Afghan Officials want to support military strike in Pakistan

[roadrunner]

He's a mayor of kabul because he can only just sit there and rant, nothing else is in his power instead of his masters who tell him what to do next and who run afghanistan. As for the afghans, they are unthankful selfish nogood bastards. All they gifted us was with a wreck economy, suecide bombing and claming peshwar as their own. Besides i never mentioned punishing anyone, i said to bomb places that are used against pakistan from within afghanistan. I would like to draw your attention towards the action taken by turkey.

Bombing installations is different. This may punish the Afghani government (though this wouldnt happen - the bombing). But deporting people would only play into the Afghani government's hand, much like sanctions in Iraq played into Saddam Hussein's hands..punishing populations or ordinary people never works, but sends them towards a new ally. In this case the ordinary people would have to ally with the central government that is anti Pak. It is better to keep good relations with the ordinary Afghan Pashtun, so that the threats that Karzai makes to Pakistan do not come about. Instead he is kept isolated. This is Pakistan's interest..to have the support of the Afghan people (not including Tajiks, they'll never be friendly with Pakistan as they have their own allegiances).

For mining the border, I was all for this a year ago. Now not so sure. I think there's a realization that one cannot seal off the border completely (not even the US can do it). As far as Amarullah Saleh's comments are concerned..are they really that important? it's expected the central government of Afghanistan, which is Tajik run (Karzai is just a puppethead), is going to make these accusations. They did it in the past with the Soviet puppet regime in the 80's (even sheltering BLA), and they will make the same statements in the future everytime a Tajik filled government is propped up. Know who your enemies are according to Sun Tzu.

PS Turkey is a whole different scenario.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

. It is better to keep good relations with the ordinary Afghan Pashtun, so that the threats that Karzai makes to Pakistan do not come about. Instead he is kept isolated. This is Pakistan's interest..to have the support of the Afghan people (forget Tajiks, they'll never be friendly with Pakistan as they have their own allegiances).

Completely agree. We need to expand our relationship with them - trade, investment etc. Like I said before, the two nations will always be linked, and better to take steps to build a positive relationship than a negative one.

Is the Afhan Govt. conducive to such attempts though?

 

[IceCold]

IC:

You are making the same argument someone on the Afghan side is probably making when they talk of bombing Pakistan. The two countries need to get off the blame game and understand the domestic compulsions and restrictions in place on either side, and work on efforts like Biometric ID's (which for some odd reason the Afghans have thrown a hissy fit about) to better monitor the flow of people between the two borders. The Afghans also need to give up this dream of annexing Pakistani territory - then they might not have so much opposition to the border control and security plans suggested by Pakistan.

Perhaps the US could indicate its good intentions by goading the Afghan administration in the right direction as well. Heavens knows they don't mind "interference in a sovereign nations affairs" when it comes to supporting political parties, Leaders and policies in Pakistan. Just a little of that on the Afghan side could work wonders in terms of boosting confidence between the two countires if the Afghan rhetoric is toned down.

Pakistan and Afghanistan are always going to be linked - trade between the two countries, and through the two countries, is going to skyrocket once peace comes about. It is in the interest of all to get together and work for peace.

The reason they are making such arguments is because of the weak stance shown by us. And yes while we can bomb the hell out of them, there is nothing they can do about it except of a few statements. Pakistan on its part has done more then enough to boost confident between the two countries, yet that doesnt seem to be the case with afghanistan as they are going to an extent supporting military action inside pakistan. And yes i do agree that afghanistan and pakistan will be linked together but that link has to be controlled to an extent that it doesnt hurt our interest in the region. We need to make afghanistan realize that its not in their best interest to rant against pakistan make use of their soil for terrorism in pakistan and to make it realize force is needed.

 

[roadrunner]

Completely agree. We need to expand our relationship with them - trade, investment etc. Like I said before, the two nations will always be linked, and better to take steps to build a positive relationship than a negative one.

Is the Afhan Govt. conducive to such attempts though?

You'd need to replace the current government with a more Pashtun dominated one imo to get this positive relationship to occur (the government should be Pashtun dominated anyway as it is the largest ethnic group).

 

[blain2]

Completely agree. We need to expand our relationship with them - trade, investment etc. Like I said before, the two nations will always be linked, and better to take steps to build a positive relationship than a negative one.

Is the Afhan Govt. conducive to such attempts though?

I concur but want to make a point that this relationship should be extended to include Norther Alliance factions which are a part of the Afghan elite and also the current government.

I hate to go slightly Ahmed Rashid (although I have many bones to pick with him), here but we played the exclusion game during the Afghan Jihad because we gave preference to the Pashtun dominated Afghan Mujahideen parties. I think everyone knows the reason behind that but that was in my opinion short-sightedness on our (ISI, PA, GoP) part.

