What's new

A forgotten military victory-Siachen

Truth Finder

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
1,353
Reaction score
-3
Country
India
Location
United Kingdom
The Siachen Conflict, sometimes referred to as the Siachen War, is a military conflict between India and Pakistan over the disputed Siachen Glacierregion in Kashmir. The conflict began in 1984 with India's successful Operation Meghdoot during which it gained control of the Siachen Glacier (unoccupied and not demarcated area). India has established control over all of the 70 kilometres (43 mi) long Siachen Glacier and all of its tributary glaciers, as well as the three main passes of the Saltoro Ridge immediately west of the glacier—Sia La, Bilafond La, andGyong La. Pakistan controls the glacial valleys immediately west of the Saltoro Ridge.


Ground situation

In his memoirs, former Pakistani president General Pervez Musharraf states that Pakistan lost almost 900 square miles (2,300 km2) of territory that it claimed.TIME states that the Indian advance captured nearly 1,000 square miles (2,600 km2) of territory claimed by Pakistan.

Further attempts to reclaim positions were launched by Pakistan in 1990, 1995, 1996 and even in early 1999, just prior to the Lahore Summit. The 1995 attack by Pakistan SSG was significant as it resulted in 40 casualties for Pakistan troops without any changes in the positions. An Indian IAF MI-17 helicopter was shot down in 1996.

The Indian army controls all of the 70 kilometres (43 mi) long Siachen Glacier and all of its tributary glaciers, as well as the three main passes of the Saltoro Ridge immediately west of the glacier—Sia La, Bilafond La, and Gyong La—thus holding onto the tactical advantage of high ground.

The Pakistanis control the glacial valley just five kilometers southwest of Gyong La. The Pakistanis have been unable get up to the crest of the Saltoro Ridge, while the Indians cannot come down and abandon their strategic high posts. India uses air power for transportations.

The line between where Indian and Pakistani troops are presently holding onto their respective posts is being increasingly referred to as the Actual Ground Position Line(AGPL)
.

A Pakistani writes:-


Siachen — the facts

The Indian cyber Gog and Magog tell us that India acted in Siachen because Pakistan had plans to occupy the area. Let me reconstruct the story from the account of Lt-Gen Dr M L Chibber (retd), GOC-in-C Northern Command in 1984.

1978, Gen Chibber is DMO: India notices that Pakistan is permitting mountaineering expeditions into the area. (NB: Pakistan had traditionally allowed expeditions west of the imaginary line that extended from NJ9842 “thence north to the glaciers”.)

“We sent a patrol next year and it was confirmed that Japanese expeditions had visited the Siachen Glacier. So routine patrolling started. Similarly routine protest notes used to be exchanged. The problem precipitated on 21st August 1983 when a protest note from Northern Sector Commander of Pakistan was handed over to his counterpart in Kargil stating that Line of Control joins with the Karakoram Pass, also that all the area West of this extended line belongs to Pakistan. When Army Headquarters saw this and also got information that Pakistan [sic] troops had occupied [sic] Bila Fond Pass, they ordered [the] Northern Command to prevent the occupation [sic] of the Glacier area by Pakistan during the mountaineering season in 1984 (italics mine).”

The italics show that Pakistan was not attempting to alter any ground reality. It wasPakistan’s clear understanding that the area, according to the 1972 delineation and demarcation of the LoC, belonged to her. It is a matter of record that all foreign expeditions coming into the area applied for permission from Islamabad, not New Delhi. Gen Chibber’s use of the word “occupation” for the deployment in Bilafond La was therefore inaccurate. That deployment was the result of Indian patrols that had begun to ingress in the area. Beyond this lies realpolitik. The best account of the run-up to the Siachen conflict is by General Jahandad Khan (Pakistan leadership challenges) and is fully corroborated by Gen Chibber (General Chibber spoke about it in May 2000 when he was visiting Pakistan. For his complete interview and detailed excerpt from Gen Khan’s book, seeAn Interview with Padma Bhushan Lt Gen (Retd) Dr M.L Chibber)

The initial deployment at Bilafond La was a 10-day sojourn by an SSG company which was asked to withdraw because the personnel had no equipment to survive when it began snowing in the first week of September. Indian troops, comprising the Ladakh Scouts, had camped in the Siachen area. Seeing Pakistani troops they “left their location in a great hurry abandoning all their rations and tentage”.

