Advanced Munitions Development program Pakistan (AAM) and (AGM)

[DESERT FIGHTER]

A2a missile especially a medium range active radar seeker variant can both be used by aircraft and on the ground-airbases-ships etc. against cruise missiles. There were news long time ago about Pak experiments with missiles called H2 and H4. They might be a2g missiles or evolving steps for an a2a missile project but no news afterwards possibly shelved project.

H- and H-4 have been in service since long.

But they arent A2A missiles rather Stand Off Munitions.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A2a missile especially a medium range active radar seeker variant can both be used by aircraft and on the ground-airbases-ships etc. against cruise missiles. There were news long time ago about Pak experiments with missiles called H2 and H4. They might be a2g missiles or evolving steps for an a2a missile project but no news afterwards possibly shelved project.

H2 (60 km) and H4 (120 km) are the Denel Dynamics Raptor I and Raptor II, respectively. These are stand-off range guided glide-bombs and have been in service for some time with the Mirage III/5 units.

Can we develop a new 5th gen Fighter without developing Munition for it? Because 5th gen requires internal weapons bay and as Pakistan prefers single engine Jets wouldn't the current air-to-air munition a little oversized for it?

Or can the Mou with south Africa will allow us to integrate their Air-to-Air missiles with our own platform?

Too early to say if the PAF FGF will be single or twin-engine, much less large or small (e.g. fitting the WS-15 could see a fighter as big as the F-35). Anyways, I don't think fitting AAMs in the internal bay would be the issue, rather, the concern might be to develop AShM and ALCM that are compact - and effective - enough for internal bays.

 

[PDF]

Too early to say if the PAF FGF will be single or twin-engine, much less large or small (e.g. fitting the WS-15 could see a fighter as big as the F-35). Anyways, I don't think fitting AAMs in the internal bay would be the issue, rather, the concern might be to develop AShM and ALCM that are compact - and effective - enough for internal bays.

We have almost no information publically on the specifications required on FGF design. Only speculation... The FGF hasn't even left the drawing board... One of the designs we initially developed was rejected. Currently, we have no outsiders participating in this project. Let's see what unfolds...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We have almost no information publically on the specifications required on FGF design. Only speculation... The FGF hasn't even left the drawing board... One of the designs we initially developed was rejected. Currently, we have no outsiders participating in this project. Let's see what unfolds...

I know the illustration doesn't mean much, but I guess the PAF is also keeping an eye on the Airbus FCAS concept (e.g. removing horizontal stabilizers)?

 

[GriffinsRule]

Dude I'm not going to present it on a dish to the self styled PDF critics.
The Harpoon capability is very much there and all those saying we need US permission for this and that well i would like to ask them if it was the Americans who gave us permission to convert and arm our F-16s with non conventional weapons. !!!

Attaching a unguided bomb to be lobbed over the battlefield vs integrating a guided weapon without the OEM are two different things though

 

[Army research]

H2 (60 km) and H4 (120 km) are the Denel Dynamics Raptor I and Raptor II, respectively. These are stand-off range guided glide-bombs and have been in service for some time with the Mirage III/5 units.


Too early to say if the PAF FGF will be single or twin-engine, much less large or small (e.g. fitting the WS-15 could see a fighter as big as the F-35). Anyways, I don't think fitting AAMs in the internal bay would be the issue, rather, the concern might be to develop AShM and ALCM that are compact - and effective - enough for internal bays.

The plane is dual engine

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

MOU is not a contract.

 

[khanasifm]

A darter is very capable aam with range little less than British new 5g am but due to its thrust vectoring and 90-100G much higher Maneuverability than irst

 

[khanasifm]

Interesting so $700-800,000 9x also missed and it was std flares ?? Apparently ??

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Full Trust in Pakistani planning , an I am sure we will reach this planned mile stone in next 10 years.

The Aviation city is certainly a long term initiative

 

[BHarwana]

Are Pakistani JF-17 using FT-5 bombs?

 

[MiG-35-BD]

Quote:
M.Musa said: ↑
We have almost no information publically on the specifications required on FGF design. Only speculation... The FGF hasn't even left the drawing board... One of the designs we initially developed was rejected. Currently, we have no outsiders participating in this project. Let's see what unfolds...

That is very interesting. My thoughts are (please note, I am speculating/dreaming):

1. Stealth / LO features
2. Supercruise at 1.2 mach
3. Range equal to the F-16

The best way to design such a plane would perhaps be to keep it simple and work with available technologies. I am not an aeronautical engineer but I have informally studied it and I believe such a plane is possible within the parameters presented above.

Here is how one could go about designing such a plane - take design cues from what has already been researched rather than re-inventing the wheel (aka LCA / Arjunk / etc).

