Agartala Conspiracy confession, what does it mean for our history

[Vinod2070]

But back then, both wings of Pakistan were a sovereign country, what difference existed between two wings, that was for us settle, and not for you to decide or meddle in. It was purely an internal matter.

Yes, we were invited by you (meaning the BD leaders who were later chosen by a majority of the country).

It ceased to be an internal matter at some point which both of us know.

Posters like you who cannot distinguish this simple fact, shows that when it comes to having way with your geo-political interest such as breaking another country that is a threat to your country, you do not respect sovereignty of a country. You did not do it then, nor do you do it now, as Indian govt. meddle in internal politics in Bangladesh, always taking side with AL, using all kinds of made up excuses like protecting Hindu minority and preventing Islamic extremism.

Not really. We respect everyone's sovereignty. We just want to live in peace and harmony with everyone else in the world. We don't think any group in the world deserves to be ruled by any other.

Live and let live. And move on.

 

[kalu_miah]

Yes, we were invited by you (meaning the BD leaders who were later chosen by a majority of the country).

It ceased to be an internal matter at some point which both of us know.

Not really. We respect everyone's sovereignty. We just want to live in peace and harmony with everyone else in the world. We don't think any group in the world deserves to be ruled by any other.

Live and let live. And move on.

Yes, after we declared independence on 26th March, 1971, we sought your help, we had every right to as a sovereign country. But your meddling did not start on that date, it started in 1950's. Perhaps it was tit for tat, that is what many says now. But people in our landmass had to pay the price with blood.

You do not respect sovereignty. That is the crux of the matter. If you have access to classified files of RAW, I would welcome you to go through them. We know what is happening in Bangladesh. Every neighbor of India knows what is happening inside their country. You need to reign in a rogue entity and foreign policy that is driving it. This policy is shooting at your own feet. It will buy you long term grief.

 

[Vinod2070]

Yes, after we declared independence on 26th March, 1971, we sought your help, we had every right to as a sovereign country. But your meddling did not start on that date, it started in 1950's. Perhaps it was tit for tat, that is what many says now. But people in our landmass had to pay the price with blood.

People paid in blood not because of us but because Tikka Khan and his ilk thought that "once we kill 3 million of them, the rest will be eating out of our hands".

They looked down on the darker, smaller, funny sounding East Pakistanis and that reflected in their attitudes towards the Eastern wing and its people.

There may well have been other reasons, the primary reason the two wings separated was because they just had to. There was little to bind them together as Mountbatten had predicted with surprising accuracy along with the timeline.

You do not respect sovereignty. That is the crux of the matter. If you have access to classified files of RAW, I would welcome you to go through them. We know what is happening in Bangladesh. Every neighbor of India knows what is happening inside their country. You need to reign in a rogue entity and foreign policy that is driving it. This policy is shooting at your own feet. It will buy you long term grief.

I hope we have better terms with all our neighbors. India should definitely do a better job of it than it has so far. Neighbors being much smaller, it does become difficult. Our sheer size causes anxiety that we have failed to dissipate and our neighbors have not been able to adjust to.

Hopefully both sides will learn with time.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

- the two wings of Pakistan were bound to seperate (Mounbatten gave it 25 years, Abul Kalam Azad also predicted it)
- Western Wing racially feels superior to most South Asians to their east and south, so just like Sikhs and Kashmiri's it is natural for them to seek a separate nation. The truly unique case is East Bengal Muslims who wanted a separate nation (race/ethnicity I believe is the hidden factor that is not mentioned but it plays a role as important as religion, people do not want to admit it though)
- it is because of this racial/ethnic factor that Western wing could never accept a majority rule by the Eastern wing
- once the two wings separated, the Western wing is continuing their long struggle to keep India at bay, with help of other powers to balance this threat (first it was the US, lately increasingly its China as China is slowly replacing US as no. 1 super power and India is getting closer to the US)

kalu bhai

I heard that sarat Chandra bose & suhrawardi proposed an united Bengal independent of both India & Pakistan I mean that would be the best solution for both bd & west Bengal why was it rejected ? what was the Muslim league's & congress position on that

 

[kalu_miah]

People paid in blood not because of us but because Tikka Khan and his ilk thought that "once we kill 3 million of them, the rest will be eating out of our hands".