There is an inbuilt distrust from those days between the side which is now known as the Panjsheri mafia and Pakistan. They accuse us of using their country to attain strategic depth (its a theory with which I disagree), I think we only want a friendly, cooperative Afghanistan but I think we want it on our terms and that is where the problem lies. If we say to the Afghan government "let bygones be and start anew", I think they would stop making these "irritating" statements (these are mostly irritants because there is no actual threat behind them) but this Taliban issue has to be resolved before we can actually even talk to them about moving on.

In terms of liking or disliking Pakistan, the lines are pretty clearly drawn between the Pashtu speaking Afghans and the Persian (Darri) speaking ones. Due to the background mentioned above, most of the Darri speaking Afghans have a strong dislike for Pakistan and lay the blame for all their miseries on Pakistan's doorstep even though the reality is that Afghanistan has been messed up primarily due to the great powers game and Pakistan, being a regional player, has only tried to salvage her interests in this messed up game being played out at the cost of Afghanis. BTW, Pakistan is not the only player, Americans, Russians, Iranians and now Indians, Uzbeks and Tajiks (the governments) have all done harm to Afghanistan in one way or another by playing favorites.

Pashtu speaking Afghans take a more balanced approach toward Pakistan in general.

I think this problem will only start to go away once Americans are out of Afghanistan and the country has a government which is well represented by the Pashtuns and Tajiks alike (and other minorities like Uzbeks, Hazaras etc.) so other countries can't have overt leverage over them (as in the case of Pakistan with Pashtuns and Iran with Tajiks etc). Currently, everyone involved in Afghanistan wants a government pliant to their cause and interests. All of the players have to get over this tendency including Pakistan.

 

[mujahideen]

u can be sure of one thing whether it's pashtuns or the northern alliance afghans in general hate pakistan all the destabalising elements that are causing trouble in pak are based in afghanistan with their full knowledge and permission.

Agreed. Thier hate for Pakistan runs throughout their country. I say kick all Afghans out of Pakistan and seal the border. I mean after all we have done for them, and even today we are literally feeding their country at the expense of our people. If we cut of the supplies to Afghanistan they will die, but at least our people will live. It is not in our interest to be friends with Afghanistan, thus we ought to end all relationships with that country. But then again some of our solutions are easier said then done.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I concur but want to make a point that this relationship should be extended to include Norther Alliance factions which are a part of the Afghan elite and also the current government.

I hate to go slightly Ahmed Rashid (although I have many bones to pick with him), here but we played the exclusion game during the Afghan Jihad because we gave preference to the Pashtun dominated Afghan Mujahideen parties. I think everyone knows the reason behind that but that was in my opinion short-sightedness on our (ISI, PA, GoP) part.

There is an inbuilt distrust from those days between the side which is now known as the Panjsheri mafia and Pakistan. They accuse us of using their country to attain strategic depth (its a theory with which I disagree), I think we only want a friendly, cooperative Afghanistan but I think we want it on our terms and that is where the problem lies. If we say to the Afghan government "let bygones be and start anew", I think they would stop making these "irritating" statements (these are mostly irritants because there is no actual threat behind them) but this Taliban issue has to be resolved before we can actually even talk to them about moving on.

In terms of liking or disliking Pakistan, the lines are pretty clearly drawn between the Pashtu speaking Afghans and the Persian (Darri) speaking ones. Due to the background mentioned above, most of the Darri speaking Afghans have a strong dislike for Pakistan and lay the blame for all their miseries on Pakistan's doorstep even though the reality is that Afghanistan has been messed up primarily due to the great powers game and Pakistan, being a regional player, has only tried to salvage her interests in this messed up game being played out at the cost of Afghanis. BTW, Pakistan is not the only player, Americans, Russians, Iranians and now Indians, Uzbeks and Tajiks (the governments) have all done harm to Afghanistan in one way or another by playing favorites.

Pashtu speaking Afghans take a more balanced approach toward Pakistan in general.

I think this problem will only start to go away once Americans are out of Afghanistan and the country has a government which is well represented by the Pashtuns and Tajiks alike (and other minorities like Uzbeks, Hazaras etc.) so other countries can't have overt leverage over them (as in the case of Pakistan with Pashtuns and Iran with Tajiks etc). Currently, everyone involved in Afghanistan wants a government pliant to their cause and interests. All of the players have to get over this tendency including Pakistan.

By not taking the Northern Alliance into the ambit of the opposition to the USSR backed regime in Afghanistan was indeed, as you have pointed out, a grave error in the calculation of Pakistan at that time.

The distrust then has now become more concretised than ever before and it will take a long time for Pakistan to be able to regain the trust. Indeed, attempts should be made, but it is a moot point as to how successful it will be in the short term.

