Adnan Rashid regrets attack on Malala

[Secur]

Because stretagic assets of pakistan army

Then , maybe , its time to rethink because with friends like these ...

 

[Side-Winder]

@<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=141953" target="_blank">balixd</a></u>

There's a simple question , I ask .

What is the Pakistan Army doing , honestly ? Why dont we start an operation in North Waziristan and other militant infested agencies to clear them , once and for all , just like Swat ?

Just like swat? why do you forget that you have lost 15,000 soldiers and 10,000 injured lying on bed -- a series of suicide blasts killing nearly 40,000 citizens of pakistan -- and most importantly drone strikes creating an atmosphere of hatred against pakistani military among tribal people..

i fully agree to Imran khan's stance that we should tell truth to the nation now -- why are we fighting this war? why are we allowing drones coz drones are indeed done with the permission of state...

Economy Crippling -- Cost of War being atleast 3 times more than The aid provided by the US -- and now let me tell you dear sir,this game is 'ENDLESS' it's been a few years now since we started this bullshit -- and the results are quite shocking -- you can't win this battle when incidents like this happen....


[video]http://tune.pk/video/63332/Aik-Pathan-Bhai-ka-Pegham-apni-Pakistan-Army-k-naam[/video]

watch the video and tell me what wrong was done on this patriot's part? now what would he do? you expect him to just stay calm just because PAKISTANI military F-16s raided his house without any offence on his part?

Now before you bring in CIA and RAW's role helping talibans -- think that there must be a reason people get themselves and their lives sold to the intelligence agencies -- and you know very well what the reason might be (above video speaks for itself)

and let me tell you im not pro-taliban -- i oppose certain acts done by these brainless people but the role of pakistani govt and military is also Vile -- i just remember those peace years we had before this war was started!

 

[Secur]

i fully agree to Imran khan's stance that we should tell truth to the nation now -- why are we fighting this war? why are we allowing drones coz drones are indeed done with the permission of state...

@Side-Winder

If burying our eyes in the sand could make everything right , then we should have done that a long time ago , like a lot of people of the radicalized Pakistani society and the politicians even today do . But no , it isn't the solution . What way do you suggest out of this mess since now it is ' our ' war ? Apparently , our losses are more than the ISAF in this war . Stop the army operations , give a free reign to the Taliban and expect them to have mercy on us , is that what we want ? Pakistan never kept its foreign policy balanced since its independence . Please , do not tell me how Musharraf surrendered to the threat of ' being bombed back to stone ago ' , our policy blunders in the 80's of fighting the war of super powers and supporting psychopathic Mujahideen who started fighting within themselves the minute , the infidel Soviets left Afghanistan ensured that the then president of Pakistan was left with no choice , but to comply . He still opted for the lesser of two evils and minimum damage for Pakistan . Because , face it the US have had the power to do so and there's no doubt about their rage and will to punish the terrorists having suffered the losses of thousands of people in the attack on twin towers . After all , unlike that graveyard Afghanistan next door , we have everything to lose . I am no supporter of the Americans , I fully support the ' Pakistan first ' policy , but that is the reality .

I know very well the reason of the majority of my country's problems - radicalization and extremist thought . The extent is astronomical and the result's catastrophic .

@Slav Defence

You asked me a question last night , did you delete it somehow ? Because , I cant seem to find it .

 

[Slav Defence]

@Side-Winder

If burying our eyes in the sand could make everything right , then we should have done that a long time ago , like a lot of people of the radicalized Pakistani society and the politicians even today do . But no , it isn't the solution . What way do you suggest out of this mess since now it is ' our ' war ? Apparently , our losses are more than the ISAF in this war . Stop the army operations , give a free reign to the Taliban and expect them to have mercy on us , is that what we want ? Pakistan never kept its foreign policy balanced since its independence . Please , do not tell me how Musharraf surrendered to the threat of ' being bombed back to stone ago ' , our policy blunders in the 80's of fighting the war of super powers and supporting psychopathic Mujahideen who started fighting within themselves the minute , the infidel Soviets left Afghanistan ensured that the then president of Pakistan was left with no choice , but to comply . He still opted for the lesser of two evils and minimum damage for Pakistan . Because , face it the US have had the power to do so and there's no doubt about their rage and will to punish the terrorists having suffered the losses of thousands of people in the attack on twin towers . After all , unlike that graveyard Afghanistan next door , we have everything to lose . I am no supporter of the Americans , I fully support the ' Pakistan first ' policy , but that is the reality .