They looked down on the darker, smaller, funny sounding East Pakistanis and that reflected in their attitudes towards the Eastern wing and its people.

There may well have been other reasons, the primary reason the two wings separated was because they just had to. There was little to bind them together as Mountbatten had predicted with surprising accuracy along with the timeline.

I hope we have better terms with all our neighbors. India should definitely do a better job of it than it has so far. Neighbors being much smaller, it does become difficult. Our sheer size causes anxiety that we have failed to dissipate and our neighbors have not been able to adjust to.

Hopefully both sides will learn with time.

There is some truth to what you say about the cause for blood letting. Separation of the two wings was a foregone conclusion, as Mountbatten predicted.

You guys need to come to terms with your size, bigger size does not mean that you have the right to abuse and meddle in smaller countries. The world is much bigger than India and this attitude will only buy long term sorrow for you.

 

[Vinod2070]

There is some truth to what you say about the cause for blood letting. Separation of the two wings was a foregone conclusion, as Mountbatten predicted.

You guys need to come to terms with your size, bigger size does not mean that you have the right to abuse and meddle in smaller countries. The world is much bigger than India and this attitude will only buy long term sorrow for you.

Agree with the highlighted part. No one has the right to abuse anyone else, nor to meddle.

If you ask me, I just want to improve the lot of our poor people and see India provide equality of opportunity to every last Indian.

Anything else would be just a byproduct when 1.25 billion people can achieve their potential.

 

[kalu_miah]

kalu bhai

I heard that sarat Chandra bose & suhrawardi proposed an united Bengal independent of both India & Pakistan I mean that would be the best solution for both bd & west Bengal why was it rejected ? what was the Muslim league's & congress position on that

Here is the details for this movement:
United Bengal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Muslim League and the Congress issued statements rejecting the notion of an independent Bengal on May 28 and June 1 respectively. The Hindu Mahasabha also agitated against the inclusion of Hindu-majority areas in a Muslim-majority Bengal, while Bengali Muslim leader Khawaja Nazimuddin and Maulana Akram Khan sought the exclusion of Hindu-majority areas to establish a homogenous Muslim Pakistan. Amidst aggravating Hindu-Muslim tensions, on June 3 British viceroy Lord Louis Mountbatten announced plans to partition India and consequently Punjab and Bengal on communal lines, burying the demand for an independent Bengal.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

Here is the details for this movement:
United Bengal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

couldn't careless about the congress or Hindu mahasaba, but I am disheartened to know that the Muslim league rejected it, i am utterly disappointed, it was wrong of them to do so, we deserved what we got in 71, rejecting this proposal by the Muslim league was an injustice to the Bangladeshi people & i apologize for that, it was not fair & Bangladesh lost a lot of land & i believe Muslim league is guilty of this, & the anger of Bangladeshis is totally justified , i agree with you bro, i think you have some valid point regarding you notion of partition was wrong
bitter & i hate it, as i love my Pakistan but none the less the "truth" must prevail & as i said it, no matter how much i dislike it but unfortunately , you do have a valid point regarding the partition

regards

 

[kalu_miah]

couldn't careless about the congress or Hindu mahasaba, but I am disheartened to know that the Muslim league rejected it, i am utterly disappointed, it was wrong of them to do so, we deserved what we got in 71, rejecting this proposal by the Muslim league was an injustice to the Bangladeshi people & i apologize for that, it was not fair & Bangladesh lost a lot of land & i believe Muslim league is guilty of this, & the anger of Bangladeshis is totally justified , i agree with you bro, i think you have some valid point regarding you notion of partition was wrong
bitter & i hate it, as i love my Pakistan but none the less the "truth" must prevail & as i said it, no matter how much i dislike it but unfortunately , you do have a valid point regarding the partition

regards

Hindu's of Bengal would never accept a united Bengal. In 1905 Bengal partition, they wanted a united province to not loose influence of Kolkata on all of Bengal, but in 1947 they did not want a sovereign Bengal, because most Bengali Hindu's feared a Muslim majority united Bengal. So Hindu majority West Bengal opted for the security of a Hindu India instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Bengal_(1905)

So even if Muslim League supported it, United Bengal would end up in failure, because Hindu Bengali's of West Bengal would reject this anyways.

