14 dead in shooting at San Bernardino, Calif., center for disabled; 3 suspects on loose

[VCheng]

Time I paid my respects to Her Majesty ..... Union Jack I guess. True to my word I will request the admin to change my flags ....

@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you.

@Syed.Ali.Haider Request made as pledged.

If you tag someone as an edit, they do not get a notification, Sir.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

as an edit

I am one of those weird people. Just good at one thing - Thank god I got a job that just requires my very restricted experise. Beyond that I am utter incompetent fool. I barely can even use my iphone. So thanks for informing me.

@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you.

This should do it.

 

[VCheng]

I am one of those weird people. Just good at one thing - Thank god I got a job that just requires my very restricted experise. Beyond that I am utter incompetent fool. I barely can even use my iphone. So thanks for informing me.

@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you.

This should do it.

Let's see if PDF can tolerate a blue title without a Pakistani flag.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Let' see if PDF can tolerate a blue title without a Pakistani flag

Actually they can. This forum is very broadminded. When I got TTA status I was badged as "Union Jack". I only changed it later to carry more traction here. Got tired of "nobheads" coming out with "but your not Pakistani". My weakness in Urdu or lack thereof further caused me problems. So I covered it up with the crescent and star.

These a*ssholes don't realise it is the Pakistan diaspora that keeps Pakistan floating. We keep PIA, the banks and millions in employment inside Pakistan. Whilst Pakistani political class and elite plunder and take money abroad we go and invest it in Pakistan.

I give you one example. My dad made his life in UK in the 1960s and did very well economically. In 1990s he got carried away by Pakistan government request for expats to save money in Pakistan in sterling accounts. So he shifted something like £150k back in circa 1996 to one of these so called secure sterling accounts. As a bonus it also put his savings out of the clutches of HMRC.

Came 1998 NS's government froze the accounts and subsequently you could only take the money out in Rs. As the Rupee had had dropped in value my dad took massive loss. It might not have been too bad if as he felt that was price to be paid for the atom bomb tests ( my dad is very patriotic ) but when he found out later that all the powers that be inside Pak let all their cronies and friends to withdraw the money before the accounts were frozen.

Whilst the elite in Pak take their ill gotten gains abroad or invest in real estate in Dubai we fools go to Pak and invest there by building houses etc thus fueling the local economy. We keep PIA flying despite it employing 1,000 people per passenger with only one doing half hearted work or more often then not drunk.

 

[Hyperion]

PDF has a big heart. If it can tolerate you, so can it @Atanz's blue & reds!

Let's see if PDF can tolerate a blue title without a Pakistani flag.

 

[Solomon2]

Read the article it makes no mention of any religious motives.

Neither did I! I pointed out you were cherry-picking the data to get the outcome you wanted.

I know in the Talmud it tells you that you can lie and cheat the goyam, but I'm finding it difficult to accept how two people can MURDER 14 INNOCENT people.

That's uncalled for. It's the equivalent of putting a sign out on their lawn that says, "No evil Muslims or dogs on the grass".

It doesn't make sense! This is wrong and tragic for the families of the victims. Total barbarism. No other word for it!

Oh, so it makes sense that the families who reared their kids who ** magically? ** turned out to be killers automatically deserve your sympathy? Not the families of the victims?

 

[Solomon2]

...The Muslim world (Islamic scholars in particular) need to address the problems inherent in the Hadith. There are some rather depraved hadith in the books, and merely calling them 'un-authentic' or 'less authentic' is no longer acceptable. The Hadith need to be brought in line with the Quran and those hadith that justify violence, murder and prejudice stricken from the books...

Are you so sure that you're right and the Islamic scholars are wrong?

A sermon delivered by popular Saudi Sheikh Muhammad Salih al-Munajjid clearly demonstrates why Western secular relativists and multiculturalists...are incapable of understanding, much less responding to, the logic of Islamic intolerance.​

During his sermon, al-Munajjid said that "some [Muslim] hypocrites" wonder why it is that "we [Muslims] don't permit them [Western people] to build churches, even though they allow mosques to be built." The Saudi sheikh responded by saying that any Muslim who thinks this way is "ignorant" and "...wants to equate between right and wrong, between Islam and kufr [non-Islam], monotheism and shirk [polytheism], and gives to each side equal weight, and wants to compare this with that...Do you equate between right and wrong? Are Zoroastrian fire temples, Jewish temples, Christian churches, monks' monasteries, and Buddhist and Hindu temples, equal to you with the houses of Allah and mosques?...Allah said: 'Whoever desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers'"...

If, as Munajjid points out, a Muslim truly believes that Islam is the only true religion, and that Muhammad is its prophet, why would he allow that which is false (and thus corrupt, cancerous, misleading, etc.) to exist alongside it? Such gestures of "tolerance" would be tantamount to a Muslim who "wants to equate between right and wrong,"...If you truly believe that there is only one religion that leads to paradise and averts damnation, is it not altruistic to share it with humanity, rather than hypocritically maintaining that all religions lead to God and truth? - link​

AM, I urge you not to view my interjection with anger, or the sheik's words with despair, but to ponder that if true they also suggest a way out of the violent hellhole Muslims have been digging for themselves and others.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

When neighbors are on good terms with each other, knowing what is going on in the whole sub-division is easy. You should know that, having lived here, and you know what I am talking about.

I agree with the general point about neighbors knowing each other and hanging out and sharing drinks (not to snoop but just to be good neighbors), but that also depends on lifestyle and whether or not one gets along with their neighbors. At a broad level this makes sense, but I don't see how in the case of this particular couple it would have set off alarm bells.

Are you so sure that you're right and the Islamic scholars are wrong?

The essence of my posts and my calls for moderate Muslims, organizations and governments funding and promoting progressive Islamic Scholars and research into reinterpreting controversial interpretations of the Quran and Hadith is that the current interpretations and ideology promoted and defended by many of the 'traditional' Islamic Scholars is flawed and that these traditional Islamic Scholars need to be challenged and Muslims provided alternate interpretations of the Quran and Hadith.

The sermon you quoted, focusing on the promotion of intolerance within Muslim societies, is just one example of how traditional Islamic Scholars have distorted and manipulated Islam to further their political control and patriarchal and regressive world view.

If, as Munajjid points out, a Muslim truly believes that Islam is the only true religion, and that Muhammad is its prophet, why would he allow that which is false (and thus corrupt, cancerous, misleading, etc.) to exist alongside it? Such gestures of "tolerance" would be tantamount to a Muslim who "wants to equate between right and wrong,"...If you truly believe that there is only one religion that leads to paradise and averts damnation, is it not altruistic to share it with humanity, rather than hypocritically maintaining that all religions lead to God and truth? - link​

Every religion purports to represent the 'one true faith' - the distortion by traditional Islamic Scholars here is in usurping Allah's power to judge, punish and reward in the hereafter as a tool to wield political influence and power in the material world.

@WebMaster I made a pledge to the forum that if the terrorists in California were Pakistani, or were of Pakistani descent I would change my flag. With regret they turned out to be Pakistan thus I am obliged to deliver on the pledge. Can you please change my Pak flag to UK. Thank you.

While changing your flags is certainly your choice, I disagree with the decision and the implication. You're holding Pakistan and all Pakistanis responsible for the acts of two lunatics when many would be reluctant to even hold their immediate families responsible. Farooq's brother appears to be (assuming the current media reports are correct) a decorated US Military veteran, his father an abusive alcoholic and his formative years entirely in the US. Malik appears to have spent her formative years in Saudi Arabia, with reports suggesting that her father too became a hard-line anti-Shia Salafist during his time there.

Until further details regarding their radicalization and motives emerge, holding Pakistan responsible is unfair to say the least. If anything, the fault here is with certain traditional interpretations of Islam and Islamic Scholars - a far more useful move on your part would be to support progressive Islamic movements and scholars, wherever possible, and call for reform and change in Islam from every possible platform.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I still don't understand why you guys are after Indians ? Whatever be our shortcomings, we are not terrorists. Let alone bombing and shooting on the streets of Paris or Sydney or New York in the name of our Hindu gods. Last I heard, there are more Indians abroad than Pakistanis. SO why only Pakistanis get so easily radicalized and not the Hindutva/ RSS extremists whom you guys day in and out proclaim as terrorists?

If at all, 1 man was killed for eating beef andf all Hindus were bad. Whereas in the name of your religion, perhaps daily 1000 people are killed in Iraq, Pakistan, Syria, by Boko Haram/ ISIS and now the new trend.... well off Pakistanis/ Middle eastern killing random Europeans/ Americans.

