Afghan refugees face repatriation after 30 years in Pakistan

[TMA]

Seriously this is you:

Post-graduate PhD studies at the Max Planck Institute for Solid State Research, Stuttgart (www.fkf.mpg.de) in conjunction with the University of Stuttgart, Germany (www.uni-stuttgart.de), 1990-1993

I cannot help you then. I don't have the spare time to argue on this subject and I may need to better prepare myself. It is tempting though, this in my opinion remains one of the most important issues of our time.

I thought you might be a college student ... the Nazis and the German people themselves were highly educated -- the scary part of the Holocaust is that it happened in the 20th century, about 40 years after man took flight and about 20 years before Man landed on the moon.

I think a lot of the Muslims world has taught its children to have in the last 40 years -- the Palestinians may have legitimate grievances but to vaccinate oneself hate to force oneself to be more extreme and intransigent is self-defeating. The same can be said for Pakistan -- Pakistanis been feeding our children hate of India and it has brought nothing but misery for Pakistanis.

Asking questions about historical events, even if they be uncomfortable is considered "hate"?

Any respected researcher that debunks a necessary and sufficient component of the evidence.
For example:
1. if someone can successfully debunks that the Nazi records used in the calculation of the number of people killed
2. if someone can refute the narratives and eye witness accounts of the survivors
3. if someone can refute the narratives of the decedents

would be a small start.

The onus is on the accuser to prove his case.

1. One has to establish the authenticity of the N.S records first. The Victors were hardly impartial and had motives to tamper with them and then present them in the courtroom (incidentally the courtroom was set up by the Victors including the defence for the N.S Germans and the rules were set by them-hardly conducive to the interests of justice and truth). But let us assume that the N.S records of people killed is accurate and authentic however the number of people killed is different to people murdered in a systematic fashion. (Also were the N.S records, of people killed or people who died or indeed both - was this distinction made?) I would be curious to know if the cause of death was included in their records.
Revisionists do NOT deny that many hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions of Jews died or were killed during that period. What is at contention is whether it was a systematic plan to murder principally via homicidal gas chambers based upon race/ethnicity/religion and whether it was as high as six million or not?

I wish to know where the six million figure comes from? Have the N.S records been opened to the public? Is that what the proponents of the Holocaust used? If so it would be easy to look into those records and count them up. Or have they used a combination? Anyway please visit http://codoh.com/library/categories/971/ for more works on the statistics.

2. Does one have to accept uncritically the eyewitness accounts of survivors as the truth and nothing but the truth? Were the values of the eyewitness accounts used ascertained? Were they cross examined in an impartial trial? Please visit http://germarrudolf.com/germars-vie...ony-and-confessions-concerning-the-holocaust/ for more information on this.

Here is a snippet:"
In academia as well as in the justice system of a state under the rule of law, there is a hierarchy of evidence reflecting the evidential value. In this hierarchy, material and documentary evidence is always superior to eyewitness testimony.[4] Thus, academia as well as the justice system regard eyewitness testimony as the least reliable form of evidence, since human memory is imperfect and easily manipulated.[5] According to Rolf Bender, a German expert on the evaluation of evidence, its unreliable nature renders eyewitness testimony merely circumstantial evidence, in other words, not direct evidence.[6]"

Also visit http://codoh.com/library/categories/984/

Also visit http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf. Page 369, section commencing 4.5. Critique of Testimonies, Part 1: Implausible Statements

Here is an example of an eyewitness @

3. Narratives of the descendants of those who survived the (alleged) systematic attempts at murdering them, counts as evidence?

Curious:
1. Maybe at school as there were some visits from survivors but I cannot fully recall.
2. Yes; I have worked with a grand-daughter of a Jewish lady who went through the Holocaust. Did not broach the subject as it is an emotional one and felt there was no need especially at work.

 

[Basel]

Asalam o Alaikum dear respected members ! Every phenomenon has many aspects, Lets see what kind of treatment has given to those Pakistanis who visited Afghanistan in past years even when Afghans are enjoying tax free and secured life, free for doing any kind of business over here in Pakistan, Enjoyed every facility which in-fact many Pakistani themselves did not. We Pakistanis are facing the Emergency Like situation all the time for the last many years since Russian Invasion on Afghanistan, Over Populated roads , Economic crises for average Pakistani, Lack of opportunities for Pakistanis, Bribery culture extremely flourished after afghan refugees came to Pakistan. And Now "TERRORISM" !