I know very well the reason of the majority of my country's problems - radicalization and extremist thought . The extent is astronomical and the result's catastrophic .

@Slav Defence

You asked me a question last night , did you delete it somehow ? Because , I cant seem to find it .

Yes I have deleted it,because we have discussed it already,so I thought that it will be wastage of time for both of us,I felt it unnecessary,as it was somehow,indirectly related to same topic.

 

[Slav Defence]

@Secur...I think that you should analyze this..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/social...rs-letter-malala-yousufzai-6.html#post4538746
post no 81.

 

[Side-Winder]

@Side-Winder

If burying our eyes in the sand could make everything right , then we should have done that a long time ago , like a lot of people of the radicalized Pakistani society and the politicians even today do . But no , it isn't the solution . What way do you suggest out now that it is ' our ' war ? Apparently , our losses are more than the ISAF in this war . Stop the army operations , give a free reign to the Taliban and expect them to have mercy on us , is that what we want ? Please , do not tell me how Musharraf surrendered to the threat of ' being bombed back to stone ago ' , our policy blunders in the 80's of fighting the war of super powers and supporting psychopathic Mujahideen who started fighting within themselves the minute , the infidel Soviets left Afghanistan ensured that the then president of Pakistan was left with no choice , but to comply . He still opted for the lesser of two evils and minimum damage for Pakistan . Because , face it the US have had the power to do so and there's no doubt about their rage and will to punish the terrorists having suffered the losses of thousands of people in the attack on twin towers . After all , unlike that graveyard Afghanistan next door , we have everything to lose . I am no supporter of the Americans , I fully support the ' Pakistan first ' policy , but that is the reality .

I know very well the reason of the majority of my country's problems - radicalization and extremist thought . The extent is astronomical and the result's catastrophic .
@Slav Defence

You asked me a question last night , did you delete it somehow ? Because , I cant seem to find it .

first off,we all have got to admit that we made a blunder by getting ourselves involved in this war on terror...since you ask for the suggestions so dear sir,you have to look for the reasons why the terrorism gragh is still rising -- our Alliance with US is what helps those talibans get the kids prepared for suicide attacks

then drone strikes -- innocent people get killed now they have the right to ask what their military is doing to protect them? then own airforce sometimes being used in bombing own people ( although it's collateral damage ) but that is what ignites the anger and frustation against military and state

How many blasts we used to see before we launched the military operation? the gragh of terrorism never went down...

Stop the army operations , give a free reign to the Taliban and expect them to have mercy on us , is that what we want ?

So what do you want??? keep watching people dying in blasts? in drone strikes? in collateral damage? that will keep the gragh high -- hatred against state being increased and increased and ultimately the the game becomes endless

let me tell you a simply thing -- terrorism is directly propotional to the AID we receive from US and spend three times more on this war --

so let me now tell you what i want -- i want to see politicians and talibans sitting together on table -- govt must apologize for the victims of drone strikes and those who were killed in collateral damage -- because it's the basic resposibility of state to provide protection -- Pakistan must get rid of alliance with US and show some guts like the Iran is doing -- we aren't slaves...

He still opted for the lesser of two evils and minimum damage for Pakistan . Because , face it the US have had the power to do so and there's no doubt about their rage and will to punish the terrorists having suffered the losses of thousands of people in the attack on twin towers

Now this makes some sense -- But i would still say we need to show some guts we are not slaves -- why should we be the partner of US in this war -- yeah i know US would cry that pakistan was safe place for talibans -- so what would the next they do? imposing sanctions? because fighting battle against us was what they could not afford afterall even the afghanistan is giving them bloody nose --

now i see some people accusing CIA of helping talibans -- i would like to ask isn't the same CIA and US giving you AID to fight the battle? what fools paradise we guys are living in -- they make us fight each other and we are fighting like fools...

so all i have got to say is that fighting this war is worse than having being imposed sanctions on us by the US!

