8 lakh Hindus converted every year: VHP general secretary

[Maarkhoor]

That is true, and that goes both ways. From any religion to any other or none.

Yes sure but RSS converting Dalits and poor Muslims by force by waging Ghar wapsi drama which failed miserably.

 

[ayesha.a]

Yes sure but RSS converting Dalits and poor Muslims by force by waging Ghar wapsi drama which failed miserably.

I mentioned "ghar wapasi" in my post before you replied.

Ghar wapasi is also constitutional, as is any conversion to Islam. As long as the choice is voluntary.

I don't know about the success or failure of "ghar wapasi", but they have a right to try. Non-coercively.

If you are willing to have a positive discussion on this, I am more than happy to take it up separately. with evidences. This never directly affected my people, but the Church's brazen meddling in my region and creating pressure groups against Buddhists, Hindus and local spirituality using foreign funding, is a big big problem and has caused problems in my region.

If you have links to websites explaining this issue, please do share. I am interested in reading about it. (To repeat, that's not the issue I was discussing.)

BTW, which is your region?

 

[Tshering22]

How many countries have been sanctioned for not being Christian, by the commision? Since it is entirely made up of Christians, as you point out, they have a Christian agenda - that's what you are implying, right? So which country have they sanctioned unfairly? For advancing Christianity? India? China? Saudi Arabia, where Christians cannot build a church or pray openly?

Please - do tell me.

If none of these countries have been sanctioned, despite the commission being full of christians, then maybe they are not trying to spread christianity?

Miss, you need to understand the nexus that Churches have in India and other similar developing countries with faiths and cultures of the Land (meaning religions/cultures that were indigenous to the country and not imported from Middle East).

The thing is, Churches don't work with sanctions and it would be naive for you to assume that they do so.

And I will be largely covering India and comparative countries for you to understand this better.

It is something like this:

Church ---> NGOs--->Foundations---> Scholarship bodies---> resource-based corporates---> "eminent" scholars---> Sympathetic bodies (usually left/right leanings, depending on the country targeted)

Now this nexus works as an organized structure behind the models of companies/charitable or non-charitable trusts/educational institutions and even orphanages.

Step 1: Identification: organized or non-organized religion.

Step 2: Nature: Open to ideas or fiercely resistant.

Step 3: Fact checks: History of community, response to colonization, details on their geography and resources etc.

Step 4: Mentality: High self-esteem or low; state intervention/control on demographic fabric or not etc.

Step 5: Other discomforts: any regular enemy or not, any internal strife, divisions etc or not.

Step 6: Analysis: approach, resource and manpower data, racial/linguisitic/aware/unaware etc.

The aim is always to infiltrate the charitable and academic institutions through a coordinated acquisition of eminent companies or prominent sectors and 'CSR' bodies. The first place where it begins, than to the colonial heritage of many Asian and African countries, is education. Through conforming to 'international quality standards', local practises are discouraged, calling it rules, regulations etc of that specific institution. (http://www.ndtv.com/telangana-news/11-year-old-girl-punished-in-school-for-wearing-tilak-on-her-birthday-743069)

http://www.ndtv.com/telangana-news/...hool-for-wearing-tilak-on-her-birthday-743069
This is how it starts. Soon the unassuming students consider such local practises as 'backward'.(https://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/amartya-sen-the-ignoble-laureate-sandeep/india-bible-reading/)

Another, to make sure they are not in limelight, they also start doing this:

Gospel Missions of India | Our Mission

Whatever is fiercely resisted as practises, are usually then assimilated into Christianity through influences laws of the land which can be interpreted in multiple ways. Example? Here:

HC permits jallikattu during church festival - Times of India

What is close to the heart, show it as christian benevolence and attempt to assimilate it; what has minimal resistance (read open mindedness), discard it.

According to financial laws and the legal requirements, such organizations are seen as 'service' based and therefore have been exempted from a lot of obligations, which allows them to slip past financial and intelligence scrutiny.

This is called 'hot and cold' strategy which is employed so that the target is not able to see them in a negative limelight.

Believe me there are a lot of things you can see which I may not be able to post here, but if you are truly willing to research with a clear, un-biased and well structured objective, you will find answers.

Separation of church and state means that congress (govt) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.In simpler words, any law promoting or impeding a particular religion, is unconstitutional. That is all it means, and that was one of the most important ideas to evolve in modern times.

What if that same religion is routed through organizations, foundations, trusts and 'charitable' bodies?

There is no law in the USA or in Europe whereby this is restricted. None.

Think bigger, miss. This is deeper than you think. And these are not some obtuse words I am throwing at you. You need to dwell deeper to find it out yourself. It has taken me over 5 years to reach the level of understanding I have (and I have skimmed through reams and reams of data on this, which is beyond the scope of this discussion, to be able to come to this).

The bible belt or the cow belt in India having voting rights, and therefore collective bargaining power, does not in any way undercut the separation of church and state.

Hardly. You need to really understand how these structures operate.

Churches do not operate like how Middle Eastern countries and Muslim bodies do. Believe me; they are worlds apart.