This is what Afghans feel about Pakistan, and we still want to tolerate there stay in Pakistan, its time to throw them out of Pakistan forever.

 

[pakistani342]

Asking questions about historical events, even if they be uncomfortable is considered "hate"?


The onus is on the accuser to prove his case.

1. One has to establish the authenticity of the N.S records first. The Victors were hardly impartial and had motives to tamper with them and then present them in the courtroom (incidentally the courtroom was set up by the Victors including the defence for the N.S Germans and the rules were set by them-hardly conducive to the interests of justice and truth). But let us assume that the N.S records of people killed is accurate and authentic however the number of people killed is different to people murdered in a systematic fashion. (Also were the N.S records, of people killed or people who died or indeed both - was this distinction made?) I would be curious to know if the cause of death was included in their records.
Revisionists do NOT deny that many hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions of Jews died or were killed during that period. What is at contention is whether it was a systematic plan to murder principally via homicidal gas chambers based upon race/ethnicity/religion and whether it was as high as six million or not?

I wish to know where the six million figure comes from? Have the N.S records been opened to the public? Is that what the proponents of the Holocaust used? If so it would be easy to look into those records and count them up. Or have they used a combination? Anyway please visit http://codoh.com/library/categories/971/ for more works on the statistics.

2. Does one have to accept uncritically the eyewitness accounts of survivors as the truth and nothing but the truth? Were the values of the eyewitness accounts used ascertained? Were they cross examined in an impartial trial? Please visit http://germarrudolf.com/germars-vie...ony-and-confessions-concerning-the-holocaust/ for more information on this.

Here is a snippet:"
In academia as well as in the justice system of a state under the rule of law, there is a hierarchy of evidence reflecting the evidential value. In this hierarchy, material and documentary evidence is always superior to eyewitness testimony.[4] Thus, academia as well as the justice system regard eyewitness testimony as the least reliable form of evidence, since human memory is imperfect and easily manipulated.[5] According to Rolf Bender, a German expert on the evaluation of evidence, its unreliable nature renders eyewitness testimony merely circumstantial evidence, in other words, not direct evidence.[6]"

Also visit http://codoh.com/library/categories/984/

Also visit http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf. Page 369, section commencing 4.5. Critique of Testimonies, Part 1: Implausible Statements

Here is an example of an eyewitness @

3. Narratives of the descendants of those who survived the (alleged) systematic attempts at murdering them, counts as evidence?

Curious:
1. Maybe at school as there were some visits from survivors but I cannot fully recall.
2. Yes; I have worked with a grand-daughter of a Jewish lady who went through the Holocaust. Did not broach the subject as it is an emotional one and felt there was no need especially at work.

In my limited capacity -- I'm not an expert on the subject but from what I've seen and what little I know of how the world works -- the case seems pretty clear to me.

I do not know of any credible body of researcher who has disagrees with the holocaust narrative.

 

[TMA]

In my limited capacity -- I'm not an expert on the subject but from what I've seen and what little I know of how the world works -- the case seems pretty clear to me.

I do not know of any credible body of researcher who has disagrees with the holocaust narrative.

Fair enough.
By the way who do you think is credible enough? Or rather what would you consider credible?

 

[Abdullahpk]

Lets not be heartless here. These refugees have no link or relationship with the various Pakistano-phobic Afghan governments that have come into power. They see Pakistan as their homeland. I feel sympathy for them because I was the same story. My family moved from Lucknow and surrounding parts and today I am willing to die for Pakistan. This speaks of a missed opportunity by Pakistani government to assimilate people who are more loyal to Pakistan than Afghanistan. This is like the case of Biharis and millions of loyal Bangalis. I think we are making a mistake here by following such a draconian immigration policy.

Thats Afghani hearts for Pakistan, With respect i want to tell u that you are serving Pak Army may be so atleast you should not make these kinds of Statements, We still have not took the revenge of murders of Army Public School kids Properly !

 

[nangyale]

I honestly don't know where to start -- the list is so long.

One thing might help is if you rate each one of the links you have posted: Academicians for example do that with their references.