 

[Secur]

first off,we all have got to admit that we made a blunder by getting ourselves involved in this war on terror...since you ask for the suggestions so dear sir,you have to look for the reasons why the terrorism gragh is still rising -- our Alliance with US is what helps those talibans get the kids prepared for suicide attacks

then drone strikes -- innocent people get killed now they have the right to ask what their military is doing to protect them? then own airforce sometimes being used in bombing own people ( although it's collateral damage ) but that is what ignites the anger and frustation against military and state

How many blasts we used to see before we launched the military operation? the gragh of terrorism never went down...



So what do you want??? keep watching people dying in blasts? in drone strikes? in collateral damage? that will keep the gragh high -- hatred against state being increased and increased and ultimately the the game becomes endless

let me tell you a simply thing -- terrorism is directly propotional to the AID we receive from US and spend three times more on this war --

so let me now tell you what i want -- i want to see politicians and talibans sitting together on table -- govt must apologize for the victims of drone strikes and those who were killed in collateral damage -- because it's the basic resposibility of state to provide protection -- Pakistan must get rid of alliance with US and show some guts like the Iran is doing -- we aren't slaves...




Now this makes some sense -- But i would still say we need to show some guts we are not slaves -- why should we be the partner of US in this war -- yeah i know US would cry that pakistan was safe place for talibans -- so what would the next they do? imposing sanctions? because fighting battle against us was what they could not afford afterall even the afghanistan is giving them bloody nose --

now i see some people accusing CIA of helping talibans -- i would like to ask isn't the same CIA and US giving you AID to fight the battle? what fools paradise we guys are living in -- they make us fight each other and we are fighting like fools...

so all i have got to say is that fighting this war is worse than having being imposed sanctions on us by the US!

First of all , I must apologize since I wasn't able to do justice to your detailed first post because the KESC engineers were ready to push ' kill switch ' on my area's electricity supply for 3 hours @Slav Defence Mate , it isn't that simple as you make it out to be . First , the war didn't start from '01 technically , just a continuity of the war after the Soviet invasion , you may want to question the Zia's wisdom in engaging the Soviets in Afghanistan . Should we have involved ourselves in a superpower's war and imported a radical version of Islam to create all those freedom fighters who later fought between themselves for influence and power ? Why put the blame on one man and leave the others , even more when that man in question was caught between a devil and deep sea ? Why didn't the Taliban hand over the ' Al Qaeda leaders ' after the US demand despite the repeated calls and intense diplomacy from two of the three nations that recognized their regime ? Why did they opt for the destruction of their already done-with country ? Do you see some rationality behind this ? Nay . At least , Musharraf made a rational choice when he was literally left with ' none ' . It is true that sometimes , we have little or no choice in some matters . Bordering Afghanistan comes with more serious problems than we can imagine . Its because of the Afghan hostility since the beginning towards Pakistan that we chose to support Pashtun-dominated Taliban to route out the anti-Pakistan from that country , not because we like them . But , this is dirty geopolitics everyone plays .

Mate , I would be deluding myself if I think , that the only reason the terrorism is rising is because of the Pakistan's alliance with the Americans , because we have had an alliance with them since the independence . True this is one of the factors but then where do the Taliban ideology come from ? Where does the concept of this ' suicide attacks ' come from , for these so called Muslims ? Why not get to the root cause ? The real culprit here is the severe and I repeat severe radicalization of the society beginning in the 80's . Possibly , the political and military leadership back then didn't have the idea of long term effects of importing a whole modified interpretation of Islam and indoctrinating the society with it . But , today the people do not even know their real enemies , this is a serious ' intellectual crisis ' . Today , my people are more willing to believe in conspiracy theories , but not in ' established facts ' . We are quick and eager to blame the West for each and every problem of ours , without introspecting ourselves .

Actually , we started that operation in 2001 to drive off the militants from our tribal areas . I will agree that the terrorism rate was negligible before then , but then again it brings us back to the first in the flow graph of the war on terror . The Army wasn't mad to just start an operation one day but neither then , it was aware of the repercussions of such a thing . There's a saying that ' abundant caution does no harm ' literally meaning that one can never be too careful . I , personally , do not think that the armed forces preempted this ' new bout of terrorism ' much as they had failed to consider the long term effects of fighting a war in Afghanistan in the 80's . The reason for former was ' delusions of grandeur and leadership of Muslim Ummah ' however for the later it was again being left with ' no choice ' . Either you are with us or against us , remember ?

