@kalu_miah i think u r mistaken if u think pro-indian/russian comunist and awami maggots can be bought into the chinese shere. BAL's indian dalali has more factors than just money involved. Communist (the pro-indian ones) for eg. are anti-muslim/Islam and they don't agree with 47 TNT ideology. As a result by nature they support anything that favours India and also BD communist tend to be pro-paganistic. BY their very nature and political ideology moscow communist are anti-religious. As for BAL, its a party brainless of dacoit thugs. Formed by direct Indian backing (i think u will agree) not to mention Hasina is eternally grateful to India and indira for giving her sheltre in India. Her son grew up in India. SHe owes to India her entire political carrier and present premiership of BD. Not to mention in case of any uprising , for BAL/communist next door India is the easiest and safest escape route from BD. They can't jump border to china. Don't forget most awami mafias and cappati chatra league thugs find safe heavens in India when BAL's not in power. India also knows more abt their henious deeds over the years than china and its easy for them to politically destroy BAL if they even think of something like switching masters. The only solution is completely uproot these indian planted parasites from BD's soil & deal with them just like how west and germany dealt with nazis.
Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history
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kalu_miah
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Yes, that is the feeling I get from most people I talk to and it matches with your perception. But there are many opportunists among these groups and it is better to divide them and turn some of them to your side, rather then have them all united in one bloc, which will make it easier to defeat them. It is more of a tactical strategy.
We have 15-20 years till China reaches parity with the US, for now it is time to lay low, gain strength and prepare for that time.
khair_ctg
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so-called "discrimination by west pakistanis" was an expected smokescreen to justify indian annexation of bangladesh/east pakistan landmass. 1947 to 1971 was 24 years only. this short duration itself just isn't enough time for systematic discrimination to take place. most shortcomings of east pakistani bengalis were caused by nearly two centuries of discrimination by british colonizers and domination by hindu zamindar class. this exploitation and the economic disasters during that period (including massive famines the scale of which even other places of the subcontinent probably hadn’t seen) rendered the bengal muslims extremely illiterate and economically deceased.
this was the reason that groups of people could be rallied on an issue based on their confusion between what a provincial and a Pakistan state language were, and the reason that let them to believe fairytales that “they” were there to snatch away our “mother language”. let alone acknowledging the official form of the “mother language” was developed by Hindu zamindars who set out to “purify” Bengal off Muslims and Muslim influence. and the effects still lived on when the 21st February began to be pushed as a grand day of the year for all of “Bangali jaati” – above and way beyond the actual relevance or purpose of the event when it happened.
amid all this, the United Pakistan administration adopted Bengali as the other state language (besides the trans-provincial and neutral language Urdu) in 1954 giving way to ignorance-fueled mob politics. @the just you would still cry “discrimination”
even during this short period 47-71, amid all this self-inflicting harms from the actions of EP Bengali politicians, major reversals of the course of history were happening. after 1947, Bengali Muslims could get the highest scholarships in school (know about "roll number discrimination" against Muslim students in Hindu majority school pre 1947), attain positions in the military at certain levels, become high skilled professionals –things that were relatively unthinkable under Hindu mahajans and bhadralok class. Bengali prime ministers and presidents would have offices in Karachi (as West Pakistani leaders could have offices in Dhaka). and so what that the Punjabis were still greater in numbers in the military. @the just would then cry “discrimination”
nothing was enough for some EP politicians. everything was supposed to lead to "discrimination" and the need for Indian military to invade us (aka to "save" us)
if there was anyone discriminating anyone, it was EP Bengali led by vile politicians discriminating themselves in favour of Indian interests
and boy was he right....
About language I have already said, this is in order to create disruption among the Musalmans. Your Prime Minister has rightIy pointed this out in a recent statement, and I am glad that his government have decided to put down firmly any attempt to disturb the peace of this province by political saboteurs or their agents. Whether Bengali should be the official language of this province is a matter for the elected representatives of the people of this province to decide. I have no doubt that this question should be decided solely in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of this province at the appropriate time. Let me tell you in clearest language that there is no truth [in rumors] that your normal life is to be touched or disturbed, so far as your Bengali language is concerned. But ultimately it is for you, the people of this province, to decide what should be the language of your province........................
