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A Minister of PTI in touch with PMLN leadership for no confidence motion

For example if they need a certain undesirable party to get fewer seats in Punjab in the next election? Easy... no need to rig, just let another party emerge that will break barelvi vote of that party you want to undermine.
By that yardstick, one might argue that Kanye West announcing a Presidential run is a 'US Establishment' conspiracy to undermine Biden by weaning off younger black voters from Biden therefore giving a struggling Donald Trump a better chance.
Except Sir, as many here would point out, there is no proof of that sort of influence or interference being done as you suggest.
There isn't any 'proof', hence these claims remain theories/hypothesis ... till some point when credible evidence emerges to support them.

Much of what occurs in Pakistani politics has simple explanations - political backstabbing, greed, opposition machinations, media biases etc etc. You don't need an Establishment bogeyman to blame everything on - the Indian's do more than enough of that when it comes to blaming even stray wildlife wondering over the WB or LoC as being an 'ISI conspiracy'.
 
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Sir, You have no idea what you are talking about.
Let me spoon..........Minus one gets momentum when one Cabinet Minister accuse two other Cabinet ministers for pursuing under this endeavor and that cabinet minister is very close to 'friends' everyone knows.
Which cabinet minister? Can you give me a direct quote, not some mamu chachu journalist and their sources?
Secondly, on South Punjab first all political parties have to agree for the make up of Senate as every province have equal votes their. KPK, Baluchistan, Sindh never allow further division of poll to accommodates South Punjab along side western punjab bcz their share of seat would reduce to 1/5 from 1/4 at current. A lot of consensus and understanding needed before even imagine towards this goal, and in current circumstances its impossible.
The parties that refuse to support the creation of a South Punjab province will suffer in the election. That's my point - the PMLN is in a lose-lose situation.

If the province is created the PTI gets the credit and support and if it isn't created the opposition gets the blame and loses support.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/545352-army-stands-behind-me-pm

i believe you should ban the PM for trolling as well then from now on..
Why? He's actually shutting down the trolls that keep speculating about this 'rift' between the Establishment and the PTI.
 
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There isn't any 'proof', hence these claims remain theories/hypothesis ... till some point when credible evidence emerges to support them.

Much of what occurs in Pakistani politics has simple explanations - political backstabbing, greed, opposition machinations, media biases etc etc. You don't need an Establishment bogeyman to blame everything on - the Indian's do more than enough of that when it comes to blaming even stray wildlife wondering over the WB or LoC as being an 'ISI conspiracy'.

Yes, that is exactly why I posted that above. I am quite sure that any evidence will remain conjectural since the standards for credibility remain quite high, and rightly so.
 
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Why? He's actually shutting down the trolls that keep speculating about this 'rift' between the Establishment and the PTI.

He is speculating himself firstly.

Establishment and the Army are not interchangeable terms. I believe even Khan does not get this either.

Also what does PM mean when he says I am The Only Choice, choice for whom?

This is the same Umpire ki Ungli political slogan he used prior to elections as well.

Its not like he is telling this to the people that hey look over 2 years i have rooted out corrupt practices of the government and I am your only choice come elections for a bigger mandate.

Its just kings and their horses and the Army understanding of politics which is what i was pointing out when i said political identity crisis.
 
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Zardari gave this PTI Govt maximum 6 months....remember anyone ?

2 years gone and counting.

3 months after he said that. government lost all sense of governance.

Asif is corrupt because he is wise.

Usnay aysa kuch nhi kaha. And kursi baray kaha tha koi kursi mazboot nhi jab tak Allah ki mrzi main ispar rahon ga.

han han hum sab dervesh mongol badshah hain central asian ke.

aur kuch kehna pasand karenge aap? easy load 2023 tak hua hai apka i know
 
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Which cabinet minister? Can you give me a direct quote, not some mamu chachu journalist and their sources?

All is out there in Open. Its started from Fawad Chaudhry interview to Suhail Warraich and the next day fighting in Cabinet meeting and Fiasal Voda accusing Asad Umar and SMQ for pursuing Minus one in front of all cabinet and PM, search it enlighten yourself and then comment.