Oh is that so? You know I was talking specifically about the commission for religious freedom. (Because another member specifically asked me about it.) Could you show me any of its reports that discusses how many non believers have been converted? Or any other govt funded report?

There was a report by these idiots 5 years ago, reporting that India's religious freedom was only next to post-war Iraq and Afghanistan.

Google that report. You'll get it, if it is not removed yet. If you can get it through Scribd, try it.

That should tell you what these opportunists are all about.

You base this statement on previous data? Have there been many such instances of "rednecks" blowing people up as "satan's child", for converting? Has there been five such instances? Three? One?

I said about the blowing up as a figure of discussion. Church entities and missionaries don't operate as individuals. For example, an individual conservative christian might call you a heretic or an unbeliever and maybe pass some remarks and leave you. But when Church comes as an entity, it is through a vast network, which is beyond the scope of this discussion as it will be too much to write and will require me to gather all my sources for this research which I have been doing for five years on this specific subject.

Let's keep that for another time.

Maybe if you are willing to go deeper and research on this, you will find an answer and I will be more than happy to help you.

I work as an expeditions organizer and have no scholarly/consulting merits other than gathering related material in this quest. If I can find these things, you will find it even more easily and understand them faster.

Sure, no disagreement on that. But the topic here is the amount of religious freedom in the west and in India, today.
Everybody - hindus or muslims or christians have greater freedom to practice their religion as they see fit, here and in most developed countries in the west.

You will not find a single country that is more free than India (yes, more than USA and UK), which allows you to do everything despite a faith of Land existent here. Can Vatican and Saudi Arabia, the origin lands of their respective religions, allow even a fraction of this?

If your answer is yes, then you have a clear bias.

And as per the law, I am also a minority here in technicality as you seem to be from your name. So please, don't say I am a "Hindu fanatic".

Again: The church's meddling in your region may be true, but that's not my point here. It is not about the openness of christianity versus hinduism I'm talking about, or what missionaries or hindutva groups are up to.

The point is about how much freedom of religion, and seperation of church and state, exists in the west, as opposed to India and many other countries in the east.

All I can say is that you have much work to do about how open Hindu culture is for what it has suffered at the hands of Abrahamic religions.

For measure; let's take France: It calls itself secular, doesn't allow religious symbols in public, but yet interrogates Indian envoys on 'freedom of religion' (read allowing more conversions in India).

One terror attack is all it took for the same 'secular', 'tolerant' and 'open' french authorities to clamp down on dozens of mosques and arrest related people.

Now simply measure this to the scale of violence inflicted by foreign religions on Hindus (and us sister faiths) for generations who despite having the option to revoke equality of foreign religions after independence in 1947, forgot the past and welcomes these same foreign religions to exist and practice and not just practise but also fairly based on merit, reach top-most offices in the country.

If you say that the Hindus are not as open as christianity of the West, then you, lady need a lot more research than asking a committee on so-called religious freedom whether they are free or not.

I hope you take my words with seriousness and pursue this matter seriously.

The reason why I have written so much here (yet avoided writing more solid evidences and instances here as it will consume a lot of space), is because in my region it is a reality which rest of India doesn't know.
Our region is so isolated that our voice is rarely cited in so-called mainstream channels which are a pathetic representation of our country's regions.

And as this problem is increasing, we whether Buddhists like me or Hindus and Sikhs and other non-abrahamic communties like most members here from our country, cannot keep ignoring them just to keep a farce veil of 'secularism'.

The truth has to be spoken out and respected.

If you have links to websites explaining this issue, please do share. I am interested in reading about it. (To repeat, that's not the issue I was discussing.)

BTW, which is your region?

Definitely.

I am from Sikkim and I speak about problems in northeast India vis-a-vis organized foreign religions and their 'work' here.

Mainstream media barely covers anything like this but I'll try to collate and send you research material from online sources.

Please PM me so that we can do away with using this thread and let the discussions here continue.

 

[KN-1]

What happened? Ghar wapsi failed? ulta 800,000 ne apna ghar chor diya

 

[Echo_419]

Miss, you need to understand the nexus that Churches have in India and other similar developing countries with faiths and cultures of the Land (meaning religions/cultures that were indigenous to the country and not imported from Middle East).

The thing is, Churches don't work with sanctions and it would be naive for you to assume that they do so.

And I will be largely covering India and comparative countries for you to understand this better.

It is something like this:

Church ---> NGOs--->Foundations---> Scholarship bodies---> resource-based corporates---> "eminent" scholars---> Sympathetic bodies (usually left/right leanings, depending on the country targeted)

Now this nexus works as an organized structure behind the models of companies/charitable or non-charitable trusts/educational institutions and even orphanages.

Step 1: Identification: organized or non-organized religion.

Step 2: Nature: Open to ideas or fiercely resistant.

Step 3: Fact checks: History of community, response to colonization, details on their geography and resources etc.

Step 4: Mentality: High self-esteem or low; state intervention/control on demographic fabric or not etc.

Step 5: Other discomforts: any regular enemy or not, any internal strife, divisions etc or not.

Step 6: Analysis: approach, resource and manpower data, racial/linguisitic/aware/unaware etc.