But let me make it clear to you that the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no [255] other language. Anyone who tries to mislead [you] is merely the enemy of Pakistan. Without one state language, no nation can remain tied up solidly together and function. Look at the history of other countries. There[fore] so far as the state language is concerned, Pakistan's language should be Urdu; but, as I have said, it will come in time.
and i'm sometimes shocked at the accuracy of these words.... (@kalu_miah)
But I want to tell you that in our midst there are people financed by foreign enemies, who are intent on creating disruption. Their object is to disrupt and sabotage Pakistan. I want you to be on your guard, I want you to be vigilant, and not to be taken in by attractive slogans and catchwords. They say that the Pakistan government and the East Bengal government are out to destroy your language. [A] bigger falsehood was never uttered by a man. Quite frankly and openly, I must tell you that you have got amongst you a few Communists and other agents financed by foreign help, and if you are not careful, you will be disrupted. The idea that East Bengal should be brought back into the India Union is not given up, and it is their aim yet, and I am confident -- I am not afraid, but it is better to be vigilant -- that these people who still dream of getting back East Bengal into the Indian Union are living in a dreamland.
kalu_miah
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Problem is in our genes. A dalit nation can convert and share genes with the ruling class so much so that the ruling class that created this community no longer exist and are long forgotten. Yet the genes that made some of our dalit ancestors slaves of others before have not significantly changed, so they are easy to fool and are prone to fall into trap set by the same people. That is the basic problem. That problem can be solved but I do not want to mention such solutions here in the forum. Western wing were good enough to save themselves but not good enough to save us.
Moander
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Yes the problem is in our genes, Bangladesh Defense of PDF is the perfect example.
the just
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Am sorry for not believing all your talks.Because I can give you plenty of example of these incriminating evidence of discrimination regarding bangali people before 71. Here are few.
1 .My maternal uncle stood 2 and in his exam and became CA.Had a panjabi boss junior to him in rank and education.
2 .My maternal grandfather was a magistrate ,forced resign from service for not finding a Urdu speaking person not guilty in a murder case.
3. My own father in law. Ex sargodhian.Air force pilot.not been taken for training in USA despite having an outstanding record, because he was the single bangali in that group. He still has a letter from his superior saying sorry for not taking him because he is bangali.
There are hundreds of cases similar to these.Are you telling me they did this to bangali people because they loved us?
khair_ctg
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systematic discrimination is something else. although one can argue these individual cases may be a part of a larger picture as well. in any case it is hysterical expecting "love" from the same people to whom vile politicians showed so much ignorance and agitation right from the start.
you have to consider that east bengal as a region became quite handicapped from colonialism and Hindu zamindari. some of these differences - like ones you mentioned, although unacceptable - were bound to exist, not in a very different way from how generally a Dhaka or Chittagong city person will view someone who just came from the village. and on top of that, elements sympathetic to rejoining with Indian Union were super active right since 1947. and such differences were consciously over inflated, not just because there was a specific agenda involved, but the target people, rife with illiteracy and emotion, would fall for it.**
if these provincial-ist activities from those rogue Bengali elements left a bad taste with more patriotic Bengalis themselves, then how do you think those activities fared with Mohajirs and West Pakistanis, and what kind of a perception did that create about Bengali Muslims? maybe something similar could be said about any bad reputation of Punjabis as well. and this led some of the founding leaders of United Pakistan to call this a "Chinese Puzzle" or a viscous cycle. and they were right to recognize this provincialism very early on and the potential hazard it could bring to everyone of United Pakistan. and such tendency was particularly most dangerous for East Bengal. because of its backward state of affairs and its risky geographic position, the people of East Bengal were undoubtedly in a more shaky position to be exploited by the enemy
**just one example, despite allegations of discrimination in individual cases, Bengali Muslims in the military have had extensive service in foreign countries. its unfair to compare the extent of Bengali Muslim military representation compared to Punjabis; the colonial experience designed it like that. and the Air Force was no different which is why you would see somewhat of an over-representation of Bengali Muslims. PAF still recognizes many of their former aces from former East Pakistan
p.s. i just noticed your statement about that dismissal letter and the part saying "because you are Bengali" is just hard to believe because that is something very exceptional if it is true
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Basel
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This is perception of many in Pakistan too, but creation of BD was an international conspiracy and someone who's father was in PAF have told me that they knew in early 60 that we will lose East Pakistan and they had no power to do anything, he told me that he was a boy then and he cried after knowing that, the same person told me that intelligence have told higher authorities that losing East Pakistan is unavoidable even if Govt. is given to Mujib, if Mujib was given the Govt he would have transferred all imported assets to East Pakistan before breaking away from union.