The parties that refuse to support the creation of a South Punjab province will suffer in the election. That's my point - the PMLN is in a lose-lose situation.

If the province is created the PTI gets the credit and support and if it isn't created the opposition gets the blame and loses support.

Why? He's actually shutting down the trolls that keep speculating about this 'rift' between the Establishment and the PTI.

Its Political gimmick for everyone.
PMLN is leading Party in South Pujab as well.
Polls thread are all their in this forum on this issue search and learn.
 
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Waisay unkay zimmay ya kam kis na lagaya ha? Talkshows ki jagah koi acha program nhi chala sktay? I think talkshows krta hain kyonki films and dramas banany ki nisbat bahut ziada asan ha yeh bussiness

Its human instinct to propagate.

Also a human right as advocated in constitution of Islamic Republic of Pakistan
 
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All is out there in Open. Its started from Fawad Chaudhry interview to Suhail Warraich and the next day fighting in Cabinet meeting and Fiasal Voda accusing Asad Umar and SMQ for pursuing Minus one in front of all cabinet and PM, search it enlighten yourself and then comment.
I know about Fawad Chaudhry's interview and what he said - he talked about infighting between different factions of the PTI, and he's always been an extremely ambitious player - recall all the hints he was dropping about becoming Punjab Chief Minister before IK selected Buzdar.
Its Political gimmick for everyone.
PMLN is leading Party in South Pujab as well.
Polls thread are all their in this forum on this issue search and learn.
I've seen the Roshan Pakistan polling - most of it is from early 2019 and can hardly be used as a serious gauge of the elections 4 years down the road. How the public perceives the PTI government as having handled COVID-19, the economy, development, corruption, South Punjab etc will all play a role and we'll have to look at a wide variety of polling data much closer to the elections.

The PMLN cannot remain the leading party in South Punjab without supporting a PTI motion to create a South Punjab province. Please remember that once the PTI introduces bills to create a South Punjab province, any objections the opposition brings up, regardless of how well intentioned they may be, will be seen as putting roadblocks in front of the PTI goal to create a South Punjab province. The PMLN loses either way.
 
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He is speculating himself firstly.

Establishment and the Army are not interchangeable terms. I believe even Khan does not get this either.

Also what does PM mean when he says I am The Only Choice, choice for whom?

This is the same Umpire ki Ungli political slogan he used prior to elections as well.

Its not like he is telling this to the people that hey look over 2 years i have rooted out corrupt practices of the government and I am your only choice come elections for a bigger mandate.

Its just kings and their horses and the Army understanding of politics which is what i was pointing out when i said political identity crisis.
Establishment and Army are interchangeable in terms of the political discourse in Pakistan, even though they are technically different. IK knows how to address the average Pakistani.

IK did not use the phrase "I am the only choice".
 
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Except Sir, as many here would point out, there is no proof of that sort of influence or interference being done as you suggest.

True. The burden of proof is always on us the claimants.

I can't give you any evidence unfortunately. Still, it's this reason I am withholding saying some really wild things here. You see it's a balance I've struck, I neither have the ability to produce evidence when it is arrested and kept from public view, nor can I keep completely shtum when I know something for certain, I give myself a little rope here. Wiser people than I have learnt that it's best to keep quiet, I'm not there yet.

In my feeble defence however, I would like to point out that what little I have said that is evidently baseless for the time being, pales in comparison both by nature and scale to that which I have not said, and choose to omit. It'd be best if I also stay quiet until the opportune moment, or the surfacing of enough evidence. So please don't judge me on what I blurt out, only judge me on the silent burdens my words imply but that even I daren't state.

you wish it was true

Upon introspection, you're right. I hope they don't prove me wrong.
 
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I don't see the Establishment withdrawing support. They have no other options

PTI is the best option for them, PPP and PMLN are matured enough now to be a silent pawn like previous.

