim kingdoms but only extracted tribute from Hindu kingdoms. By this point Mughals already became pawns of Marathas who kept them around because of their name prestige.

 

[Samandri]

Ahmad Shah Durrani against Qing China

 

[KingMamba]

The power base of the Marathas was in C. India (Pune). Sure they could have invaded Pakistan and maintained a presence there through garrisons (just like the Mughals did in South India whilst based in N India) but could they really have had a tight grip on the native populace? I personally dont think so. In the pre-railway era horses were the prime medium of transport and there were logistical limits present for all armies marching out of their capital cities (for example Vienna in the case of the Ottomans who tried twice to capture Vienna via armies which came out of Istanbul but failed both times). The likelihood is thus that the Indus region would have evaded any kind of strongly centralized Maratha rule and would have remained a remote border region, even if the Marathas had won at Panipat.

With regards to the creation of Pakistan, you have to remember that despite the failure of the Marathas, Pakistan did fall to Non Muslim rule prior to the emergence of the British in the shape of the Sikh Empire. Despite this however the majority of the Muslims could not be broken and Non Muslims remained a minority. Hence I wouldnt read too much into Abdalis victory in relation to the creation of Pakistan although on an individual level his victory at Panipat was of course hugely significant.

I disagree Sikhs were actually a secular state under Ranjeet which is why Punjabi Muslims supported them. Also Shah Zaman plundered Punjabi Muslims which led to loss of support to Afghans. Overall though Ranjit Singh was smart and used the opportunity to gather support across religious lines. Marathas on the other hand were Early Hindutvas which is something modern day hindutvas openly state. As for British they promoted Christianity amongst lower castes but also allowed open competition hence Arya Samaj and other groups also operated along with Muslim groups. It was actually due to British policy that Muslims in the region had a net increase by the 1941 census. In fact ironically all of Ranjeet Singhs own tribe the Sansis converted to Islam during this period. Ultinately though Brits would not have gained a foothold had Marathas won so none of this would have occurred had Marathas won at Panipat which is something many historians agree on as ultimately Marathas were the only force that could challenge them. In fact Wellington the general who would end up defeating Napoleon rated Maratha armies above France's (he also ended the Marathas and Tipu). So if Marathas won at Panipat they would extend their domain to Kandahar and be in a good enough position to crush the only opposition left, the British in Bengal.

 

[Samandri]

I never expected any regional power to support Marathas ---- Even Rajput never considered them as their ally but as Raiders

The excerpt is from Ganda Singh's book "Ahmad Shah Durrani", page-378

After his settlement with Jawahir Singh Jat, Raghunath Rao, it seems, had planned to pounce upon the Rajas of Jodhpur and Jaipur. He captured Bhilsa and marched to Kota.The Shah in the meantime seems to have heard about the impending coalition of the Marathas with Nawab Wazir of Oudh and the English, and of the intentions of Raghunath Rao against his faithful and devoted Rajput Rajas. He wrote from the Panjab a stern note of warning to Raghunath "threatening him with war and rapine, 'should he act contrary to the dictates" of the victor of Panipat. This unnerved the Maratha warrior and he quietly disappeared from the scene and moved away to Indore, leaving all his plans against the Rajputs and the Shah unexecuted. All efforts of Shuia-ud-Daulah and the English failed to keep him by their side and all their assurances of armed assistance fell flat upon him.

As you can see Abdali prevented a Maratha invasion of Jodhour and Jaipur just by issuing a warning , Rajput Rajas were on Abdali side for obvious reasons.

 

[Bornubus]

But marathas did persecute sikhs indirectly, i wonder why this part is ignored.

Mughal Adina Beg invite marathas to expell Afghans in return of money. Adina with local tribes, sikhs and maratha help expell Afghans out of Punjab. Maratha make Adina beg governor of Punjab in return of 75 lack per year taxes and they go back to India.

Adina needed peace and prosperity to collect 75 lakh. But sikhs didn't stop their looting ways they were so used to by that time. So Adina decide to persecute Sikhs, marathas turned blind eye because of money. This all happened in periord of 2 years before Adina died.

Adina Beg i Don't know much about him and i am not sure he was Even Mughal as you said

 

[Kabira]

Adina Beg i Don't know much about him and i am not sure he was Even Mughal as you said

Yes he was Mughal governor but native of punjab.