kalu_miah
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There was discrimination, but if we waited some time and there were more educated people from the Eastern wing, there was a chance of reversing this trend. People are tribal by nature and they always try to pull up their own kind. This happens everywhere, even in developed countries like the US. But they were not killing our people and wiping out groups that opposed them. That was the mistake they made, in my opinion, people like SAK and Mujib should have been eliminated early on, before they became too powerful. The govt. then were incompetent and could not catch national traitors who were committing treason for decades and then put them out of commission.
What happened in the civil war in 1971 is what happens in all wars, innocent people died from both sides.
Note that after 1971, how many people and groups were wiped out in political killings and famine and finally Indian intelligence is now supervising this killing operation as of today. Is it possible to compare the two periods, before 1971 and after 1971? And I am not saying any of this so we can someday unite with Pakistan again, that is just not possible. !971 separation is irreversible, but the point of this thread is to understand where we went wrong, after our older generations fought and achieved Pakistan with so much zeal in 1947. We should not have lost faith so quickly and some of us should not have conspired with then enemy states like Soviet Union and India, that is flat out treason punishable by death, no matter how you slice it and dice it.
What we see is that after 1971, few people got fabulously rich, but overall the country has become a total mess and there is no end in sight. If we did not have garments industry and the remittance, both of which we could have in bigger scale if we remained with Pakistan, our fate would be much worse.
As a result of our separation from Pakistan, we ended up today as a vassal state of India. May be someday China will save us, if we remain loyal to that nation. But that remains to be seen. For now we are screwed for the foreseeable future.
The complain about discrimination was an excellent and effective propaganda tool the then national traitors were using with foreign advisers directing their actions, as it matched with the experience of most Bengali service holders who had to compete with non-Bengali people for the same position, and often lost due to non-Bengali's using their already entrenched position at the top, specially in the Army and Army led rule. But what we forgot to watch out for is that were we not making us vulnerable to much bigger and mortal threats if we separated? I believe we got emotionally instigated and taken for a ride. In order to end our petty grievances of a small number of govt. and private service holders, our nation lost whatever little sovereignty we had before 1971, and as a result we are today less independent and sovereign than before 1971. If we stayed together at least we had hope to fight within the system and win someday and get our fair share. But after separation, as a much smaller weaker and more vulnerable state, we lost all hope of ever becoming fully independent again, unless powerful countries like China decide to have some compassion for a loyal allied people and save us from Indian slavery.
What this proves without a doubt is that we are an emotional nation and we can be easily misled by fools to do grievous damage to our own vital national interest. In 1971 we did not become "independent", it was a nice label that gave our ego some boost, but the reality is that in 1971, from a lesser partner of a fully independent state, we became a full on vassal state of India, or to use plain language, a slave nation of India.
Cold Blood
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I would disagree. It was actually the opposite, the illiterate masses were in favor of united Pakistan. If the operation searchlight was not executed people would have never supported separation. On the other hand, the discrimination came into light because of the Bengali economists who were highly educated scholars, how would the ordinary people know about those huge disparities? At best, only the urban middle class were concerned about the discrimination. Cultural discrimination was also an issue but not as big as the economic one. Bengali was granted the state language status but the decision was annulled when Ayub Khan assumed power, however we didn't see any language movement this time, baring a minor movement in 1962 to halt the induction of Arabic script to write Bengali.
