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A cultural discussion : Indo-Japanese historical relationship

Well i never knew about that, Azizam ! Perhaps its because of the location? Well has there been close contacts between Tamil and Sinhala people over the thousands of years?
Yes they was close contact and also invasions but well then you can't claim the entire civilisation just because you are situated near it. It's like Chinese claiming Japanese civilisation. The reason for that is because at the time of British empire, Tamils were given a prominent position in the government since the Brits didn't trust locals and they took advantage of that to claim that they have always been ruling us and that we are Tamils who converted to Buddhism. As for the language differences, they claim that we adapted the language some time later. The theory doesn't doesn't make sense at all but it is widely popular among Tamils. Given by that logic, Sinhalese people suddenly converted to Buddhism and adapted a language that was spoken far away from Sri Lanka just for nothing. On one hand they are saying that we are Tamils and then they say that we invaded Tamil land and that they are the original inhabitants. They tend to exaggerate their history for some strange reasons and if you care to search, you can find even crazier theories.

Tamil roots of sanskrit words

This will give you a good taste.
 
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Excellent information, @Atanz , i never knew about this until now. Fascinating.

You might know that Urdu, Punjabi, Baloch, Pashto and Sindhi are spoken in Pakistan. If you look at the Wiki entry on Harappa you will notice Indian languages like Gujrati, Kannada, Tamil and Hindi are listed . Wiki being open source of course get;s subjected to the dispute. Those language entries have been included by the those who argue that Harappa in fact is 'Indian' and we Pakistan are only the 'leaseholders' of the land since Harappa and most of IVC is in Pakistan. It is called Indus Civilization for a reason because of the Indus River in Pakistan.

To put it bluntly they ( Indian's ) claim is that we are renters ( leaseholders ) and they own the intellectuel copyrights to the rich heritage of Indus Basin. The reality is almost all the pivotal events in South Asia happened in Indus Basin/Pakistan. From the first begining of civilization, to Alexander the Great's invasion ( often called India but in fact was Pakistan, as the term India then meant the Indus Basin ) and the subsequent settling of the Bactrian Greeks in Gandhara/north Pakistan around the Taxila area. This led to great Greek-Buddhist Kingdom that left a rich legacy in Pakistan in the ruins of Taxila. My avatar is of Greek King Menander and that is a coin found in the ruins of Gandhara, Taxila, Pakistan.

Anyway this is leaseholder versus copyright claims are cause of so much friction between us and Indian's.

*One of the first statues of Buddha was found in Pakistan in Gandhara, Taxila, Pakistan which is a UNESCO heritage site.

Greco-Buddhist art - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gandhara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sirkap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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@Azizam

This is so funny. So at three opposite points of Asia there is a Tamil connection .....
From the North West in Pakistan
To the South in Sri Lanka
To the North East in Japan
Whats next? Siberia
Weird ....
 
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@Azizam

This is so funny. So at three opposite points of Asia there is a Tamil connection .....
From the North West in Pakistan
To the South in Sri Lanka
To the North East in Japan
Whats next? Siberia
Weird ....
To the South East, Indian ocean, sorry I mean Tamil ocean. Probably there's already a theory for Siberia.
 
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This is great news for us in Pakistan. Can you please tell this to the Indian Tamil's. They are all swamping Pakistan heritage by claiming everything from Indus Basin/Pakistan and this might turn their attention on Japan.
After they start claming Samurai, Sushi, Suzuki as Tamil we might get a break .......