Increased Indian patrol activity led to meetings in the GHQ to decide the “plan of action for the summer of 1984 when the Indians were bound to come in greater numbers”. Gen Jahandad realised that “whoever succeeded in occupying the passes first” would be the winner because dislodging him would be almost impossible. As Corps Commander, his assessment to the GHQ was: “Next year (1984), India is most likely to pre-empt the occupation of the main passes of Baltoro Ridge with two-battalion strength for occupation and a third battalion as reserve. It would need another brigade to provide them with logistic support. Maximum helicopter force will have to be utilised for logistic support. Their air force will be available for air cover and also air drop of supplies/equipment.”

He estimated that Pakistan would require a “brigade group with a battalion plus to occupy these passes and the rest of the force to provide relief and logistic support. We would also need maximum porter force to carry supplies and ammunition from Goma to the glacier position. All our helicopters force, both Aloutte and Puma, will have to be mobilised for recce and logistic cover. The PAF has to stand-by to provide air cover. I had also cautioned GHQ that this operation will be very costly in logistic support. Our Military Intelligence must be alerted to keep us informed of all enemy movements beyond Leh to forestall their occupation of the glacier area.” However, at a meeting held in December 1983, General Ziaul Haq thought the operation would be on a limited scale. His assessment of both the “quantum of force required” and “the logistic problem of this operation” was incorrect. The Indians were quicker. We miscalculated the timing of the Indian ingress and also failed to notice a brigade-size movement from Leh in the second half of April 1984. By the time our troops arrived, the Indians had already occupied Gyong La in the south “strategically important because it could interfere with the enemy’s line of logistic support”.

Fact 1: India aggressed. Fact 2: We didn’t plan any presence until India began patrolling the area. Fact 3: Our intelligence failed and our deployment was late.

Lesson: lower the guard and be prepared to face the consequences.



But, India has a totally different version.
 
“thence north to the glaciers” - the diplomats and bureaucrats who were into drafting the agreement copy couldn't have done this any more badly. How difficult would it be to either add the word "geographically North" into the draft or altogether demarcate the ownership of the glacier? For their incompetence, India had to fight yet again in 1984.
 
thence north to the glaciers” - the diplomats and bureaucrats who were into drafting the agreement copy couldn't have done this any more badly. How difficult would it be to either add the word "geographically North" into the draft or altogether demarcate the ownership of the glacier? For their incompetence, India had to fight yet again in 1984.

The term "thence North to the glaciers" entered the picture in the Karachi Agreement in 1949. At that time neither Army could even conceive of occupying and holding onto the Siachen Area and actually even dismissed the notion of doing so. In fact they had tacitly accepted it to be a "No-Man's Land".

The 1980s were very different. Both ambitions and capabilities had grown by then. The value of Siachen in direct terms is little, as no large battles can even be fought there. But now India occupies the heights of the Saltoro Ridge and thus dominates Pakistani held areas below the Ridge and controls the Glacier which is in fact the feed-stock for west flowing rivers.
 
India secretly trained in Antartica and prepared months in advance and sneakily occupied the area. No bravado shown. What was shown was cowardice as it did not have the balls to fight Pakistan openly. But then India was always good at deception. Its in their psyche.
 
The term "thence North to the glaciers" entered the picture in the Karachi Agreement in 1949. At that time neither Army could even conceive of occupying and holding onto the Siachen Area and actually even dismissed the notion of doing so. In fact they had tacitly accepted it to be a "No-Man's Land".

The 1980s were very different. Both ambitions and capabilities had grown by then. The value of Siachen in direct terms is little, as no large battles can even be fought there. But now India occupies the heights of the Saltoro Ridge and thus dominates Pakistani held areas below the Ridge and controls the Glacier which is in fact the feed-stock for west flowing rivers.

Yeah. But a diplomat/bureaucrat ought to know better than to leave a piece of land undemarcated. They had the chance to revise this in 1972, and should have done so. By 1972, India's sour experiences in similar undemarcated terrain w.r.t the Chinese ought to have taught them a lesson. Don't you think so?
 