Moreover, there have been many attempts to cooperate by the Bengalis. Mohammad Ali Bogra, while being the Prime Minister of Pakistan for two years, presented "Bogra Formula" to have a political parity between the two wings, it was rejected by the military. The economists proposed several measurements to solve the disparity, they were all ignored.
asad71
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1. To be fair, W Punjab was more developed than E Bengal or other provinces of Pakistan. For instance, in 1955 in LHR and RWP I have seen metered cabs and double-decker buses. In education, economy, govt jobs and other indicators W Punjab was ahead. All developments in Bengal had been Calcutta centric. In education, and therefore employment, Bengalee Muslims were far behind Hindus.Sher e Bangla had realized this and had just begun addressing these.In civil service and military officer cadre Bengalee Muslims were almost absent.
2. It must be said of Ayub that he sincerely worked to redress the disparity. E Bengal Regt was raised at his recommendation as the GOC. He personally picked up smart young Bengalee youth and had them apply for commission. One such was a Hindu,CR Dutta who was commissioned as the only Hindu officer in PA barring doctors.This Piffer eventually rose to be a Maj Gen in BA.The renowned economist who was moving spirit behind drafting the 6 Points, Prof Nurul Islam, and National Professor, physician, late Nurul Islam had both benefited from Ayub's policy to send bright Bengalee students abroad for higher studies. Beside Cantt Public Schools, Ayub set up the first Cadet College at Chittagong to act as feeder institutions for PMA and other academies. In a process begun by Ayub, by 1970 the representation of Bengalees in the military had been raised to 15% by 1970. It was practically zero in 1947. Jinnah had invited leading Muslim industrialists in Burma and India to move to Pakistan.They were entrepreneurs were encouraged to invest in the East as in the West.
3. The truth is that Bengalee leaders post-Suhrowardy were mean and greedy. There was no visionary left after Sher e Bangla,Bogra and Suhrowardy died. This statement is equally true of the West post-Ayub.
2. It must be said of Ayub that he sincerely worked to redress the disparity. E Bengal Regt was raised at his recommendation as the GOC. He personally picked up smart young Bengalee youth and had them apply for commission. One such was a Hindu,CR Dutta who was commissioned as the only Hindu officer in PA barring doctors.This Piffer eventually rose to be a Maj Gen in BA.The renowned economist who was moving spirit behind drafting the 6 Points, Prof Nurul Islam, and National Professor, physician, late Nurul Islam had both benefited from Ayub's policy to send bright Bengalee students abroad for higher studies. Beside Cantt Public Schools, Ayub set up the first Cadet College at Chittagong to act as feeder institutions for PMA and other academies. In a process begun by Ayub, by 1970 the representation of Bengalees in the military had been raised to 15% by 1970. It was practically zero in 1947. Jinnah had invited leading Muslim industrialists in Burma and India to move to Pakistan.They were entrepreneurs were encouraged to invest in the East as in the West.
3. The truth is that Bengalee leaders post-Suhrowardy were mean and greedy. There was no visionary left after Sher e Bangla,Bogra and Suhrowardy died. This statement is equally true of the West post-Ayub.
extra terrestrial
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Cool story bro.
The fact is both Mujib and Bhutto were power hungry politicians and both wanted to be the premier of "entire Pakistan". If Mujib was given the power, he would have done everything to sustain his chair in Islamabad even if it required to sell out East Pakistan.
Basel
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Its not cool story its bitter one, nearly same story I have heard from people who were in good positions in those times or had very close relatives in good positions.
extra terrestrial
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Whoever told you the story, he has simply misguided you. Pakistani Intelligence failure was huge both before and during the War which is also one of the reasons for Pakistan's defeat. First, before the 1970 general elections, ISI assured Yahya Khan that Awamy League had no support in East Pakistan which prompted him to hold the elections. Then during the war, as late as November the intelligence reports argued that Pakistan Armed forces were marching quite successfully and the civil war would come to an end within few days which was far from ground realities.
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