After S400, Russia To Supply Deadly Air Missile System To India

[Dungeness]

It was apparent when he's named himself "Dung", but I made that post for people who do not troll, especially Indians who believe the Chinese don't import anymore.

What a quality post from a senior member, and you have big nerve to call other troll? By the way, one must have full of dung in the brain to associate "dung" with my name here.

You do realize China bought the S-400 too.

China still buys a lot of things like this from Russia even today. It's just not reported. Even a high profile system like the Su-35 is completely unreported in China, so forget about something like the Buk.

http://www.janes.com/article/63500/china-develops-longer-range-hq-16-sam-variant


In India, we have a policy where any imported weapon retains its foreign name. In China, the imported weapon is renamed. People don't know that the HQ-16 is simply a customized license produced Buk.

This is the 'indigenous' HQ-9's TEL.

This is the S-300 TEL exported to Iran.

In China the news would have gone, "China produces indigenous HQ-9."

If India had done this, the media would have reported it as, "India license produces customized S-300 called the S-300I." But we also call it indigenous production.

You tell me what's the difference.

Chinese HQ-9 must be different enough to win Turkey's tender when competing with Russian's S-300. There must be some reason that Russians were not complaining.

 

[grey boy 2]

What a quality post from a senior member, and you have big nerve to call other troll? By the way, one must have full of dung in the brain to associate "dung" with my name here.

Sorry bro, i beg to differ, i believe they are showing respect to associate "Dung" with your name, why? because Cow Dung has always been a necessity of their daily life for thousands of years, be it for building material, as energy
resource, cooking,etc, i've read somewhere, its has been even for sale in the E-commerce platform as well
ON TOPIC, i for one was so happy of our Indian friends buying weapons left and right like a there is no tomorrow, i consider this is text book example of "Asian pride"
S-400, deadly weapons like this and that killer, awesome, baby, more and more, will be cheering for you day and night, please make us Asians proud, thankyou

 

[Water Car Engineer]

The more money you spend on foreign weapons, the less you can spend on your own industries. Not a happy news if I were an Indian.

A VLR-SAM is in the pipe line, but this requirement is due now. The sector is now open for private sector participation, Reliance, one of the biggest in this sector, entered the defence sector in 15', this deal will a significant boost for them. With each, "purchase", these OEMs are usually building up a private sector, or several companies in India now.

 

[randomradio]

Chinese HQ-9 must be different enough to win Turkey's tender when competing with Russian's S-300. There must be some reason that Russians were not complaining.

Of course they didn't. You bought dozens of batteries of S-300 from them.

http://www.defensetech.org/2010/04/05/china-buys-more-russian-s-300-sams/
China has been buying S-300s for the past 20 years.

You developed some of your own tech after 2 decades of license production to make it exportable. The Israelis did that when they reexported American tech to India. After the Soviet Union collapsed, China signed a lot of deals with Russia, much more than India did.

I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong. All I'm saying is you are not sitting on a high horse when claiming stuff like "The more money you spend on foreign weapons, the less you can spend on your own industries. Not a happy news if I were an Indian."

We are only doing what you have already done.

 

[Dungeness]

Sorry bro, i beg to differ, i believe they are showing respect to associate "Dung" with your name, why? because Cow Dung has always been a necessity of their daily life for thousands of years, be it for building material, as energy
resource, cooking,etc, i've read somewhere, its has been even for sale in the E-commerce platform as well
ON TOPIC, i for one was so happy of our Indian friends buying weapons left and right like a there is no tomorrow, i consider this is text book example of "Asian pride"
S-400, deadly weapons like this and that killer, awesome, baby, more and more, will be cheering for you day and night, please make us Asians proud, thankyou

I can understand that they have to import C-17, Rafale, T-90s, S-400 etc, even M777, but a 1980's SA-11 variant? The funny thing is they seem to be proud of it. It reminds me of the big discussion on Chinese forum when Su-35 news was first broke out. Majority were against it, and certainly nobody was proud of it. Every time the news like this posted on PDF, you just wondering what the heck of those people in their military complex were doing everyday. They even talk about importing the freaking rifles for their infantries!

Anyway, it is their country and they can do anything with it.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

I can understand that they have to import C-17, Rafale, T-90s, S-400 etc, even M777, but a 1980's SA-11 variant? The funny thing is they seem to be proud of it. It reminds me of the big discussion on Chinese forum when Su-35 news was first broke out. Majority were against it, and certainly nobody was proud of it. Every time the news like this posted on PDF, you just wondering what the heck of those people in their military complex were doing everyday. They even talk about importing the freaking rifles for their infantries!

Anyway, it is their country and they can do anything with it.

Ummm, when was the last time India imported a SA11?

Akash SAM isnt SA11, and has a massive order for both IAF and IA.

All of these examples you're talking about have 30% offset clause. The recent Rafale deal was a 50% offset clause. So come again about industry not benefiting? If you want to do defence business in India now, you cant get through this.

India bought Apache Block 3s, what you dont know is that TATA is building a plant to produce it's fuselage. That plant will eventually be the only plant producing Apache fuselages.

India bought C295s, what you dont get is that TATA will raise a whole aerospace manufacturing plant for those birds, first of it's kind after HALs.

India bought M777s, but you dont mention is the whole assembly and testing of that artillery system will be done by Mahindra in India. Completely shifted to India.

India bought K9 Thunders, what you dont mention is the L&T is building an armored manufacturing plant, first of it's kind in the private sector, for those machines.

etc
etc
etc

This trend is new, all these OEMs are building India's private sector MIC. You will only truly appreciate this 10-20 years down the line, not at it's inception.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Of course they didn't. You bought dozens of batteries of S-300 from them.

http://www.defensetech.org/2010/04/05/china-buys-more-russian-s-300-sams/
China has been buying S-300s for the past 20 years.

You developed some of your own tech after 2 decades of license production to make it exportable.

We are only doing what you have already done.

China still buys a lot of things like this from Russia even today. It's just not reported. Even a high profile system like the Su-35 is completely unreported in China, so forget about something like the Buk.

In China the news would have gone, "China produces indigenous HQ-9."

If India had done this, the media would have reported it as, "India license produces customized S-300 called the S-300I." But we also call it indigenous production.

You tell me what's the difference.

 

[Śakra]

 

[lonelyman]

Of course they didn't. You bought dozens of batteries of S-300 from them.

http://www.defensetech.org/2010/04/05/china-buys-more-russian-s-300-sams/
China has been buying S-300s for the past 20 years.

You developed some of your own tech after 2 decades of license production to make it exportable. The Israelis did that when they reexported American tech to India. After the Soviet Union collapsed, China signed a lot of deals with Russia, much more than India did.

I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong. All I'm saying is you are not sitting on a high horse when claiming stuff like "The more money you spend on foreign weapons, the less you can spend on your own industries. Not a happy news if I were an Indian."

We are only doing what you have already done.

We buy to manufacture it ourself. Fact is Russia exports to China is down huge annually, we only buy very high end like s400, su35 and jet engines now. Plus what's wrong to buy and absorb the tech, internalize and then improve our own.

 

[randomradio]

We buy to manufacture it ourself. Fact is Russia exports to China is down huge annually, we only buy very high end like s400, su35 and jet engines now. Plus what's wrong to buy and absorb the tech, internalize and then improve our own.

Your friend thought you don't buy.

 

[Dungeness]

Ummm, when was the last time India imported a SA11?

Akash SAM isnt SA11, and has a massive order for both IAF and IA.

All of these examples you're talking about have 30% offset clause. The recent Rafale deal was a 50% offset clause. So come again about industry not benefiting? If you want to do defence business in India now, you cant get through this.

India bought Apache Block 3s, what you dont know is that TATA is building a plant to produce it's fuselage. That plant will eventually be the only plant producing Apache fuselages.