Actually , the last thing I would ever want is to watch my people die , the economy in ruins and lawlessness and chaos in the society which is a norm today . But what other option is there , than to continue the operations until final and decisive victory ? If you have something in mind , I am all ears . Even today , we have more success in clearing the tribal agencies of terrorists than the ISAF - the combined coalition has ever had . Cleared and terrorists dealt with and life returned to normal , just like Swat . Isn't it encouraging in these times of despair ? The stakes , today are so high that there's no backing off .

Now , let me tell you that , if you are really advocating a dialogue with the people who have killed 50,000 of our countrymen , then you are fooling yourself . We have tried to negotiate with them in the past and failed . Each time , they ask for ceasefire and talks , they are either being hammered hard by the army or need some time to call regroup and call reinforcements from across the border ? Didn't we strike a deal with them in Swat ? Remember the result , how the militants violated the deal , regrouped and continued attacking the forces - beheading some of them during the time of ' ceasefire ' . I will tell you a secret that its easy to reason/negotiate with a normal rational person , but with these psychopaths its a simple no-no and not learning from history . These extremely radicalized and insane barbarians cant be dealt with , on the table . There's only one language , that they understand and that is the language of guns .

Govt already apologizes and pays the victims of collateral damage , I am quite sure that you have heard of tribal militias fighting with their forces against Taliban . Let Pakistan mend its ways , stand of its two tall feet and then talk of breaking alliance with US . Its easier said than done . Emotions mean little in the International arena whilst the ground realities and the condition of a country along with interests account for everything .

Because , Afghanistan has nothing to lose . Please , do not use that example of resilient Afghans , I am pretty much aware of their history of lawlessness , chaos , corruption , war lords , racial factions and suffering people from the last 200 years . The so called ' graveyard of empires ' is a graveyard in itself . Bloody nose ? Do have a look at the condition of a common person in their country and insanity prevailing there . Imposing sanctions is better ? A reality check should suffice .

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...imf-increase-loan-7-3-billion-us-dollars.html

 

[iPhone]

Don't fall for it Malala and her parents. It's a ploy by these scumbags to get you to come back to Pakistan so they can assassinate your child successfully and perhaps even you. Stay in England and don't pay attention to this evil bastards crocodile tears.

 

[root]

Yeah We shouldn't have joined WOT - We should have let America bomb Pakistan to dust like they have done to Afghanistan. Now don't tell me we have nukes..you know America had the power to neutralize our capability in matter of days and stop crying about drone attacks. As long as you allow your land to be misused you will be bombed. Even if you are doing it for the right reasons that you believe you are doing Jihad then have the guts to accepts its consequences..you can't have your cake and eat it too!

 

[Side-Winder]

First of all , I must apologize since I wasn't able to do justice to your detailed first post because the KESC engineers were ready to push ' kill switch ' on my area's electricity supply for 3 hours @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=33663" target="_blank">Slav Defence</a></u> Mate , it isn't that simple as you make it out to be . First , the war didn't start from '01 technically , just a continuity of the war after the Soviet invasion , you may want to question the Zia's wisdom in engaging the Soviets in Afghanistan . Should we have involved ourselves in a superpower's war and imported a radical version of Islam to create all those freedom fighters who later fought between themselves for influence and power ? Why put the blame on one man and leave the others , even more when that man in question was caught between a devil and deep sea ? Why didn't the Taliban hand over the ' Al Qaeda leaders ' after the US demand despite the repeated calls and intense diplomacy from two of the three nations that recognized their regime ? Why did they opt for the destruction of their already done-with country ? Do you see some rationality behind this ? Nay . At least , Musharraf made a rational choice when he was literally left with ' none ' . It is true that sometimes , we have little or no choice in some matters . Bordering Afghanistan comes with more serious problems than we can imagine . Its because of the Afghan hostility since the beginning towards Pakistan that we chose to support Pashtun-dominated Taliban to route out the anti-Pakistan from that country , not because we like them . But , this is dirty geopolitics everyone plays .