What I've decided to do is post some links on responding to Holocaust deniers -- perhaps they will help you -- feel free to apply the same criteria I suggested above:

1. Responses to Revisionist Arguments @ wiesenthal.com
2. COMBATING HOLOCAUST DENIAL: ORIGINS OF HOLOCAUST DENIAL @ usher.org
3. Israel, the Holocaust, and Anti-Semitism @ chomsky.info -- excerpt below:

He’s one of the founders of the Jewish state and the Zionist movement and one of the elder statesmen, a very honest man, he — just before his death in 1982 or so — made a rather eloquent and unusual statement in which he said that it’s — he used the Hebrew word for “sacrilege” — he said it’s sacrilege to use the Holocaust as a justification for oppressing others. He was referring to something very real: exploitation of probably the world’s most horrifying atrocity in order to justify oppression of others. That kind of manipulation is really sick.​

I'm tired today so I cannot combat you further in your holocaust denial today -- perhaps I'll think of a more systematic approach -- sadly it seems this is a more common disease here on defense.pk than what I would have thought?

@nangyale -- perhaps we should collaborate on this and answering anti-semitism.

I don't believe this to be the proper thread for discussing the issue of Holocaust and anti-Semitism maybe a thread in Europe section will be more appropriate.
What Pakistani members fail to appreciate is that majority of times invoking the Nazis or praising Hitler doesn't make you hard or a rebel.
It just shows to the world that
a) How ignorant you are of historical facts. and
b) How much danger you are to yourself your neighbors and thus shouldn't be trusted, especially with military technology.

People here need to be reminded that you can not go about boasting that you will do to Afghans (or anyone else) what Hitler did in WW2.
The reason being that first Pakistani society is not so inhumane and second we don't have the economic or military strength to carry out such a campaign (even if such is the desire of some). More importantly these Hurray "patriots" needs to be reminded what happened to Germany when it embarked on such a genocidal campaign. It lost the war, was divided between the victors and was occupied and a different government imposed. While most of it's political/military leaders were either killed or put on trial and jailed. @kaonalpha is this what you want for Pakistan as well.

 

[pakistani342]

Fair enough.
By the way who do you think is credible enough? Or rather what would you consider credible?

For subjects that know at the level of a layman (advanced or basic) I use the common person standard to just credible or not.

For subject I know with some rigor or more (branches of Statistics, AI, Engineering, Business ...) I use my own judgement and possibly those of colleagues, contemporaries and other tools available to a serious student.

 

[gayMo]

Is it ok to do that? What is the timeframe to become permanent? Is it ok to repatriate after 1500 years

 

[TMA]

I don't believe this to be the proper thread for discussing the issue of Holocaust and anti-Semitism maybe a thread in Europe section will be more appropriate.
What Pakistani members fail to appreciate is that majority of times invoking the Nazis or praising Hitler doesn't make you hard or a rebel.
It just shows to the world that
a) How ignorant you are of historical facts. and
b) How much danger you are to yourself your neighbors and thus shouldn't be trusted, especially with military technology.

People here need to be reminded that you can not go about boasting that you will do to Afghans (or anyone else) what Hitler did in WW2.
The reason being that first Pakistani society is not so inhumane and second we don't have the economic or military strength to carry out such a campaign (even if such is the desire of some). More importantly these Hurray "patriots" needs to be reminded what happened to Germany when it embarked on such a genocidal campaign. It lost the war, was divided between the victors and was occupied and a different government imposed. While most of it's political/military leaders were either killed or put on trial and jailed. @kaonalpha is this what you want for Pakistan as well.

I agree that this is not the correct place for this discussion. But that is about it. Historical revisionism is not about showing how hard one is but trying to get closer to the truth. Germany did not embark on a genocidal campaign (that is not to say that a lot of people were killed). My feeling is that if Pakistan did not have the military capacity that she has now and if her enemies from both from the west and east could, they would do worse to Pakistanis than what was done to Germans post WW II. (And they suffered BAD).
Anyway this is not the correct place.

 

[volatile]

A very big humanitarian crisis in making. More emphasis is being given by Pakistani leaders these days on this issue. Will be very troubling for lot of people.

India can accommodate them at their soil , On the lighter side this is sad but it is necessary evil