India bought C295s, what you dont get is that TATA will raise a whole aerospace manufacturing plant for those birds, first of it's kind after HALs.

India bought M777s, but you dont mention is the whole assembly and testing of that artillery system will be done by Mahindra in India. Completely shifted to India.

India bought K9 Thunders, what you dont mention is the L&T is building an armored manufacturing plant, first of it's kind in the private sector, for those machines.

etc
etc
etc

This trend is new, all these OEMs are building India's private sector MIC. You will only truly appreciate this 10-20 years down the line, not at it's inception.

Your post deserves a long reply, as you are more level headed than most of your gang here, and unlikely to resort to abusive language.

You may want to check your fact about BUK family air defense missiles, and see the relationship this BUK-M2E has with 70-80's BUK (US code name SA-11).

Thanks for the info on the offset clause of India's recent military procurement, and I agree that it is a step in the right direction. But take the recent assault rifle global tender for example, India has a long way to go for military equipment self-reliance. With all the military organizations, India can't make a decent rifle for your infantry soldiers? To be honest, it is beyond my imagination.

I know many of you talk about "ToT" like a religion as if it is THE indication of success of your indigenous effort, but don't be fooled by the percentage govt tells you. The real meat is in the remaining percentage. Take Tata/Denel howitzer project for example, can you really call it an indigenous howitzer with CKD kits from south Africa and a Tata truck? Is this the "private sector" model every Indian member seems to cheer about and peg their hopes on? Until you can cast your own gun barrel with Indian steel, the so call indigenous effort doesn't really mean much.

Many of your countrymen found the tremendous satisfaction and almost made it a national past time laughing at Chinese, labeling their effort as "copy, paste, steal, hack, reverse engineering, etc", but Chinese used the ToT of Mig-21, and made J-7ii, J-7iii, J-8ii, and eventually, FC-1. What India has done with the same ToT you got from the same source around the same time since then? If things turn sour between China and India, guess who is going to lol, and who is going to beg international help?

Sometimes I am wondering just exactly what makes many of you so cocky even down right arrogant (you are not one of them though). It is because you have Bollywood, democracy, English? What else you have to show for?

I hope with private sector involved in military equipment production, India will eventually establish its own strong military industries. There is no magic formula to achieve this other then HARD WORK. Until you guys are willing to work on the schedules like 7/11 (11 hours a day 7 days a week), or 5+2, year after year after year, you won't able to compete with Chinese, not your government organizations, nor your private sectors either.

Sorry if this post hurts, but I just wanted to be honest.

@Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @TaiShang @cirr @AndrewJin @grey boy 2

 

[randomradio]

Your post deserves a long reply, as you are more level headed than most of your gang here, and unlikely to resort to abusive language.

You may want to check your fact about BUK family air defense missiles, and see the relationship this BUK-M2E has with 70-80's BUK (US code name SA-11).

Thanks for the info on the offset clause of India's recent military procurement, and I agree that it is a step in the right direction. But take the recent assault rifle global tender for example, India has a long way to go for military equipment self-reliance. With all the military organizations, India can't make a decent rifle for your infantry soldiers? To be honest, it is beyond my imagination.

I know many of you talk about "ToT" like a religion as if it is THE indication of success of your indigenous effort, but don't be fooled by the percentage govt tells you. The real meat is in the remaining percentage. Take Tata/Denel howitzer project for example, can you really call it an indigenous howitzer with CKD kits from south Africa and a Tata truck? Is this the "private sector" model every Indian member seems to cheer about and peg their hopes on? Until you can cast your own gun barrel with Indian steel, the so call indigenous effort doesn't really mean much.

Many of your countrymen found the tremendous satisfaction and almost made it a national past time laughing at Chinese, labeling their effort as "copy, paste, steal, hack, reverse engineering, etc", but Chinese used the ToT of Mig-21, and made J-7ii, J-7iii, J-8ii, and eventually, FC-1. What India has done with the same ToT you got from the same source around the same time since then? If things turn sour between China and India, guess who is going to lol, and who is going to beg international help?