India secretly trained in Antartica and prepared months in advance and sneakily occupied the area. No bravado shown. What was shown was cowardice as it did not have the balls to fight Pakistan openly. But then India was always good at deception. Its in their psyche.

What absurd statements???
Has it even entered your "cotton-pickin mind", that no pitched battles can even be fought there? The terrain is so harsh that that its hard for men to move, leave alone fight. Then the PA did not even have the capability to deploy troops there; having to climb up the ridge first of all and the PA sorely lacked Helo air-lift capability (which it still does). How on earth could it dream of supporting its tropps there?

Lastly the very basis of your statements (fully butt-hurt as they are) are simply amusing. Its the PA that has resorted to using irregulars, Razakars, lashkars and Mujahidden guys from 1949 to 1965 till date to avoid coming into the open and indulging in warfare!
The "crowning glory" of the PA was in 1999 in Kargil when it dressed its soldiers up in track-suits and Shalwar-Kameezs and sent them to fight. When the soldiers started getting pasted, they diswowned them saying that they were just some lashkars and Mujahidding ; so much so that they did not accept their corpses and the IA soldiers ended up giving them a decent funeral!!
All done by a Country that considered the "Doctrine of Plausible Deniability" to be a basic Commandment of Existence !
Now talk about "Psyche" ??!! :laugh:

Yeah. But a diplomat/bureaucrat ought to know better than to leave a piece of land undemarcated. They had the chance to revise this in 1972, and should have done so. By 1972, India's sour experiences in similar undemarcated terrain w.r.t the Chinese ought to have taught them a lesson. Don't you think so?

You still have not understood what I said. Both Countries considered that terrain to be so inhospitable; that in practical terms they had abandoned it. Neither side had even surveyed that area with any seriousness; so they did not even have a clue as to how it was. Except for some mountaineers usually foreigners; nobody even wanted to go there. Even in the time of the Shimla Agreement, there was no interest there. Plus since there had been no fighting there; there was no LAC/LOC on the ground. It still remained a "No Mans Land".

Luckily for the IA; it had a hand in setting up the Himalayan Mountaineering Institute and a intrepid mountaineer like Col.Narinder 'Bull' Kumar who led an expedition there for the first time. He then returned there several times and got to know the lay of the land. This information was used later in the Op to occupy Siachen.
 
Last edited:
You still have not understood what I said. Both Countries considered that terrain to be so inhospitable; that in practical terms they had abandoned it. Neither side had even surveyed that area with any seriousness; so they did not even have a clue as to how it was. Except for some mountaineers usually foreigners; nobody even wanted to go there. Even in the time of the Shimla Agreement, there was no interest there. Plus since there had been no fighting there; there was no LAC/LOC on the ground. It still remained a "No Mans Land".

Luckily for the IA; it had a hand in setting up the Himalayan Mountaineering Institute and a intrepid mountaineer like Col.Narinder 'Bull' Kumar who led an expedition there for the first time. He then returned there several times and got to know the lay of the land. This information was used later in the Op to occupy Siachen.

Well, didn't the conflict arise after US maps started showing Siachen as part of Pakistan and mountaineers started seeking Pakistan's permission to trek these areas? If that piece of land suddenly became so important at the slightest provocation to India, she ought o have done better than sleep over such glaring lacunae for so long. Just my opinion on it.:)
 
Well, didn't the conflict arise after US maps started showing Siachen as part of Pakistan and mountaineers started seeking Pakistan's permission to trek these areas? If that piece of land suddenly became so important at the slightest provocation to India, she ought o have done better than sleep over such glaring lacunae for so long. Just my opinion on it.:)

Nobody knew that piece of land in either country; but for the fact it had mountains and in any case neither side knew what to do with it, nor did they have the ability to occupy it. Just making an expedition is no big deal but permanent occupation is something else!

About the seeking permission bit on the part of the mountaineers; that was because the mountaneers set up their expeditions from there with Paksitani coolies to carry the loads . So then logically they had ask for permits there.
 
Today marks 32 yrs since a diminutive Khalsa of Gobind, Bana Singh captured the pride of **** Army in Siachen - The Quaid Post, now called Bana Post, earning himself a Param Vir Chakra!
D989SytXkAUs0t3

 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom