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2nd hand Mirages for Indian Air force

no matter how much pakistanies want IAF to drop LCA altogether fact is they wont and they cant so dream on we will buy what is in owr best interests not PAF's.... got it :azn:

I actually like your current way of procurement as it works best for us plus the money it wastes but I was suggesting above without being biased to PAF Guru g.

I hope you keep things same and Tejas mk-II will enter service after 2020 as it's obvious, now that's me as PAF'er
 
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The Indian Air forces major problem is the less numbers of required Fighter jets and Failed back up plans, as their two Back up plans failed to restore the squadron strength, It looks like IAF plans to re think to look on the Qatari proposal of buying their Mirage 2000-9 fighters, and the Greece also shown interests of sell their Mirage 2000-5 Fleet. as Greece in major problem of no reserve money to run the government.

MiG 21, and Mig 27 is running behind the Schedule of the retired date, they even didn't have the capability of doing single mission in modern combat, IAF plans to retire them by early 2010 or at most 2012, with one major plan and another Back up plan, they almost in Talks with the government to purchase multi role combat Jets since 2000, more than fifteen years still no progress of the Acquisitions, except missing deadlines and Bureaucracy sounds, and another is the LCA Tejas, which is also in same scenario running behind the Schedule.

While some one says, If HAL completes a design and Suggest it to the IAF, the IAF change the requirements and ask for different model. not the entire air frame but some minor changes. ADA again spend one or two years to design new and request the IAF to accept, But meantime , New Technologies were incorporated by foreign enemy air forces as new technologies discovered. so Air force again changes it's requirements and design new one .thus makes the Program delay. But actually it's the history of Invention and emerging threats from foreign air force makes the outdated Fighter not capable to fight against the enemy.





as those two plans are almost dead, The Air force gets a option of spend some $2 billions for fighter Aircrafts, The IAF loves the Mirage very well, it proved well in the Kargil, so they need to upgrade those Mirages into newest standard. meantime they get another proposal from Qatar that they willing sell their mirages to foreign countries, Qatar has some 10+ Mirages 2000 all were upgraded into newest version along new Radar and New Engines. But IAF has only one plans buy the Mirages from Qatar and forget the Upgradation vice versa.

But interestingly the IAF decision makers took a good decision of upgrading the Mirage 2000 platform into most advanced Mirage 200OTH version, but yes the Mirage upgrade is too costly, same for the missile packages, the deal almost went more than $3 billions. and IAF already inducted those Highly upgraded modern Mirages into the IAF fleets. Interesting is the mirages service availability remains more than 80%. means almost all Miarges Ready to fly mode in all times,meantime the Indian made HAL Su 30 MKI service availability somewhere between 50-60 percentage.

As no clear path of Rafale procurement, IAF lost it's hopes over the Rafale's. also the depleting squadron strength also makes huge problems. so they look for second hand planes, earlier many of the defense analysts raised their voice over the same concern and insisted buying some retired F 18 fighters from the US Navy, Thus gives the life to IAF more than 10 years, means some 100 second hand F 18 can easily fill up five full fledged Squadrons, makes sense for depleting squadrons,

But for sake, The Greece is in heavy financial crisis, some western Journalists reports Greece may sell their advanced Mirage 2000 Fleets and stick with the F 16 only, the Greece uses those Mirages very well, the Mirage protected Greece Airspace from intruders and violators, early in 1996 the Greece Mirage 2000 engaged a Turkish F 16 and Shoot it down, later in the 2012 they did the same, again Turkey F 16 violates, The Greek Mirage Shoot it down, Just last week same kind of incident a Turkish F 16 flew near to a Greek controlled Island, within a minutes Greek Miarge 2000 dispatched and Chased the Turkish F 16, But didn't shoot it.

Both Qatari and Greek Mirages are upgraded and modern one, well maintained also combat proven, but which should come in a Handy price of some $7 to $12 million a piece, Qatar has some 10 Miarges and Greece has some 40 Mirages, with the combine price of some $500 millions makes that good deal, and another $500 millions for Ground support equipments and missiles makes the deal very good for stop gap measure.

But the Option is on the Ministry's Table, and they should take care of the IAF proposal.

Life of Soldiers: 2nd hand Mirages for Indian Air force
Old news- the IAF is ONLY interested in procuring some second hand Mirage 2000 trainers to replace the 2 that they lost a few years back, they are not looking to buy a particularly large quantity.


+ everything else about F-16s for the IAF is utter nonsense.
 
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As of today 0900GMT Qatar is not selling it's Mirage 2000's, for the next 12 months at least!
 
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Very good thought We should get second hand mirage as we will hold on to mirages for more 1 1/2 decade. 80% availability is the key point. Economically viable too. 50 more will be great.