Mate , I would be deluding myself if I think , that the only reason the terrorism is rising is because of the Pakistan's alliance with the Americans , because we have had an alliance with them since the independence . True this is one of the factors but then where do the Taliban ideology come from ? Where does the concept of this ' suicide attacks ' come from , for these so called Muslims ? Why not get to the root cause ? The real culprit here is the severe and I repeat severe radicalization of the society beginning in the 80's . Possibly , the political and military leadership back then didn't have the idea of long term effects of importing a whole modified interpretation of Islam and indoctrinating the society with it . But , today the people do not even know their real enemies , this is a serious ' intellectual crisis ' . Today , my people are more willing to believe in conspiracy theories , but not in ' established facts ' . We are quick and eager to blame the West for each and every problem of ours , without introspecting ourselves .

Actually , we started that operation in 2001 to drive off the militants from our tribal areas . I will agree that the terrorism rate was negligible before then , but then again it brings us back to the first in the flow graph of the war on terror . The Army wasn't mad to just start an operation one day but neither then , it was aware of the repercussions of such a thing . There's a saying that ' abundant caution does no harm ' literally meaning that one can never be too careful . I , personally , do not think that the armed forces preempted this ' new bout of terrorism ' much as they had failed to consider the long term effects of fighting a war in Afghanistan in the 80's . The reason for former was ' delusions of grandeur and leadership of Muslim Ummah ' however for the later it was again being left with ' no choice ' . Either you are with us or against us , remember ?

Actually , the last thing I would ever want is to watch my people die , the economy in ruins and lawlessness and chaos in the society which is a norm today . But what other option is there , than to continue the operations until final and decisive victory ? If you have something in mind , I am all ears . Even today , we have more success in clearing the tribal agencies of terrorists than the ISAF - the combined coalition has ever had . Cleared and terrorists dealt with and life returned to normal , just like Swat . Isn't it encouraging in these times of despair ? The stakes , today are so high that there's no backing off .

Now , let me tell you that , if you are really advocating a dialogue with the people who have killed 50,000 of our countrymen , then you are fooling yourself . We have tried to negotiate with them in the past and failed . Each time , they ask for ceasefire and talks , they are either being hammered hard by the army or need some time to call regroup and call reinforcements from across the border ? Didn't we strike a deal with them in Swat ? Remember the result , how the militants violated the deal , regrouped and continued attacking the forces - beheading some of them during the time of ' ceasefire ' . I will tell you a secret that its easy to reason/negotiate with a normal rational person , but with these psychopaths its a simple no-no and not learning from history . These extremely radicalized and insane barbarians cant be dealt with , on the table . There's only one language , that they understand and that is the language of guns .

Govt already apologizes and pays the victims of collateral damage , I am quite sure that you have heard of tribal militias fighting with their forces against Taliban . Let Pakistan mend its ways , stand of its two tall feet and then talk of breaking alliance with US . Its easier said than done . Emotions mean little in the International arena whilst the ground realities and the condition of a country along with interests account for everything .

Because , Afghanistan has nothing to lose . Please , do not use that example of resilient Afghans , I am pretty much aware of their history of lawlessness , chaos , corruption , war lords , racial factions and suffering people from the last 200 years . The so called ' graveyard of empires ' is a graveyard in itself . Bloody nose ? Do have a look at the condition of a common person in their country and insanity prevailing there . Imposing sanctions is better ? A reality check should suffice .

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...imf-increase-loan-7-3-billion-us-dollars.html

fair enough...so what the key points here you bring are:

- Zia made a blunder in 80's by helping the talibans...

Now i can't comment on this whether it was right or wrong -- what would have happened if we had not helped them -- definately russia would have captured the afghanistan -- and what would they do after that in afghanistan...Dont know!

- Musharaf was left with No choice and according to you he made a rational choice..

but here i would say that it would be better for us if we said NO to US! NO to US did not mean we were supporting talibans...i just wanna say why should we be the partners of US in this war? being partner of US is what makes tribal people hate our military...