Pakistanis are the true inheritors of all kind civilizations which were present inside the current territory of Islamic republic of Pakistan and no one can question your claims. But Harappan Civilization was not limited to current day Pakistani territory but 40% of it extended to "Republic of India". We are only claiming the part of Harappan Civilization which is inside the territory of present day India. You should be aware of the fact that certain civilizations are not limited one particular country but extends over many.
See this map for yourself. Nearly 40% of it are inside the "present day India". Now here after don't claim any mighty Empires like Mughal which were all Delhi based empires as something related to Pakistan just because some of it's rulers follower Muslim faith.

indusmap.gif

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“The changes brought about by the introduction of rice-paddy cultivation, the use of iron and the loom occurred in the Yayoi Period,” Ohno writes in “Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language.” By analyzing words associated with these practices, he claims that they were introduced by Tamils who traveled the 7,000-odd kilometers from their home to Japan during the Yayoi Period two millenniums ago.
Considering the fact that Ancient Tamil has been in use for nearly 4000 years it is possible that that it had some ( or very little) influence on Japanese language but saying that Tamils traveled some 7000 kms to spread Tamil in Japan is historically inaccurate and not supported by kind of evidence. The Altaic Theory seems more credible and are supported by wide range of evidence.
 
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A. Is there a linguistic link ?


For years I have been watching from the sidelines as the opponents battle it out. For the players this fight will go on and on, and the theater of war is right here.

This is a linguistic war, but it naturally involves archaeology, history, religion and a host of wounded egos. The question to be decided is: What exactly are the origins of the Japanese language?

It has generally been accepted by most scholars that Japanese is an Altaic language, derived from a tongue that originated on the steppes of Asia and migrated in various directions, evolving into Turkish, Mongolian and Korean. Structural similarities among these languages seem to support this.

But there was also migration to Japan from the south, through the islands of the Ryukyu chain. Ryukyuan, in its various forms, is the only language closely related to Japanese. The input from Polynesia into Japanese seems to be evident, particularly in the dominance of vowels and the use of the repetitive plural (yamayama for “mountains,” hitobito for “people,” etc.)

But then Susumu Ohno, a renowned linguist and classicist, came along and popularized the theory that Japanese was overwhelmingly influenced by Dravidian languages, particularly Tamil, brought to these shores some 2,000 years ago during the Yayoi Period (500 B.C. to 300 A.D.), when the Japanese began rice-paddy cultivation.

Ohno made his claim for the predominant influence of Tamil on the Japanese vocabulary nearly 30 years ago. (He was not the first to do this, but soon became the theory’s pre-eminent advocate.) As you can imagine, it was roundly attacked by both traditional Japanese linguists and at least one famous Tamil scholar.

Muneo Tokunaga, the latter, denounced Ohno’s ignorance of Tamil in 1981 and wrote, “I find absolutely no scholarly value in the Ohno theory.”

But Susumu Ohno, now 89 years old, has persisted, last year publishing with Iwanami Shoten his book “Nihongo no Genryu wo Motomete (Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language).” Ohno claims that many common Japanese words come from Tamil. He concentrates on so-called “Yamato kotoba,” or Japanese words that were in use before the introduction of the Chinese writing system. These words, according to Ohno, lend a depth to the emotional culture and the richness of the nonrational sensibility of the Japanese. He states, by quoting relevant cognates, that the following words are originally from Tamil: tanoshii (pleasant); yasashii (gentle); nikoniko (with a smile); tsuya (luster); sabishii (lonely); kanashii (sad); aware (misery); and even the now ubiquitous kawaii (adorable).

That’s a lot of sensibility in anybody’s book.

Ohno further asserts that some Japanese words for colors are borrowed from Tamil. These include the words for red, blue, black and white. Ordinary verbs such as hanasu (talk), iu (say), and sakebu (scream); the words for “thing,” mono and koto; parts of the body such as atama (head), kao (face) and ha (tooth); illnesses such as boke (dementia) — these apparently have similar sounds in Tamil.

Ohno strengthens his argument with comparisons in grammar, pointing to a similar absence of relative pronouns, a likeness in word order and a striking resemblance in the languages’ rhythms.

Now, one can find a host of similarities in totally unrelated languages. This simply attests to the fact that there are only a certain number of sounds that the human being can produce and that syntactic features are bound to overlap.