Sometimes I am wondering just exactly what makes many of you so cocky even down right arrogant (you are not one of them though). It is because you have Bollywood, democracy, English? What else you have to show for?

I hope with private sector involved in military equipment production, India will eventually establish its own strong military industries. There is no magic formula to achieve this other then HARD WORK. Until you guys are willing to work on the schedules like 7/11 (11 hours a day 7 days a week), or 5+2, year after year after year, you won't able to compete with Chinese, not your government organizations, nor your private sectors either.

Sorry if this post hurts, but I just wanted to be honest.

@Chinese-Dragon @ChineseTiger1986 @TaiShang @cirr @AndrewJin @grey boy 2

We didn't get Mig-21 ToT. We just got screwdriver tech. The Russians wanted to do a full ToT, but we said no. We didn't need it because we had the LCA program, which was developed from scratch without any ToT. Our HF-24 program also did not benefit from ToT. In fact we even modified the Gnat on our own, no different from how you copied the Su-27 and designated it J-11. This jet was called Ajeet.

After extensive development and even having done reverse engineering, we figured out that it's all useless. A copy is a copy, it won't have the modernized features available in the jets of the current time. By the time China reverse engineered the J-11, the Russian Su-35BM was ready.

Reverse engineering survived in China because the air force did not have an alternative. In India, while the company tried to modify existing technology, a next gen jet was always available from the international market. So the IAF was spoilt for choice. And the IAF has a mandate to not lose a war, so they always chased quality. That's why our industry had to switch tactics and start development on their own, which is paying off now because all this while they have been directly competing with larger foreign companies.

Take a look at the Kaveri engine. Picdel says it is possible to use the Kaveri engine as the Rafale's main engines when the jets come up for MLU in 2025. The engine core is actually a more advanced design than the best French engine. It's a variable cycle engine, something the Americans and Russians are yet to properly develop and field. So, an engine we designed in 1983 is good enough as a next gen engine for the Rafale in 2025.

Even the Israelis have praised our rocket designs. Barak-8 uses a very advanced rocket motor that we designed back in the 80s. And the Israelis are yet to match it.

Our T-72s have an indigenous gun barrel that has no Russian input, and is way better than the original gun. Pretty soon it will be the same for the T-90 also. It's all part of the process once original contracts are finished.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

We didn't get Mig-21 ToT. We just got screwdriver tech. The Russians wanted to do a full ToT, but we said no. We didn't need it because we had the LCA program, which was developed from scratch without any ToT. Our HF-24 program also did not benefit from ToT. In fact we even modified the Gnat on our own, no different from how you copied the Su-27 and designated it J-11. This jet was called Ajeet.

After extensive development and even having done reverse engineering, we figured out that it's all useless. A copy is a copy, it won't have the modernized features available in the jets of the current time. By the time China reverse engineered the J-11, the Russian Su-35BM was ready.

Reverse engineering survived in China because the air force did not have an alternative. In India, while the company tried to modify existing technology, a next gen jet was always available from the international market. So the IAF was spoilt for choice. And the IAF has a mandate to not lose a war, so they always chased quality. That's why our industry had to switch tactics and start development on their own, which is paying off now because all this while they have been directly competing with larger foreign companies.

Take a look at the Kaveri engine. Picdel says it is possible to use the Kaveri engine as the Rafale's main engines when the jets come up for MLU in 2025. The engine core is actually a more advanced design than the best French engine. It's a variable cycle engine, something the Americans and Russians are yet to properly develop and field. So, an engine we designed in 1983 is good enough as a next gen engine for the Rafale in 2025.

Even the Israelis have praised our rocket designs. Barak-8 uses a very advanced rocket motor that we designed back in the 80s. And the Israelis are yet to match it.

Our T-72s have an indigenous gun barrel that has no Russian input, and is way better than the original gun. Pretty soon it will be the same for the T-90 also. It's all part of the process once original contracts are finished.