Mate , I would be deluding myself if I think , that the only reason the terrorism is rising is because of the Pakistan's alliance with the Americans , because we have had an alliance with them since the independence

No it's not the only reason, we have been ally of US since independence but Our people were not victims of US drone strikes before...
and one of the most despicable reasons you missed..

watch again this video

[video]http://tune.pk/video/63332/Aik-Pathan-Bhai-ka-Pegham-apni-Pakistan-Army-k-naam[/video]

Actually , the last thing I would ever want is to watch my people die , the economy in ruins and lawlessness and chaos in the society which is a norm today . But what other option is there , than to continue the operations until final and decisive victory

and you think one day you're gonna end this war? the war is ENDLESS!!!
i have told you the simple formula -- so called 'terrorists' will keep on increasing in number as long as drones dont stop and as long as collateral damage is minimized -- but right now it does not seem to be...See US itself is seeking negotiation with so called terrorists

Now , let me tell you that , if you are really advocating a dialogue with the people who have killed 50,000 of our countrymen , then you are fooling yourself . We have tried to negotiate with them in the past and failed . Each time , they ask for ceasefire and talks , they are either being hammered hard by the army or need some time to call regroup and call reinforcements from across the border ? Didn't we strike a deal with them in Swat ? Remember the result , how the militants violated the deal , regrouped and continued attacking the forces - beheading some of them during the time of ' ceasefire ' . I will tell you a secret that its easy to reason/negotiate with a normal rational person , but with these psychopaths its a simple no-no and not learning from history . These extremely radicalized and insane barbarians cant be dealt with , on the table . There's only one language , that they understand and that is the language of guns

once again see the reasons why they killed 50,000 men...ok let me first ask...who killed them? suicide bombers? why did they kill them? this is because we are the allies of US and when US drones strike the kids get easily brainwashed that since pakistan is an ally so murdering pakistani people is legal -- the families of these kids might be either the victims of drone strikes or collateral damage done by Army -- so that's the sense of revenge..

and viloation of ceasefire you are talking about -- No body knows that actual story -- might be conspiracy theory..couldn't it be? afterall we receive dollars from US..dont we? and US would never want to see us negotiating with talibans because hatefully im saying we have been paid by US to fight this war -- a little harsh reality -- may the curse of GOD be on our rulers

but since the US itself is trying get the hell outta here now after they have learnt that they will never conquer afghanistan..what's problem with us??? why can't we negotiate??

Govt already apologizes and pays the victims of collateral damage

just like the one guy above in the video showing the brutality of our military???

because , Afghanistan has nothing to lose . Please , do not use that example of resilient Afghans , I am pretty much aware of their history of lawlessness , chaos , corruption , war lords , racial factions and suffering people from the last 200 years . The so called ' graveyard of empires ' is a graveyard in itself . Bloody nose ? Do have a look at the condition of a common person in their country and insanity prevailing there . Imposing sanctions is better ? A reality check should suffice .

yep -- afghanistan is like a hell -- a hell burning in itself and the one who tries to adventure here burns too, and sadly we have been linked to this as well --

 

[haviZsultan]

I don't understand why people like to adorn the most evil terrorists with garlands of flowers across their necks.
Terrorists should be hunted down like the cockroaches they are. Instead our people try to paint a soft image of them as if nothing is their fault.

Also what the hell is wrong with the godamn media. Why do they always try to paint a softer image of the Taliban as if they were teddybears and the civilians killed in their attacks vampires.

This news makes international headlines. Why not the fact be recognized that Ataullah who planned the attack on Malala is still roaming free despite over an year after the Malala attack. Why not introduce some law, anything to capture this evil terrorist and Fazlullah the monkey who ordered the attack?

Terrorists should be hunted down. Instead we try to tell people they are noble. How will we win this war when we glare right into the eye of the enemy (which is actually a monster) and see flowers.

To hell with the media. I say it in front of everyone on this site. If given the chance to hunt down commanders and terrorist criminals like Hakimullah Mehsud, Attaullah or Fazlullah I will leave everything and prepare to fight the militants personally.

Also when are we going to realize the militants and the Taliban are a major threat? Pakistanis don't know what their own interests are.

 

[Side-Winder]

@Secur and please sir mind that im not defending here talibans -- im just highlighting the negative role of our govt and military ( which is totally neglected by you guys )
it should not be -- if talibans are ragtags brainless morons then we too aren't doing anyless -- allowing drones and receiving dollars from US and killing own people (though accidentally) is never applaudible to me!!

that's what i had to say -- if you want to go on with your mindset i can't help then...

when even US has come down to option of 'negotiations' why can't we?