Russian has neither a definite nor an indefinite article, just like Japanese. This is merely coincidence. And, though I know no Tamil whatsoever, some of Ohno’s examples do appear stretched. I might take the Japanese word for bath, furo, and explain that in ancient times baths were dug into the ground. The English word “furrow” represents this to a T. Again, coincidence. Some of Ohno’s examples are of this variety. For example, he claims that the Japanese dialectal word maru, indicating urination, derives from the Tamil mal, which means the same. The Tamil word for belly button, pot-u, he believes, gave Japanese its heso.

His argument goes further than language.

“The changes brought about by the introduction of rice-paddy cultivation, the use of iron and the loom occurred in the Yayoi Period,” Ohno writes in “Seeking the Origins of the Japanese Language.” By analyzing words associated with these practices, he claims that they were introduced by Tamils who traveled the 7,000-odd kilometers from their home to Japan during the Yayoi Period two millenniums ago.

He brings up various ancient Japanese customs, such as those connected with planting, religious rituals and even nuptial rites. This is where Ohno, an acknowledged expert on Japanese classical literature, is perhaps on the most stable ground. In ancient times, a man courting a woman would visit her home for three days in a row. On the third day, her offering him a rice cake symbolized official recognition of her acceptance. This is referred to in the 11th-century Japanese classic “The Tale of Genji” as mikka no mochi, or “the rice cake on the third day.”

Ohno points to a similar ancient custom that is practiced in regions of India where Dravidian languages are spoken. Again coincidence? Perhaps. Given that there is no way — and there is likely never to be a way — to prove these things, such intriguing coincidence is all one may have to go on.

Words related to religion display similarities in the two languages as well. Kami (god) and agaru (to step up) are two of these. If Ohno is correct, then the popular notion that the kami meaning “god” derives from the kami meaning “above” is wrong.

Ohno does not dispute the influence of Polynesian languages, but places it earlier than that of Tamil. I am not convinced, however, by his thesis that the soft vowels of the Kansai dialect are the result of this South Seas invasion.

One has to admire Susumu Ohno for sticking to his guns. The Tamil-origin theory of Yamato kotoba is not one subscribed to by many scholars. With this book, he has indicated his desire to prove his theory with a feisty insistence.

But, whether Ohno is right or wrong, “the war of the origins” is bound to go on for a long, long time. Linguists love a good fight, and this one is as good as they get. The fact that there may never be an outcome merely adds to the furious excitement and the schadenfreude that experts derive from it.


Was the Japanese language influenced by Tamil? The war goes on | The Japan Times


I call this the "Pakistani Syndrome", where a nation or its people would like to distance themselves with their links from one nation, and play up their links and history with another due to geopolitical issues.
 
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guys.. this is not India vs Pakistan and IVC thread.. Please keep it that way.
 
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@Nihonjin1051

This is great news for us in Pakistan. Can you please tell this to the Indian Tamil's. They are all swamping Pakistan heritage by claiming everything from Indus Basin/Pakistan and this might turn their attention on Japan.

After they start claming Samurai, Sushi, Suzuki as Tamil we might get a break .......
Maybe need to call @levina.

Excellent information, @Atanz , i never knew about this until now. Fascinating.

Beware from Dogs and Conspiracy theories.
 
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well, it is good for both side that one like to produce AV, and another like to R/ape. you two can fulfill each other, the world will be peaceful.
 
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Exchange between Japan and India is said to have begun in the sixth century A.D., when Buddhism was introduced to Japan via the Korean Peninsula. Subsequently, Buddhist priests from India went to Japan, where they spread the Buddhist teachings. Indian culture, filtered through Buddhism, has had a great impact on Japanese culture and thought, and this is the source of the Japanese people's sense of closeness with India.