Why don't Hindutva Indians staying in USA or Paris go on killing people?

Food for thought. But instead of correcting your mistakes, you people are after Indians.

Let it be. Soon the west would look upon you guys more suspiciously than ever before. While in the meantime, you people can keep on fighting with us Idnians.

I'm not 'after Indians', it's 'Indians who are after Pakistan', something that your post here further validates really. How many of my posts were actually directed at Indians on this thread? You chose to pick my one single post, that criticized the rather sick and even 'celebratory' attitude of some Indians on this thread in flagging the Pakistan link, over the plethora of other posts criticizing current blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws in Pakistan as well as the overall need for reform in Islam. You're so caught up in blaming Pakistan that your diatribe bounces between blaming Pakistan, Islam and Muslims, pulling in acts that had nothing to do with Pakistan, and then goes back to blaming Pakistan. The patently dishonest intention being to essentially link Pakistan to everything.

And terrorism in India goes far beyond 'one man killed for eating beef' - terrorism in India involves the tens of thousands killed in violence in the North East, the tens of thousands killed in communal violence across India (including a thousand plus in the riots in Gujarat alone). India has plenty of homegrown terrorists and terrorism, Hindu and Muslim, and has played its own role in supporting terrorism in other countries, such as the LTTE in Sri Lanka, Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan etc.

Do you see Turks, Iranians, Arabs, Chinese or Russians flagging the Pakistan connection with the 'gusto and cheer' that Indian commentators do, on this forum and any other media platform? No - this is an almost exclusively an irrational Indian obsession with Pakistan.

As I said, it's part of the Indian narrative which has gone into hyper-drive under the blossoming bosom of their 56-DD Prime Minister.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What a freaking idiot. If this idiot lives in US then the FBI better keep an eye on him, he can explode any time.

It's because of idiots like him that Al Jazeera America failed so spectacularly.

 

[VCheng]

"Let's not forget that freedom is more powerful than fear, that we have always met challenges - whether war or depression, natural disasters or terrorist attacks - by coming together around our common ideals as one nation, as one people. So long as we stay true to that tradition, I have no doubt America will prevail." - President Obama.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Oh, so it makes sense that the families who reared their kids who ** magically? ** turned out to be killers automatically deserve your sympathy? Not the families of the victims?

Now when did I say that? Step back from your hate filled eyes and read properly. My sympathies are TOTALLY, and COMPLETELY with the 14 innocent victims families who were murdered unjustly.

P.S Don't play politics at the death of innocent people. This is not the time nor the place for you to play your Hasbrara trash!

 

[Aestu]

You're holding Pakistan and all Pakistanis responsible for the acts of two lunatics when many would be reluctant to even hold their immediate families responsible.

Terrorism is an Islamic problem in the same sense gun homicides and hardcore poverty are American problems.

Not all Pakistanis are terrorists, but the basic ideology predominates in Islamic countries and its institutions etc are, if not supported, seen as non-issues compared to various petty quarrels with infidels who barely know Pakistan exists.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Terrorism is an Islamic problem in the same sense gun homicides and hardcore poverty are American problems.

Not all Pakistanis are terrorists, but the basic ideology predominates in Islamic countries and its institutions etc are, if not supported, seen as non-issues compared to various petty quarrels with infidels who barely know Pakistan exists.

I'd suggest you read my previous posts on the thread - I've essentially argued the same thing, that the problem is with the prevalent interpretations of Islam and not with any one particular country (barring the Saudis perhaps because of their funding of extremist scholars and organizations).

The issue isn't isolated to Pakistan - ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab were and are organizations formed and dominated by non-Pakistani 'Muslims'.

 

[Aestu]

I'd suggest you read my previous posts on the thread - I've essentially argued the same thing, that the problem is with the prevalent interpretations of Islam and not with any one particular country (barring the Saudis perhaps because of their funding of extremist scholars and organizations).

The issue isn't isolated to Pakistan - ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab were and are organizations formed and dominated by non-Pakistani 'Muslims'.

I agree with most of what you say, except I think the problem is indeed organic to Islam and manifest in the content of the Quran and the person and methods of Muhammed.