EVEN THOUGH IF WE SELECT ANOTHER 90 MMRCA. WE MUST TAKE THIS 50 MIRAGE OFFERS. ALL WE NEED IS TIME. TILL EE DEVELOP OUR Tejas and AMCA

IMO India should have dropped Tejas or M2K ( 1 of them ) and produced / produced the kept platform from both in large numbers by now+ Sukhoi upgrade would've been well underway by now plus the Rafales coming earlier or rather say on time. These three types would have sufficed IAF need if desired numbers were here by now

I dont know why you always say tejas is a failure and India must bunk it? Tejas is our gateway for greater air superiority . Nation without aerospace industries will collapse or end up being used by others
 
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I think IAF is like, "huh we don't use second hand things, not when the world knows about " . (South Asian mentality ) . We only like brand new, fancy things.
 
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Very good thought We should get second hand mirage as we will hold on to mirages for more 1 1/2 decade. 80% availability is the key point. Economically viable too. 50 more will be great.

EVEN THOUGH IF WE SELECT ANOTHER 90 MMRCA. WE MUST TAKE THIS 50 MIRAGE OFFERS. ALL WE NEED IS TIME. TILL EE DEVELOP OUR Tejas and AMCA



I dont know why you always say tejas is a failure and India must bunk it? Tejas is our gateway for greater air superiority . Nation without aerospace industries will collapse or end up being used by others

You aren't ditching it now neither it matters what I say and you took me wrong as GURU DUTT did above.

I was saying that IAF should have chose one single engine platform either M2K or Tejas and dropped the other years ago and believe me it would have been good. Tejas isn't 100% indigenous product so you could've bought production line for M2K, or partnered in with F-16 or Gripen like TAI is doing foe Turkey plus making money from external orders. All this done like 8-9 years ago.

Taken care of the low end of the fleet, Rafale / Eurofighter would be here if things were done properly plus Super Sukhoi upgrade should've been finalized and underway by now with Target of completion around 2020 for both platforms. Things wud've been smooth and really nice&easy with straight forward method and less types.

About Tejas, mk-1 will be mainly used for training and mk-2 isn't coming in next 5-6 years at-least, it's the white elephant only India can afford any other nation wud've thought and decided its future bu now.

Regarding local industry, above options wud've given same benifits as Tejas to the Industry. Even we're producing our Fighter locally but compare the money and time spent on our project and yours
 
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You cannot upgrade a hornet - F/A 18 A/B or C/D to Super Hornet - F/A 18 E/F Completely different airframes.

f18comp.gif

How about Tejas ??

Although there are some airframe and engine difference , can we upgrade Mk1 to Mk2 in a later stage if needed .
 
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How about Tejas ??

Although there are some airframe and engine difference , can we upgrade Mk1 to Mk2 in a later stage if needed .
no, Size of the airframe would be different, engines would be different.

IMO India should have dropped Tejas or M2K ( 1 of them ) and produced / produced the kept platform from both in large numbers by now+ Sukhoi upgrade would've been well underway by now plus the Rafales coming earlier or rather say on time. These three types would have sufficed IAF need if desired numbers were here by now
will not disagree... If we could have gotten IP rights for M2K's there wouldn't be a need for LCA Tejas.
 
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You aren't ditching it now neither it matters what I say and you took me wrong as GURU DUTT did above.

I was saying that IAF should have chose one single engine platform either M2K or Tejas and dropped the other years ago and believe me it would have been good. Tejas isn't 100% indigenous product so you could've bought production line for M2K, or partnered in with F-16 or Gripen like TAI is doing foe Turkey plus making money from external orders. All this done like 8-9 years ago.

Taken care of the low end of the fleet, Rafale / Eurofighter would be here if things were done properly plus Super Sukhoi upgrade should've been finalized and underway by now with Target of completion around 2020 for both platforms. Things wud've been smooth and really nice&easy with straight forward method and less types.

About Tejas, mk-1 will be mainly used for training and mk-2 isn't coming in next 5-6 years at-least, it's the white elephant only India can afford any other nation wud've thought and decided its future bu now.

Regarding local industry, above options wud've given same benifits as Tejas to the Industry. Even we're producing our Fighter locally but compare the money and time spent on our project and yours


My reply is only w.r.t. the underlined part of your post.
There is a basic and essential difference between your aircraft project and the Indian one. In your case all the basic design and development work was done by another (2nd) party while the ground-breaking concepts were done by yet another (3rd) party.

In contrast; the Tejas project had to be done nearly from the ground up; locally. Whether it was D& D for concept, or basic materials.That is precisely where the both the strengths and weaknesses of the Tejas Project lie.
 
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How about used F16's of Israeli airforce, since we would be waging a defensive war on two fronts in worst case scenario. It seems good Idea to maintain the required strength as a stop gap?