The closest aircraft to such a specification requirement are:
1. X-31 (delta wing, TVC)
2. J-10 (delta wing, potential TVC)
3. F-16 XL (Delta wing, TVC)

At the same time, one can perhaps look at the designs of stealth aircraft already produced:
1. J-20 (great design but less valuable for air superiority, a prime requirement for PAF and also too big and maintenance intensive. But could a smaller J-20 around a single engine be a broad possibility)
2. F-23. This aircraft lost the US fighter contest due to political reasons. You can see the only test pilot to have flown both the YF-23 and YF-22 basically hinting that the YF-23 lost because of politics and that it was a superior design. (can't post links yet but you can find on you tube "YF-23 Dem/Val presentation metz sandberg"
3. F-22. One interesting innovation in the F-22 is the use of TVC not to do cobra maneuvres but to improve high altitude performance. TVC can actually improve range, speed and stealth of an aircraft. See this paper for details how: (I can't post links yet due to not having enough posts but you can google and find the icas website paper ID ICA0534 a pdf file)
Taking these factors into consideration, perhaps the best design for a limited budget light-medium weight design is as follows:

1. A simple delta wing design. This provides the lowest drag and highest speed and range
2. A single engine like the WS-10 or twin RD-93s. Should give enough thrust without becoming an expensive and hard to maintain aircraft
3. TVC. TVC along with FBW (fly by wire) will allow a simple delta to be highly maneuverable, it will also allow the canted tails (below) to be very small, drastically reducing drag and eliminating canards.
4. Twin canted tails that are used for both horizontal and vertical stabilization, in a similar configuration to the YF-23 (but much smaller given modern TVC and FBW advances)
5. If a single AL-31 / WS-10 is used, one could ride off the upgrades and parts bin of the J-10.

These features should be able to achieve an aircraft capable of supercruise of mach 1.2, excellent maneuverability both at high and medium altitudes and an ideal strike and BVR platform able to meet any challenge India can bring.

Technically such a plane would be gen 5.5 given the reduced tail surfaces config.

By then munitions designed for internal carriage would be mature and available in the open market, so that should not be a problem.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I think the FGF shouldnt be a multi role but more geared towards air superiority. If multi role abilities come as a plus then that's fine. Because we would already have other planes to take care of multi role requirements.

 

[BHarwana]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) this was the lest done today and is this a test of New AAM developed for JF-17?

The test was done at Sonmiani test range. I have the NOTAM for that range as well can you please check and confirm

https://twitter.com/x/status/959414113599459328

When I started this thread every one bashed me. Now here is the first proof that the program exists for Pakistan.

 

[mzeeshanfahd]

Quote:
M.Musa said: ↑
We have almost no information publically on the specifications required on FGF design. Only speculation... The FGF hasn't even left the drawing board... One of the designs we initially developed was rejected. Currently, we have no outsiders participating in this project. Let's see what unfolds...

That is very interesting. My thoughts are (please note, I am speculating/dreaming):

1. Stealth / LO features
2. Supercruise at 1.2 mach
3. Range equal to the F-16

The best way to design such a plane would perhaps be to keep it simple and work with available technologies. I am not an aeronautical engineer but I have informally studied it and I believe such a plane is possible within the parameters presented above.

Here is how one could go about designing such a plane - take design cues from what has already been researched rather than re-inventing the wheel (aka LCA / Arjunk / etc).

The closest aircraft to such a specification requirement are:
1. X-31 (delta wing, TVC)
2. J-10 (delta wing, potential TVC)
3. F-16 XL (Delta wing, TVC)

At the same time, one can perhaps look at the designs of stealth aircraft already produced:
1. J-20 (great design but less valuable for air superiority, a prime requirement for PAF and also too big and maintenance intensive. But could a smaller J-20 around a single engine be a broad possibility)
2. F-23. This aircraft lost the US fighter contest due to political reasons. You can see the only test pilot to have flown both the YF-23 and YF-22 basically hinting that the YF-23 lost because of politics and that it was a superior design. (can't post links yet but you can find on you tube "YF-23 Dem/Val presentation metz sandberg"
3. F-22. One interesting innovation in the F-22 is the use of TVC not to do cobra maneuvres but to improve high altitude performance. TVC can actually improve range, speed and stealth of an aircraft. See this paper for details how: (I can't post links yet due to not having enough posts but you can google and find the icas website paper ID ICA0534 a pdf file)
Taking these factors into consideration, perhaps the best design for a limited budget light-medium weight design is as follows:

1. A simple delta wing design. This provides the lowest drag and highest speed and range
2. A single engine like the WS-10 or twin RD-93s. Should give enough thrust without becoming an expensive and hard to maintain aircraft
3. TVC. TVC along with FBW (fly by wire) will allow a simple delta to be highly maneuverable, it will also allow the canted tails (below) to be very small, drastically reducing drag and eliminating canards.
4. Twin canted tails that are used for both horizontal and vertical stabilization, in a similar configuration to the YF-23 (but much smaller given modern TVC and FBW advances)
5. If a single AL-31 / WS-10 is used, one could ride off the upgrades and parts bin of the J-10.

These features should be able to achieve an aircraft capable of supercruise of mach 1.2, excellent maneuverability both at high and medium altitudes and an ideal strike and BVR platform able to meet any challenge India can bring.

Technically such a plane would be gen 5.5 given the reduced tail surfaces config.

By then munitions designed for internal carriage would be mature and available in the open market, so that should not be a problem.

I heard from somewhere .... that project carver ..... emerged from shadows ....