 

[Secur]

@Side-Winder

- Zia made a blunder in 80's by helping the talibans...

Now i can't comment on this whether it was right or wrong -- what would have happened if we had not helped them -- definately russia would have captured the afghanistan -- and what would they do after that in afghanistan...Dont know!

First things first , consider this .

The Soviet Union never by its actions and statements indicated that its ultimate aim was to come to warm waters of Pakistan , you are free to prove me wrong here . This was always an assumption which was raised to disproportionate levels by the Americans and the Saudis for their own interests and blindly endorsed by the Pakistani leaders . Why ? Because Moscow only entered Afghanistan to provide some stability to the communist regime which was fast falling apart . Even then , its top commanders repeatedly warned that ' it was an exercise in futility ' and ' all the king's men and all the king's horses ' couldn't fix that country . " We believe it would be a fatal mistake to commit ground troops. If our troops went in, the situation in your country would not improve. On the contrary, it would get worse. Our troops would have to struggle not only with an external aggressor, but with a significant part of your own people. And the people would never forgive such things" &#8212; Alexei Kosygin, the Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers . Similar concerns would be raised by other Soviet leaders " full Soviet intervention "would only play into the hands of our enemies &#8211; both yours and ours " - Leonid Brezhnev, the Soviet head of state . There's another famous one from Gorbachev - then the General Secretary of the Soviet Communist party that " The main reason that there has been no national consolidation so far is that Comrade Karmal is hoping to continue sitting in Kabul with our help ". There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that the Soviets were much reluctant to act in Afghanistan which they believed was a lost cause , can then the Soviets be expected to try to invade Pakistan for warm waters if they would have controlled the situation in Afghanistan ? I , personally , do not think so . An arrangement on the other hand with Islamabad once they consolidated their power in that country for access to ports , is more believable .

Even the fictitious claim that the Soviets wanted to walk in through Afghanistan and Pakistan was a sheer impossibility in military terms. Afghanistan had a pliable collaborationist regime. But Pakistan did not. So militarily; Pakistan was no pushover.

As for the Musharraf part . I have already answered why he couldn't say ' no ' to the Americans because the world , my friend , wasn't/isn't bipolar anymore like in the 80's where you could keep a balanced foreign policy and reap benefits from both factions , something at which Pakistani military and political leadership failed then . So , either we were with the Americans choosing the lesser of the two evils or we were against them in which case we were getting bombed back to stone age and I can assure that the Yanks have had the power to do so . Google the ' Full Spectrum Dominance ' doctrine or the ' B52 ' aircraft

Please , do not tell me how Musharraf surrendered to the threat of ' being bombed back to stone ago ' , our policy blunders in the 80's of fighting the war of super powers and supporting psychopathic Mujahideen who started fighting within themselves the minute , the infidel Soviets left Afghanistan ensured that the then president of Pakistan was left with no choice , but to comply . He still opted for the lesser of two evils and minimum damage for Pakistan . Because , face it the US have had the power to do so and there's no doubt about their rage and will to punish the terrorists having suffered the losses of thousands of people in the attack on twin towers . Musharraf made a rational choice when he was literally left with ' none ' . It is true that sometimes , we have little or no choice in some matters .

 

[Secur]

@Secur and please sir mind that im not defending here talibans -- im just highlighting the negative role of our govt and military ( which is totally neglected by you guys )
it should not be -- if talibans are ragtags brainless morons then we too aren't doing anyless -- allowing drones and receiving dollars from US and killing own people (though accidentally) is never applaudible to me!!

that's what i had to say -- if you want to go on with your mindset i can't help then...

when even US has come down to option of 'negotiations' why can't we?

I know you aren't .

I appreciate being a patriot , though not a blind one .

Continue what you have to say , no worries . What is my mindset however ?

Mate , US can return back to its mainland thousands of KM's away from Afghanistan and remain safe in there , whilst the common Afghans suffer . The American today desperately want to get out of that country and the war , hence the final attempt for a ' face saving ' exit . The Yanks haven't exactly lost but neither have the Afghans won . Should we really do the same thing ? You aren't realizing the extent of radicalization and the dangers of giving concessions to people who have mercilessly killed 50,000 Pakistanis . Do you know what the Swat people had to go through during the brief Taliban rule ?

 

[Side-Winder]

@Side-Winder



First things first , consider this .

The Soviet Union never by its actions and statements indicated that its ultimate aim was to come to warm waters of Pakistan , you are free to prove me wrong here . This was always an assumption which was raised to disproportionate levels by the Americans and the Saudis for their own interests and blindly endorsed by the Pakistani leaders . Why ? Because Moscow only entered Afghanistan to provide some stability to the communist regime which was fast falling apart . Even then , its top commanders repeatedly warned that ' it was an exercise in futility ' and ' all the king's men and all the king's horses ' couldn't fix that country . " We believe it would be a fatal mistake to commit ground troops. If our troops went in, the situation in your country would not improve. On the contrary, it would get worse. Our troops would have to struggle not only with an external aggressor, but with a significant part of your own people. And the people would never forgive such things" &#8212; Alexei Kosygin, the Chairman of the USSR Council of Ministers . Similar concerns would be raised by other Soviet leaders " full Soviet intervention "would only play into the hands of our enemies &#8211; both yours and ours " - Leonid Brezhnev, the Soviet head of state . There's another famous one from Gorbachev - then the General Secretary of the Soviet Communist party that " The main reason that there has been no national consolidation so far is that Comrade Karmal is hoping to continue sitting in Kabul with our help ". There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that the Soviets were much reluctant to act in Afghanistan which they believed was a lost cause , can then the Soviets be expected to try to invade Pakistan for warm waters if they would have controlled the situation in Afghanistan ? I , personally , do not think so . An arrangement on the other hand with Islamabad once they consolidated their power in that country for access to ports , is more believable .

Even the fictitious claim that the Soviets wanted to walk in through Afghanistan and Pakistan was a sheer impossibility in military terms. Afghanistan had a pliable collaborationist regime. But Pakistan did not. So militarily; Pakistan was no pushover.

As for the Musharraf part . I have already answered why he couldn't say ' no ' to the Americans because the world , my friend , wasn't/isn't bipolar anymore like in the 80's where you could keep a balanced foreign policy and reap benefits from both factions , something at which Pakistani military and political leadership failed then . So , either we were with the Americans choosing the lesser of the two evils or we were against them in which case we were getting bombed back to stone age and I can assure that the Yanks have had the power to do so . Google the ' Full Spectrum Dominance ' doctrine or the ' B52 ' aircraft

Please , do not tell me how Musharraf surrendered to the threat of ' being bombed back to stone ago ' , our policy blunders in the 80's of fighting the war of super powers and supporting psychopathic Mujahideen who started fighting within themselves the minute , the infidel Soviets left Afghanistan ensured that the then president of Pakistan was left with no choice , but to comply . He still opted for the lesser of two evils and minimum damage for Pakistan . Because , face it the US have had the power to do so and there's no doubt about their rage and will to punish the terrorists having suffered the losses of thousands of people in the attack on twin towers . Musharraf made a rational choice when he was literally left with ' none ' . It is true that sometimes , we have little or no choice in some matters .

HI,i won't reply to the part regarding soviet union as i already have said i have no solid idea in this case..
But in the musharaf's case -- you said we would have been bombed back to stone age...

NO! you think US while engaging talibans could also wage an international war against us??? NOPE NO WAY IN THE HELL -- WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING AGAINST IRAN? imposing sanctions? the best they can do..

similarly the best americans could do was to impose sanctions -- believe me it was more favourible than fighting this war based on lies and delusions!

Mate , US can return back to its mainland thousands of KM's away from Afghanistan and remain safe in there , whilst the common Afghans suffer . The American today desperately want to get out of that country and the war , hence the final attempt for a ' face saving ' exit . The Yanks haven't exactly lost but neither have the Afghans won . Should we really do the same thing ? You aren't realizing the extent of radicalization and the dangers of giving concessions to people who have mercilessly killed 50,000 Pakistanis . Do you know what the Swat people had to go through during the brief Taliban rule ?

Im just saying even if we continue going on we can't bring an end to this war -- and i bet we can't as long as drones are not stopped and collateral damage is minimized...
so the only way is 'negotiations'

stop the drones,put your military on stand by and we'll see how it goes and i bet it will go better -- but it's impossible since our rulers are not honest in having table talks because they need dollars!!!