F16's are cost effective!

To many platforms will will create a logistical problem & will increase costs
 
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My reply is only w.r.t. the underlined part of your post.
There is a basic and essential difference between your aircraft project and the Indian one. In your case all the basic design and development work was done by another (2nd) party while the ground-breaking concepts were done by yet another (3rd) party.

In contrast; the Tejas project had to be done nearly from the ground up; locally. Whether it was D& D for concept, or basic materials.That is precisely where the both the strengths and weaknesses of the Tejas Project lie.


Very true, but with all the time and money spent plus precious capabilities lagging behind, does is negate the price IAF has and is still paying? In the end you will produce around same number of machines as JFT and no export orders are to be expected. By the time it's done, what will Tejas' R&D data be good for? you will have to make 5th gen. jets yet again with considerable foreign assistance same as now and we too will get or maybe produce locally same class jets.

India should've partnered with one of leading U.S firms from the start. Things would've been different, that too with your local industry objectives met
 
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@IrbiS , wise thoughts. But I would say one thing. "All decisions, good or bad are only in hindsight"

Tejas + kaveri was very ambitious but we tried. No point debating reasons of failure. There could be vested interests, non-cooperation with user, Lack of competence. If it would have been successful in a timely manner, we would be in clouds. May be like our MOM. MOM is great in hindsight but if it was not successful. Probably everyone would say India was sending cheap crap which was bound to fail.

Not so success of Tejas is a lesson learnt for future.
 
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Very true, but with all the time and money spent plus precious capabilities lagging behind, does is negate the price IAF has and is still paying? In the end you will produce around same number of machines as JFT and no export orders are to be expected. By the time it's done, what will Tejas' R&D data be good for? you will have to make 5th gen. jets yet again with considerable foreign assistance same as now and we too will get or maybe produce locally same class jets.

India should've partnered with one of leading U.S firms from the start. Things would've been different, that too with your local industry objectives met


Again on the first part of your post; I will not agree completely. The basic technologies and manufacturing processes have been created which has a spin-off going forward. As for whether export was originally envisaged; no export was envisaged, neither is it likely. If anything at all, the Tejas Project has sanction-proofed India to a greater extent than ever before; even though Tejas itself was hammered badly by sanctions in its infancy stage.

India could not have partnered with any US firm in the early days of Tejas, since that was precisely when post-Pokharan sanctions kicked in, dealing a body-blow that nobody thought could be surmounted. The most serious issues that bedevilled Tejas were else-where.

@MilSpec; this is for you too. Not every program has traversed the Tejas route. For example, in the area of Solid Rocket Propellants and High Energy Materials; erstwhile Tech providers now seek solutions from their collaborators in India. One has to start some place; just as after that one decides and navigates a clearly chosen track. Both need to be looked at.
 
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@IrbiS , wise thoughts. But I would say one thing. "All decisions, good or bad are only in hindsight"

Tejas + kaveri was very ambitious but we tried. No point debating reasons of failure. There could be vested interests, non-cooperation with user, Lack of competence. If it would have been successful in a timely manner, we would be in clouds. May be like our MOM. MOM is great in hindsight but if it was not successful. Probably everyone would say India was sending cheap crap which was bound to fail.

Not so success of Tejas is a lesson learnt for future.

Again on the first part of your post; I will not agree completely. The basic technologies and manufacturing processes have been created which has a spin-off going forward. As for whether export was originally envisaged; no export was envisaged, neither is it likely. If anything at all, the Tejas Project has sanction-proofed India to a greater extent than ever before; even though Tejas itself was hammered badly by sanctions in its infancy stage.

India could not have partnered with any US firm in the early days of Tejas, since that was precisely when post-Pokharan sanctions kicked in, dealing a body-blow that nobody thought could be surmounted. The most serious issues that bedevilled Tejas were else-where.

@MilSpec; this is for you too. Not every program has traversed the Tejas route. For example, in the area of Solid Rocket Propellants and High Energy Materials; erstwhile Tech providers now seek solutions from their collaborators in India. One has to start some place; just as after that one decides and navigates a clearly chosen track. Both need to be looked at.

India/IAF could acheive its goal timely and efficiently but they started heading the wrong way w.r.t tejas even when they knew
 
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India/IAF could acheive its goal timely and efficiently but they started heading the wrong way w.r.t tejas even when they knew

It is not really about ego inasmuch as it is about the kickbacks and the siphoning off of the funds allocated to these projects. Unfortunately it is a third world mentality not restricted to India, namely corruption. What you see as common sense (and which does make common sense indeed) is viewed as atrocious by the powers that be. With the huge budgets allocated to these projects, you can only imagine what is being creamed off here :D
 
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