Right now, the interest of the world is intense in Afghanistan. This is more so since the Central Asian Republics, after the fall of Communism in USSR, has taken a new strategic importance, aggrandised by the oil shortage in the world and upsurge in the industrialisation in Asia. The Shanghai Five, TAP, Russian interests, US interest to maintain a presence in the close vicinity of Russia and China so as to be able to influence the events in Russia and China are some of the inputs to this strategic powerplay. India too has its interests there.

It will be surprising if the Americans leave Afghanistan in the near future. Americans are here to stay in Afghanistan for quite a long time, notwithstanding the AQ issue. Connected is the interest of America to have a stable and calm Pakistan, so that she can put into place the TAP to the Gwadar port, so that it can neutralise China there to some extent as also oversee Chinese activities and at the same time, sell oil to the Asian oil hungry nations and bolster and stabilise her turbulent economy.

Afghanistan and Pakistan are important inputs in America's geostrategic canvas.

Sealing the border may keep the Pashtuns out, but one wonders if it can keep the US out, that is if one understand the import!

 

[roadrunner]

Salim, Blain2,

Wiser opinions, though I don't agree with either of you that this political schism between Pakistan and the Tajiks started due to Pakistan's involvement in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Afaik, Pakistan did support Tajik elements during the Soviet era, Ahmed Shah Masood's weapons came via Pakistan, and he had a very close relationship with certain Pakistani madrassah's such as those run by the JUI. Dostum got training from the Uzbeks, and much of the Pashtun guerillas got training from Pakistan. It is possible the support for the Taliban (a Bhutto legacy) has caused some of the Shia Hazara and perhaps even Tajiks to turn against Pakistan (though some were part of the Taliban). Taliban was predominantly a Pashtun movement and the Tajik warlords didn't seem to like having a Pashtun majority government, just as the Pashtuns didn't like a Tajik majority government. Elimination of the warlords, proper democracy would resolve it. Right now, you have powerful warlords of each ethnic group fighting each other. It could have worked out well, but for too many political blunders committed by the Taliban. However, I think cultural differences do exist with the warlords of one ethnic group being favoured over the other leading to all this sectarian conflict. The Pashtuns, the Tajiks, the Uzbeks don't seem to get along. Each group seems to want complete control of the other one.

 

[mujahideen]

I just heard heard President Musharraf warning that any strike by outside forces will be seen as an invasion and will result in a declaration of war from Pakistan. I heard this when I was watching his program "Awam-E-Sadr Say." With the President now sending warnings and I do believe he is speaking for the entire country when is sent this warning, no one would even dare take such a step. The whole world knows their is nothing more dangerous than a united Pakistan nation fighting a war.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Roadrunner,


Aren't the Bhuttos, Shias?

Aren't the Tajiks, Shias?

If so, why did the Tajiks have problems with Bhutto's Taliban?

 

[IceCold]

The whole world knows their is nothing more dangerous than a united Pakistan nation fighting a war.

This is however very true indeed.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

This is however very true indeed.

The whole world knows their is nothing more dangerous than a united Pakistan nation fighting a war.

First of all, are you all saying that Pakistan is not united?

Every country has problems that appears that the country is in its throes of existence!

How is an united Pakistan dangerous?

Pakistan is a nation as good as any united nation.

So, what exactly, apart from giving salve to your troubled and worried mind, are you implying?

Finding salves and excuses is no answer to facing reality and getting the bull by the horns.

Pakistan is as good as any nation in the world. It can solve its problems like any other nation in the world. The population requires no salves, balms or excuses to not face the reality.

Sooner the population shed their self pity and face reality, the sooner she will rid herself of the problems!

 

[IceCold]

First of all, are you all saying that Pakistan is not united?

You need to have a broader sense of understanding before qutoing my post into your words.
Now let me explain it in a way so that even you can understand it. Pakistani nation is united, there is no doubt in that but when it comes to an out side threat, then even those who have differences join in. Remember the enemy of my enemy is my best friend. So If US decides to attack pakistan, the president has made it clear it will be considered as an act of war and pakistan will declare war.

 

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner,


Aren't the Bhuttos, Shias?

Aren't the Tajiks, Shias?

If so, why did the Tajiks have problems with Bhutto's Taliban?

Eh? The Tajiks are mainly Sunni. Bhutto was Shia that part is true. Sunni Tajiks had problems with Sunni Taliban simply because they were not part of the government.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Eh? The Tajiks are mainly Sunni. Bhutto was Shia that part is true. Sunni Tajiks had problems with Sunni Taliban simply because they were not part of the government.

Thanks for the clarification.

If the Tajiks are Sunni, then what is their problem?

Why are the opposing?

That is what I want to know.

Ethnicity is playing a role?