While you're at it , you could also point out the fact that ever since the 1964 ( the year when PRC first tested it's N weapon ) , the emphasis has been to devote our ( extremely meagre ) resources to develop N weapons. Once this was tested in 1974 came the delivery mechanism of which the most economical was the Bomber ( given that solid & liquid fueled missiles wasnt easy to master .The lack of sensors & precision guidance technology meant that chances were if you did develop the missile , it wouldn't land on target.Add to that the fact that miniaturisation of N weapons to fit into a missile warhead was another technology to be mastered).
This was achieved in the early 1980's in the form of the DPSU - Sepecat Jaguar.The Mirage 2k ( & the MiG 29 ) was a bonus acquired principally to deal with the F-16's .

In 1971 , the deployment of the 7th fleet & the SU deployment of an SSN on its tail drove home some hard & bitter truths.Super & Regional powers would think twice before taking you on if you had N Weapons in your basement & more importantly you had a stealthy delivery vehicle for it.The ATV ( Advanced Technology Vessel or the SSBN ) programme commenced only to see fruition 4 decades later .


In between was the IGMDP( Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme which succeeded Project Valiant & Devil) where in 5 missiles were identified for development - Akash , Agni , Prithvi , Nag & Trishul.

Now , doesn't the above info strike the common viewer as strange .A nation which can develop N weapons , BM , SSBN's can't come up with an ordinary infantry assault rifle or a howitzer.That's coz all our resources ( after scraping the ground after the bottom of the barrel) had been thrown into developing the above technologies .We did receive external guidance , even help but these were primarily our own achievements .

Having mastered these technologies , we can now pursue more run of the mill equipment to develop.I'm sure the coming decade will see a plethora of information about various conventional weapons as well as platforms just as see a lot of info regarding Chinese developments in this field today .

 

[MilSpec]

We didn't get Mig-21 ToT. We just got screwdriver tech. The Russians wanted to do a full ToT, but we said no. We didn't need it because we had the LCA program, which was developed from scratch without any ToT. Our HF-24 program also did not benefit from ToT. In fact we even modified the Gnat on our own, no different from how you copied the Su-27 and designated it J-11. This jet was called Ajeet.

After extensive development and even having done reverse engineering, we figured out that it's all useless. A copy is a copy, it won't have the modernized features available in the jets of the current time. By the time China reverse engineered the J-11, the Russian Su-35BM was ready.

Reverse engineering survived in China because the air force did not have an alternative. In India, while the company tried to modify existing technology, a next gen jet was always available from the international market. So the IAF was spoilt for choice. And the IAF has a mandate to not lose a war, so they always chased quality. That's why our industry had to switch tactics and start development on their own, which is paying off now because all this while they have been directly competing with larger foreign companies.

Take a look at the Kaveri engine. Picdel says it is possible to use the Kaveri engine as the Rafale's main engines when the jets come up for MLU in 2025. The engine core is actually a more advanced design than the best French engine. It's a variable cycle engine, something the Americans and Russians are yet to properly develop and field. So, an engine we designed in 1983 is good enough as a next gen engine for the Rafale in 2025.

Even the Israelis have praised our rocket designs. Barak-8 uses a very advanced rocket motor that we designed back in the 80s. And the Israelis are yet to match it.

Our T-72s have an indigenous gun barrel that has no Russian input, and is way better than the original gun. Pretty soon it will be the same for the T-90 also. It's all part of the process once original contracts are finished.

Wow, Who told you this. Dude, every thing rivets to stamping to radars, to engines to even the analog dials on the system was made by HAL for the Mig21. I have been part for quite a few ToT projects in my career, and I have never seen anything as extensive, although ill planned when I think back about what was made by HAL, and at the rate of production unheard of for the mig 21.

 

[Hassan Guy]

The more money you spend on foreign weapons, the less you can spend on your own industries. Not a happy news if I were an Indian.

LOL, its india man. They are arms importers not exporters.