The aim is always to infiltrate the charitable and academic institutions through a coordinated acquisition of eminent companies or prominent sectors and 'CSR' bodies. The first place where it begins, than to the colonial heritage of many Asian and African countries, is education. Through conforming to 'international quality standards', local practises are discouraged, calling it rules, regulations etc of that specific institution. (http://www.ndtv.com/telangana-news/11-year-old-girl-punished-in-school-for-wearing-tilak-on-her-birthday-743069)

This is how it starts. Soon the unassuming students consider such local practises as 'backward'.(https://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/amartya-sen-the-ignoble-laureate-sandeep/india-bible-reading/)

Another, to make sure they are not in limelight, they also start doing this:

Gospel Missions of India | Our Mission

Whatever is fiercely resisted as practises, are usually then assimilated into Christianity through influences laws of the land which can be interpreted in multiple ways. Example? Here:

HC permits jallikattu during church festival - Times of India

What is close to the heart, show it as christian benevolence and attempt to assimilate it; what has minimal resistance (read open mindedness), discard it.

According to financial laws and the legal requirements, such organizations are seen as 'service' based and therefore have been exempted from a lot of obligations, which allows them to slip past financial and intelligence scrutiny.

This is called 'hot and cold' strategy which is employed so that the target is not able to see them in a negative limelight.

Believe me there are a lot of things you can see which I may not be able to post here, but if you are truly willing to research with a clear, un-biased and well structured objective, you will find answers.



What if that same religion is routed through organizations, foundations, trusts and 'charitable' bodies?

There is no law in the USA or in Europe whereby this is restricted. None.

Think bigger, miss. This is deeper than you think. And these are not some obtuse words I am throwing at you. You need to dwell deeper to find it out yourself. It has taken me over 5 years to reach the level of understanding I have (and I have skimmed through reams and reams of data on this, which is beyond the scope of this discussion, to be able to come to this).



Hardly. You need to really understand how these structures operate.

Churches do not operate like how Middle Eastern countries and Muslim bodies do. Believe me; they are worlds apart.



There was a report by these idiots 5 years ago, reporting that India's religious freedom was only next to post-war Iraq and Afghanistan.

Google that report. You'll get it, if it is not removed yet. If you can get it through Scribd, try it.

That should tell you what these opportunists are all about.



I said about the blowing up as a figure of discussion. Church entities and missionaries don't operate as individuals. For example, an individual conservative christian might call you a heretic or an unbeliever and maybe pass some remarks and leave you. But when Church comes as an entity, it is through a vast network, which is beyond the scope of this discussion as it will be too much to write and will require me to gather all my sources for this research which I have been doing for five years on this specific subject.

Let's keep that for another time.

Maybe if you are willing to go deeper and research on this, you will find an answer and I will be more than happy to help you.

I work as an expeditions organizer and have no scholarly/consulting merits other than gathering related material in this quest. If I can find these things, you will find it even more easily and understand them faster.




You will not find a single country that is more free than India (yes, more than USA and UK), which allows you to do everything despite a faith of Land existent here. Can Vatican and Saudi Arabia, the origin lands of their respective religions, allow even a fraction of this?

If your answer is yes, then you have a clear bias.

And as per the law, I am also a minority here in technicality as you seem to be from your name. So please, don't say I am a "Hindu fanatic".



All I can say is that you have much work to do about how open Hindu culture is for what it has suffered at the hands of Abrahamic religions.

For measure; let's take France: It calls itself secular, doesn't allow religious symbols in public, but yet interrogates Indian envoys on 'freedom of religion' (read allowing more conversions in India).

One terror attack is all it took for the same 'secular', 'tolerant' and 'open' french authorities to clamp down on dozens of mosques and arrest related people.

Now simply measure this to the scale of violence inflicted by foreign religions on Hindus (and us sister faiths) for generations who despite having the option to revoke equality of foreign religions after independence in 1947, forgot the past and welcomes these same foreign religions to exist and practice and not just practise but also fairly based on merit, reach top-most offices in the country.

If you say that the Hindus are not as open as christianity of the West, then you, lady need a lot more research than asking a committee on so-called religious freedom whether they are free or not.

I hope you take my words with seriousness and pursue this matter seriously.

The reason why I have written so much here (yet avoided writing more solid evidences and instances here as it will consume a lot of space), is because in my region it is a reality which rest of India doesn't know.
Our region is so isolated that our voice is rarely cited in so-called mainstream channels which are a pathetic representation of our country's regions.

And as this problem is increasing, we whether Buddhists like me or Hindus and Sikhs and other non-abrahamic communties like most members here from our country, cannot keep ignoring them just to keep a farce veil of 'secularism'.

The truth has to be spoken out and respected.



Definitely.

I am from Sikkim and I speak about problems in northeast India vis-a-vis organized foreign religions and their 'work' here.

Mainstream media barely covers anything like this but I'll try to collate and send you research material from online sources.

Please PM me so that we can do away with using this thread and let the discussions here continue.

Ignore the idiot MSM,they only report Delhi-Mumbai News