Direct exchange, however, began only in the Meiji era (1868-1912), when Japan embarked on the process of modernization. From then on, bilateral relations developed around Japanese purchases of cotton. During World War II the Indian nationalist Subhas Chandra Bose, who advocated armed struggle to end the United Kingdom's colonial rule, joined forces with Japan to further Indian independence. Taking over leadership of the Indian National Army in 1943, he and the INA participated in the Imphal Campaign in 1944.

In 1949 Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru of India donated an Indian elephant to the Ueno Zoo, in Tokyo. This brought a ray of light into the lives of the Japanese, who still had not recovered from Japan's World War II defeat. The elephant, named Indira after Nehru's daughter, died of old age in August 1983. Her death was widely covered in the Japanese press and was mourned by many.

India did not join other noncommunist countries in signing the San Francisco Peace Treaty with Japan in September 1951. Instead, it signed a separate peace treaty with Japan in June 1952, which was one of the first treaties Japan signed as an independent country after World War II. India's friendship with Japan after the war helped a great deal when Japan returned to the international arena.

Ever since diplomatic relations between Japan and India were established in 1952 the two countries have enjoyed cordial relations based on trade and economic and technical cooperation. In the postwar period the focus of Japan's economic relations with India switched from the prewar import of cotton to the import of iron ore. Relations developed steadily as Japan's imports of ore and exports of manufactured products increased. Following Japanese Prime Minister Nobusuke Kishi's visit to India in 1957, yen loans to India began in 1958, as the first loan aid extended by Japan. In 1958 Japan participated in the Consortium Meeting of India's creditor countries hosted by the World Bank and embarked on the full-scale assistance to India that has continued to the present. Since fiscal 1986 Japan has been India's largest aid donor.

In recent years, thanks to India's economic liberalization policies, Japanese private-sector economic organizations have dispatched a succession of missions to India. Japanese corporations' interest in India has risen, and private-sector investment has increased dramatically.


The History of Japan-India Cultural Exchange

In the 1950s Japan still restricted overseas travel, but because of India's friendship toward Japan and keen interest in exchange, there was cultural interaction centered on intellectuals and officials from both countries. Among nongovernmental organizations, the International House of Japan (IHJ) played a leading role in cultural and intellectual exchange, inviting a number of prominent Indians to lecture at the IHJ, including Vice-President Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (well known as the author of Indian Philosophy and other works) in 1956 and Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru in 1958. The IHJ also supported the activities of the Japan-based Indian Studies Group, which was engaged in research on modern India. Scholarly exchange took place between this group and the Calcutta-based Indian Statistical Institute, headed by the distinguished statistician Chandra Mahalanobis well known for drawing up India's first 5-year plan.

The Cultural Agreement Between Japan and India was signed in 1956 and took effect the following year. The Japan-India Mixed Cultural Commission, an intergovernmental forum for wide-ranging exchanges of views on cultural exchange, was also established around that time, and has met every few years since then.

On the governmental level, in 1951 India established a scholarship system for overseas students. This system to this day provides an opportunity for young Japanese scholars who today are in the forefront of Indian studies to study in India.

In the 1960s the Japanese economy rapidly recovered, and relations with India came to focus chiefly on economic and technical cooperation provided by Japan. As a result interest in India waned somewhat. When Satyajit Ray's Pather Panchali was shown in Japan, however, it made a deep impression, and other Indian films shown since then have also generated an enthusiastic response.

When the Government of Japan lifted travel restrictions in the 1970s, the number of Japanese going overseas grew dramatically. Although travel to India saw only modest growth, nonspecialists enjoyed increased opportunities to experience India firsthand; the number of young Japanese wandering through India grew, as did the number of people visiting India's ancient Buddhist sites. In addition, a variety of individuals and groups began taking part in exchange activities.