So Partition, the way it was done was the only possible solution for dividing British India.

The best option was not to have any partition, in my opinion, but then some people in the North West do not like rest of India, Hindu or Muslim, that was the bigger problem which caused partition and clueless East Bengal Muslims were essentially used as a pawn to gain this greater goal, perhaps, while they thought they were also the leaders in this movement. But I don't bring it up often, as people misunderstand my stand on this issue based on my own unique views on geopolitics.

In any case, it is all water under the bridge now, none of this can be undone. New corporate structures, flags, nationalism, elites have emerged based on these 3 territories. The challenge now is to make all these viable entities and improve HDI of the people of this region with as little hot conflict as possible.

Aside from East Bengal Muslims, I feel bad for Non-Bengali Muslims who moved to both wings during Partition. At least East Bengal Muslims have a country to show for. But these uprooted Muslims got a city, Karachi, in Pakistan and essentially nothing in Bangladesh. They are the real victims in the whole sordid saga.

 

[the just]

kalu bhai

I heard that sarat Chandra bose & suhrawardi proposed an united Bengal independent of both India & Pakistan I mean that would be the best solution for both bd & west Bengal why was it rejected ? what was the Muslim league's & congress position on that

Two part?what part?hello we are Bangladesh.that's bangla speaking state of India.its not even in indias west.getting together? Over our dead body.

 

[kalu_miah]

Two part?what part?hello we are Bangladesh.that's bangla speaking state of India.its not even in indias west.getting together? Over our dead body.

He is talking about a pre-partition proposal before 1947. This has nothing do with the present. Please read the link in post #217 on United Bengal, you will understand what he was talking about.

 

[Vinod2070]

Hindu's of Bengal would never accept a united Bengal. In 1905 Bengal partition, they wanted a united province to not loose influence of Kolkata on all of Bengal, but in 1947 they did not want a sovereign Bengal, because most Bengali Hindu's feared a Muslim majority united Bengal. So Hindu majority West Bengal opted for the security of a Hindu India instead.

Partition of Bengal (1905) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So even if Muslim League supported it, United Bengal would end up in failure, because Hindu Bengali's of West Bengal would reject this anyways.

So Partition, the way it was done was the only possible solution for dividing British India.

That is correct.

See, once you talk of dividing the country on the basis of religion, on the premise that Muslims can't live under a Hindu majority even with constitutional safeguards, it just leads to some logical conclusions that the reverse is also not possible.

Not partitioning Punjab or Bengal had become untenable after the Muslim league took that position. I am not commenting on the validity of the position itself here.

The best option was not to have any partition, in my opinion, but then some people in the North West do not like rest of India, Hindu or Muslim, that was the bigger problem which caused partition and clueless East Bengal Muslims were essentially used as a pawn to gain this greater goal, perhaps, while they thought they were also the leaders in this movement. But I don't bring it up often, as people misunderstand my stand on this issue based on my own unique views on geopolitics.

It was not the Muslim majority North West that wanted partition. It was mainly the Muslims in minority provinces like UP who were at the forefront.

In any case, it is all water under the bridge now, none of this can be undone. New corporate structures, flags, nationalism, elites have emerged based on these 3 territories. The challenge now is to make all these viable entities and improve HDI of the people of this region with as little hot conflict as possible.

Yes, it was probably for the good of all. We don't know what would have happened if there was no partition. Most likely, it would be worse for all of us.

Aside from East Bengal Muslims, I feel bad for Non-Bengali Muslims who moved to both wings during Partition. At least East Bengal Muslims have a country to show for. But these uprooted Muslims got a city, Karachi, in Pakistan and essentially nothing in Bangladesh. They are the real victims in the whole sordid saga.

They were the ones who wanted it in the first place.

