Accept Vande Mataram or go to Pakistan

[Balance]

And what do you mean by Muslims should be secular towards non-Muslims (read Hindus in Indian case)


Have the Indian Muslims stopped the Hindus from worshiping their idols? Have they forced recitation of their religious text on Hindus?


Come on you are just beating the bush arround without making any sense.

when your constitution has claimed to be secular towards all Indians then its your responsibility.

There is no question of Muslims should disrespect their religiouse beliefs for you just because your fanatic organisations want that.

That is clearly out of your bounds. You cannot decide that.

It should be and will be decided only by Indian Muslims and GoI. Same goes for other religions.

Nation first, always.

 

[Balance]

In a so-called secualr country when you promissed them secularism then it doent matter whether they are secular or not.

You are bound to fulfill your promise.

BTW Nice try to divert the discussion

it's not a market we are talking about and 'secularism' is not a service India is providing to Muslims as if they have paid for it.

It just reflects your twisted concepts towards societies.

BTW, I was wondering if you work in a technical / commerce field

 

[MilesTogo]

back to topic - how would you classify "singing vande matram" in terms of seriousness of the sin? I understand that there are various degrees of sin in Islam some excusable (like smoking) and some not (like drinking wine).

 

[Trisonics]

The Indian Secularism is non existent for Pakistanis from the time of partition, the notion that an all Muslim country is so much better than to live with Hindus still lead Pakistanis to believe India can't be secular. Let me give you a simple example.

Every morning around 4:40 or 4:45AM we hear "alla hu akbar..alla" (sorry if I didn't get the right) on a loudspeaker. I have not once heard any non Muslim Indian complain. It is such a part of our daily lifes , so mush so that if it didn't happen, we would feel something about "today" is not right. Similarly at around 5am or 6, I hear a suprabatha from a temple over a loud speaker. If this is not secularism tell me what is?

Why should Muslims listen to suprabathas? or why should Hindus or Christians or any non muslim person listen to the morning and evening chant from a mosque?

A very famous church in Bangalore called the "infant Jesus Church" sees more Hindus then Christians visit, if you don't believe me , please check the guest book of the church's site

Infant Jesus Shrine Bangalore, India

India is complex for others and us too, but its the people the make it simple. You guys will never understand it until and unless you live here. For me "Incredible India" is more than just a tourist campaign.
You don't have to take my word and neither will I say we are perfect..when two people, communities from the same faith cant be united how can you expect that between people of different faith but in between all that life goes on happily in India..
vande mataram

 

[Awesome]

In Islam, you just don't bow to anyone... The only time they bow is during prayer, i.e. in reverence to god.

You do not bow to your mothers like Hindus do for ashirwad. Hindus bow to all things of reverence and Muslims specifically are against it since it equates a Godly position to the bowee.

First of all how many Urdu speaking Muslims would know what Vande means? A lot of them won't be saying anything out of bhai-chara... But if you put bhai-chara aside, its well within their rights to not sing it if they choose to.

 

[brahmastra]

In Islam, you just don't bow to anyone... The only time they bow is during prayer, i.e. in reverence to god.

You do not bow to your mothers like Hindus do for ashirwad. Hindus bow to all things of reverence and Muslims specifically are against it since it equates a Godly position to the bowee.

First of all how many Urdu speaking Muslims would know what Vande means? A lot of them won't be saying anything out of bhai-chara... But if you put bhai-chara aside, its well within their rights to not sing it if they choose to.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/38143-accept-vande-mataram-go-pakistan-9.html#post539278

 

[Awesome]

back to topic - how would you classify "singing vande matram" in terms of seriousness of the sin? I understand that there are various degrees of sin in Islam some excusable (like smoking) and some not (like drinking wine).

Hmmm the sin of shirk, any association to God? I've seen it be described as the unforgivable sin - or damn near that.

 

[Awesome]

Haha... One very funny term we're hearing over and over here... "Indian Secularism"

Secularism is secularism. Indian Secularism, Pakistani secularism are just made up excuses for Secularism. For example in Pakistan, the governance is described as "largely secular", that is double speak to hide some draconian theocratic laws. Indian Secularism is more like appeasement or bhai-chara .

Makes no sense and self-defeating to the cause of pure Secularism.