Cultural exchange picked up in the 1980s, with Japanese local governments becoming involved in exchange activities with their Indian counterparts and traditional Indian performing arts being shown in Japan. At their meeting in November 1985 Japan's Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone and India's Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi agreed to hold a Japan Month in four major Indian cities and a Festival of India in major Japanese cities. The array of events planned was the largest-scale cultural-exchange venture ever undertaken by the two countries with the cooperation of both governmental and nongovernmental organizations. The Japan Month was held from October to November 1987. Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi attended the April 1988 opening ceremony of the Festival of India, which continued for about half a year. Events in locales around Japan included performances of Indian classical dance and folk music, an exhibition of modern Indian art, a film festival, an exhibition of Indian architecture, and an exhibition on Rabindranath Tagore. In addition, the play Mahabharata, based on the ancient Indian epic of that name and directed by Peter Brook, was performed by an international cast to acclaim.

A number of special events were held in the two countries in 1992 to commemorate the fortieth anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations. In Japan, these included performances by an Indian dance troupe and an exhibition of Indian folk painting. In India, they included a Japanese film festival and performances of Noh drama.

In January 1993 the Government of Japan sent a cultural mission led by Seizaburo Sato, then a professor at Keio University, to India and four other Southwest Asian countries. After exchanging views with officials of concerned cultural authorities and intellectuals and visiting historical monuments and cultural institutions that could become targets of Japanese cooperation, the mission advised the Government of Japan on the importance of continued cultural exchange and cooperation as well as methods of promoting them. The mission comprised members of the Southwest Asia Forum, a group of intellectuals and opinion leaders set up after Japanese Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu's 1990 tour of Southwest Asia to explore ways of building closer relations with the region's countries.

In January 1994 the Japan Foundation opened an office in New Delhi that is actively engaged in cultural exchange. The Japan Foundation Asia Center is also involved in introducing Indian culture to the Japanese in various ways, such as showing films directed by G. Aravindan of the South Indian state of Kerala. On the governmental level, in January 1996 the Japan-India Mixed Cultural Commission met in New Delhi. Representatives of the two countries engaged in a lively exchange of views on exchange policies in various fields and agreed to promote intellectual exchange in order to foster mutual understanding.

In regard to cultural cooperation, since 1978 Japan has been extending cultural grant aid to research institutes, universities, and cultural faculties to encourage their activities. In addition, through the UNESCO/Japan Trust Fund for Preservation of the World Cultural Heritage, Japan is helping with the preservation and restoration of the Buddhist monuments of Sanchi and Satdhara by sending experts and in other ways.


MOFA: Japan & India
 
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2. You wouldn't get 'Caucasoid' phenotypes from Tamils. In South Asia, the Caucasoid phenotype is most prominent in Pakistan and North India, where people mostly descend from Ayran conquerors, although Bengalis and Sinhalese also have notable Indo-Aryan ancestry. In contrast, there's nothing Caucasoid about the Dravidian Tamils, who have a coal-black complexion darker than sub-Saharan Africans. So that's not an acceptable theory for explaining the Caucasoid appearance of the Jomon people.


Those classifications are beyond stupid.

If you take some darker albinos from eastern India or southern parts, take them and put them in normal cloths, hair styles no one would even look twice. It shows how much skin tone matters.


dpCbSG6.jpg

cUCvCWo.jpg

SN0bBsB.jpg

8RiQMSc.jpg
 
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Those classifications are beyond stupid.

If you take some darker albinos from eastern India or southern parts, take them and put them in normal cloths, hair styles no one would even look twice. It shows how much skin tone matters.


dpCbSG6.jpg

cUCvCWo.jpg

SN0bBsB.jpg

8RiQMSc.jpg


Genetic_relationship_of_Sinhalese_to_other_ethnic_groups_in_a_dendogram.PNG


The point is --- that Tamils are part of the Proto-Cauasoid groups, and are kin to the Bengalis as well as other South Asian ethnic groups. Racially, they are are same. Darker skin tone does not negate their Caucasoid Racial Grouping.
 
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Even Dravidian Albino look Aryan.

Most Indians are Caucasian, by their skull and visage.

article-2111298-120DAD79000005DC-768_636x448.jpg



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