They should try to not lord it over the local populations. I am not trying to be judgmental but on both sides, these people want to drive the agenda when they are only such a small share of the population. They should just act as ordinary citizens and not some kind of overlords over the natives.

 

[the just]

He is talking about a pre-partition proposal before 1947. This has nothing do with the present. Please read the link in post #217 on United Bengal, you will understand what he was talking about.

Yes started from the top.did understand. What I wrote is for the Dada calling morons in our amidst who secretly wish it .

 

[kalu_miah]

That is correct.

See, once you talk of dividing the country on the basis of religion, on the premise that Muslims can't live under a Hindu majority even with constitutional safeguards, it just leads to some logical conclusions that the reverse is also not possible.

Not partitioning Punjab or Bengal had become untenable after the Muslim league took that position. I am not commenting on the validity of the position itself here.

It was not the Muslim majority North West that wanted partition. It was mainly the Muslims in minority provinces like UP who were at the forefront.

Yes, it was probably for the good of all. We don't know what would have happened if there was no partition. Most likely, it would be worse for all of us.

They were the ones who wanted it in the first place.

They should try to not lord it over the local populations. I am not trying to be judgmental but on both sides, these people want to drive the agenda when they are only such a small share of the population. They should just act as ordinary citizens and not some kind of overlords over the natives.

If UP Muslims were leading the effort for Partition, then in my opinion they shot themselves at their feet, some got uprooted and started new life in a "foreign" land, others who did not move, remained as a smaller less powerful minority.

I try to stay away from speculating on what would have happened if partition did not happen. People for some reason have a taboo feeling about this issue. But if my theories are correct, then the result would be exactly opposite of what your view is on this. The break however is clean and irreversible due to forces unleashed since the partition. Because of this reason, I believe any South Asian initiative that tries to create regional relationship between these states, such as SAARC, BIMSTEC etc. will end up in failure. They are a waste of time, have no future and should be scrapped as they only raise false hopes. Bilateral relations are the only thing that has a future in this space in my opinion.

Non-Bengali Muslims apparently allied with West Pakistani's and tried to take advantage of their position of strength in business, bureaucracy and armed forces. Yes, this was indeed one of the sore points that majority Bengali's could not accept in Pakistan, hence the demand for full democratic rights, autonomy etc. But it was Operation Searchlight that broke the proverbial camels back not discrimination and unfair treatment. Rather than finger pointing and blaming others, my effort is mainly to find our (Bengali's in then Pakistan) own fault, if any.

 

[Vinod2070]

If UP Muslims were leading the effort for Partition, then in my opinion they shot themselves at their feet, some got uprooted and started new life in a "foreign" land, others who did not move, remained as a smaller less powerful minority.

I try to stay away from speculating on what would have happened if partition did not happen. People for some reason have a taboo feeling about this issue. But if my theories are correct, then the result would be exactly opposite of what your view is on this. The break however is clean and irreversible due to forces unleashed since the partition. Because of this reason, I believe any South Asian initiative that tries to create regional relationship between these states, such as SAARC, BIMSTEC etc. will end up in failure. They are a waste of time, have no future and should be scrapped as they only raise false hopes. Bilateral relations are the only thing that has a future in this space in my opinion.

Non-Bengali Muslims apparently allied with West Pakistani's and tried to take advantage of their position of strength in business, bureaucracy and armed forces. Yes, this was indeed one of the sore points that majority Bengali's could not accept in Pakistan, hence the demand for full democratic rights, autonomy etc. But it was Operation Searchlight that broke the proverbial camels back not discrimination and unfair treatment. Rather than finger pointing and blaming others, my effort is mainly to find our (Bengali's in then Pakistan) own fault, if any.

Will reply in detail later but perhaps there is a clue in the following slogan that was popular at the time:

"Hans ke liya hai Pakistan, Lad ke lenge Hindustan".

At least some of the Muhajirs were under the impression that "they will be back".

With a new Gazhani.

Most were just convinced by the leaders and did what they were told to. That is how it always works.

PS: Also the Muhajirs were probably under the impression that they will be running the new country. For them, the people already present in their new country were no good, to put it mildly.