 

[MilesTogo]

Hmmm the sin of shirk, any association to God? I've seen it be described as the unforgivable sin - or damn near that.

What about just listening to "Vande Matram"?

 

[MilesTogo]

Are you allowed bow in front of Quran?

Will you bow, if you are in Japan?

In Islam, you just don't bow to anyone... The only time they bow is during prayer, i.e. in reverence to god.

You do not bow to your mothers like Hindus do for ashirwad. Hindus bow to all things of reverence and Muslims specifically are against it since it equates a Godly position to the bowee.

First of all how many Urdu speaking Muslims would know what Vande means? A lot of them won't be saying anything out of bhai-chara... But if you put bhai-chara aside, its well within their rights to not sing it if they choose to.

 

[Novice09]

Forget about Thackray. Just a normal question why this song which is more an invocation to Hindu goddesses should be made compulsory to be sung in schools????And please spare us of wiki its not an authentic source

And your comments are

In India most of Muslims (my neighbor for sure) don't care about these fatwas. Even Pakistanis are not following their religion rigorously.

They Smoke, they drink alcohol, they do other acts which are considered as sins.

such issues get hype because without them how they (Politicians) could run their business based on corruption and bribery

 

[Khajur]

In Islam, you just don't bow to anyone... The only time they bow is during prayer, i.e. in reverence to god.

You do not bow to your mothers like Hindus do for ashirwad. Hindus bow to all things of reverence and Muslims specifically are against it since it equates a Godly position to the bowee.

First of all how many Urdu speaking Muslims would know what Vande means? A lot of them won't be saying anything out of bhai-chara... But if you put bhai-chara aside, its well within their rights to not sing it if they choose to.

Well,didnt muslims bend down to salute their Sultans and moghul emperors??

Dont u low down ur head for saying Adaab or kiss one's hand and touch it to ur eyes ??

These are done to pay respect to some or out of reverence infront of the monarchs.

Now whats wrong if hindus bowing down , bending down and touching the feet of one's mother or someone else out of respect ...its part of our cultural ...

Infact as i said above every culture has its one styles of paying respect.

 

[toxic_pus]

In Islam, you just don't bow to anyone... The only time they bow is during prayer, i.e. in reverence to god.

You do not bow to your mothers like Hindus do for ashirwad. Hindus bow to all things of reverence and Muslims specifically are against it since it equates a Godly position to the bowee.

You sure about that? It seems that kissing the hands of a scholar or a sultan is sunnah.

I wonder if one's hand can be kissed without bowing. Also the act of kissing the hand is in itself a sign of 'reverence' to somebody who is not exactly a divine being.

First of all how many Urdu speaking Muslims would know what Vande means? A lot of them won't be saying anything out of bhai-chara... But if you put bhai-chara aside, its well within their rights to not sing it if they choose to.

So basically when even if one explains the meaning of the word it is still not acceptable. Even if that explanation is given by muslim scholars, it is still not acceptable.

That is called prejudice. But you already know that, don't you.

 

[skeptic9]

I believe to have seen hundreds of movies on Islamic setups where the safeer etc would bow to the Jahan-panah....I find it very puzzling why a Muslim can bow to a sultan but not to his/her own mother!

And I also think all Indians here understand what Uddhav Thackrey's motive is.

 

[toxic_pus]

Haha... One very funny term we're hearing over and over here... "Indian Secularism"

Secularism is secularism. Indian Secularism, Pakistani secularism are just made up excuses for Secularism. For example in Pakistan, the governance is described as "largely secular", that is double speak to hide some draconian theocratic laws. Indian Secularism is more like appeasement or bhai-chara .

Makes no sense and self-defeating to the cause of pure Secularism.

Although 'secularism' means same everywhere - i.e. state affairs will not be influenced by any religion so that a particular religion doesn't get any undue advantage over all other religions - different countries approach it differently. The US/Indian approach is 'inclusiveness', i.e. the state is equidistant from all religion and will not interfere in individual's practice or propagation of religion or its symbolism. European approach, for example, French secularism, is 'exclusivity', i.e. the state will intervene, in equal proportion to all religions, in matters of religious symbolism, but not in matters of private practice.

Hence, the term 'Indian secularism' is a very valid term, and although it tickles your funny bone in the wrong place, it is still a legitimate way of distinguishing our concept of secularism from the European one.