Additionally, people are selling the Establishment short in terms of thinking that they've already thrown in the towel. This is the same establishment that patiently worked through decades of chaos, death and destruction of the US invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent issues faced by Pakistan without compromising on its perceived national security goals. I don't think you're going to see them back down from supporting Imran Khan after just 2 years knowing the kind of condition the PPP & PMLN had left the country in.

True, but Establishment needs rotation at this moment.
PTI to remain a winning horse for them in the longer run needs to be taken out at the moment.
Not for the love of PPP/PMLN but for PTI intrests alone.

If the ruling coalition does fall apart, this time it won't be because of Establishment machinations, but because of simple politics, where the coalition members will act to save themselves from a perceived 'sinking ship' and protect their interests. If the Establishment does fail at convincing the coalition to stay together, it will do much the same as the other parties - start working on building bridges and repairing relations with the opposition and other political actors to ensure their interests are protected - but it won't be the one to bring the coalition down.

ruling coalition are robots, in this age of robust social media all blame falling on establishment, they need shoulders to put that blame for sometime and then reignites PTI once again.
 
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I don't see the Establishment withdrawing support. They have no other options - the PMLN and the PPP have basically painted themselves as 'anti-Fauj' with their rhetoric. If you thought Nawaz was considered anti Army before, I don't think there's any doubt now.

Additionally, people are selling the Establishment short in terms of thinking that they've already thrown in the towel. This is the same establishment that patiently worked through decades of chaos, death and destruction of the US invasion of Afghanistan and the subsequent issues faced by Pakistan without compromising on its perceived national security goals. I don't think you're going to see them back down from supporting Imran Khan after just 2 years knowing the kind of condition the PPP & PMLN had left the country in.

If the ruling coalition does fall apart, this time it won't be because of Establishment machinations, but because of simple politics, where the coalition members will act to save themselves from a perceived 'sinking ship' and protect their interests. If the Establishment does fail at convincing the coalition to stay together, it will do much the same as the other parties - start working on building bridges and repairing relations with the opposition and other political actors to ensure their interests are protected - but it won't be the one to bring the coalition down.

I agree with some of your assessment, but it seems the status quo can't last. They're also facing a lot of flack from some margins of society for their role in the current status quo. As for the lack of alternatives, while I agree that on the face of it there are none, allow me to present two possible alternatives from their perspective. The first is in house change, same government, new face, IK out, their guy in. IMO favorite for their guy is SMQ, could also be Asad Umer, but I think that this possibility is more remote. The second alternative isn't Nawaz coming back, he's been sidelined, he's too much of a trouble maker. But his brother has shown some real willingness to get back, I can't be sure how good his prospects are, but he's a contender in their books.

So while they have no good options, they do have options. It just remains to be seen how bad things can get, how much pressure they can take. And how much the opposition or the seas themselves manage to rock the boat.

One thing I have thought to hypothesise for sure, and this is only after reading the truth in your post. Perhaps they won't withdraw support without having an alternative already in place and underway. Status quo can't last, but alternative can't be to withdraw completely and let the mess they themselves created cause more problems. What do you think?

He is speculating himself firstly.

Establishment and the Army are not interchangeable terms. I believe even Khan does not get this either.

Also what does PM mean when he says I am The Only Choice, choice for whom?

This is the same Umpire ki Ungli political slogan he used prior to elections as well.

Its not like he is telling this to the people that hey look over 2 years i have rooted out corrupt practices of the government and I am your only choice come elections for a bigger mandate.

Its just kings and their horses and the Army understanding of politics which is what i was pointing out when i said political identity crisis.

Unfortunately for us none of this is concrete evidence of anything. Those who know and understand what he means when he says this. Or what Faisal Vawda means when he brings an army boot and displays it on a news table on TV. Or what Sheikh Rasheed means he says minus 3. Or when Fawad Chaudhry hints at a lack of civilian supremacy. We have no choice but to point to these things.

But for those who aren't convinced, they will quite logically and sanely dismiss our view as conjecture, and find some other convenient or plausible explanation.
 
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