1965 Armoured thrust Which steel beasts won?

[.]

Prologue

Now Before any of the Special Forces come along derail this thread with bumhole logics,Refrain from stupid discussions please,Lets come together as Indian/Pakistanis strip aside Nationalism and decide.
Discuss on this thread,Its amazing how Battle of Austerlitz is pinned here but not a single topic or armored warfare remains that includes any of the wars 1971 included,Yes 1971 was lost but it was lost in the 1970 General elections not in the battle-field.
I choose the title steel beasts(Stahltiere)because that is what German forces used to call their tanks screaming their lungs out during Kursk.
Now we all know that Pakistan smashed the Indian advance at chawinda the largest tank battle since WW-II with a decisive victory thanks to high resilience and excellent leaderships of the men who fought Chawinda which proved to be a final blow as Indians ran out of steam and agreed the UN mandated sieze-fire September 22 thus Ending 1965 war all thanks to Ayub khan's brilliant foreign policy of letting Indians skimmer down the Sinos in 63.

The Patton/Centurion Tank:
Named after Infamous George Patton,The tank seemed to have decent enough sophisticated Juice but lacked overall mobility and armor at hindsight,I remember talking with a US army veteran who told me that "The wars you fought was all about terrain mobility and I don't think that's where you were better at with those tanks plus the Centurion had a far better Gun and armor".
Centurion was a highly rated and proved tank wise choice by Indians paid off holding down Patton's advance and forcing them to succumb heavy losses early in the war.

Now this is where I end and Ask the members to share a Great discussion on this start from end involving armored battles,I need to write on this so Help is appreciatead
@Sarge @Bilal Khan 777 Sir bilal sorry If i tagged you and you don't know anything about tanks
But I tagged my favorite two writers on this forsaken website (Kidding Maybe)

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Not sure, we took pretty bad hits during the initial armoured battles but after Chawinda the tides began to turn. Overall, i'd say India had a slight upperhand.

 

[Signalian]

Pakistan Army tank strength in early september 1965 was:
230 M-47 Patton
202 M-48 Patton
308 M-4 (A1E4/A3E4) Sherman
96 M-24 Chaffee
50 M-36B1 Jackson TD's.

These were distributed in 18 tank regiments. There were 109 M-113 APC's. 7 FF was one of the units operating M-113 APC. All M-48's had night fighting capability.

1st Armoured Division had following units.
4th Armoured Brigade:
4th Cavalry , 5th Horse, 10 FF
5th Armoured Brigade
6 Lancers, 24 Cavalry, 1 FF
Artillery Brigade:
3 Field Arty, 15 Field Arty, 16 Field Arty, all had 105mm guns
whereas 21 Medium Arty had 155mm guns.

12 Cavalry as Recon Regiment.
19 SP AD

The 1st Armoured Division retreated with loss of 97 tanks while destroying 10 Indian tanks and was shifted towards North to reinforce Sialkot Sector. 72 of losses were Pattons.


100 Indp Armoured Brigade Group (6th Armoured Div) had following units:
10 Cavalry(Guides), 11 Cavalry, 22 Cavalry, 9 FF, 1st SP Arty Regt. All the 3 armoured regiments had M-48's.

25 cavalry which played an important part also used M-48's.

6th Armoured Div and 25 Cavalry lost 61 tanks while destroying 180 Indian tanks. The Pakistani losses were 31 M-48, 17 M-47, 4 M-4 Sherman and 9 M-36 Jackson. Majority of Indian losses were Centurians of 17th and 4 Horse.


Indian Army tank strength in early september 1965:
186 Centurian Mk7
308 M-4 Sherman
90 AMX-13
PT-76, 45 were used in last days of war by 7th light Cavalry.

14 out of 16 Armoured regiments were involved in war.

1st Armoured Division had following units:
1st Armoured Brigade:
4th Horse, 17th Horse, 16th Light Cavalry, all had centurian tank. 9 Dogra was infantry.
43 Lorry Brigade:
5/9 Gurkha Rifles, 5 Jat, 8 Gakharwal Rifles. They used 4 Ton trucks for transport.
Artillery Brigade:
1st SP Arty, 1st field Arty, 1st Medium Arty.

Also included.
2 Lancers (M-4 Sherman)
62 Cavalry (M-4 Sherman)
1st Light AD.


2nd Indp Armoured Brigade:
3 Cavalry (Centurian), 8 Light Cavalry (AMX-13)

 

[.]

The 1st Armoured Division retreated with loss of 97 tanks while destroying 10 Indian tanks and was shifted towards North to reinforce Sialkot Sector. 72 of losses were Pattons.


6th Armoured Div and 25 Cavalry lost 61 tanks while destroying 180 Indian tanks. The Pakistani losses were 31 M-48, 17 M-47, 4 M-4 Sherman and 9 M-36 Jackson. Majority of Indian losses were Centurians of 17th and 4 Horse.

I've read about those losses before,the 97 Pattons were Patton 48?How did we lost such many?
If they were patton 48 I guess the Idea was right and it just got screwed up

 

[Signalian]

Yaar how many armored encounters took place?

The two main ones were Khem Karan/Assal Utar and Battle of Chawinda.

Do you know about any first encounter details?

If Grand slam is not included then on 7th September 1965, PA 1st Armoured Div attacked Khem Karan along with PA 11 Infantry div and met with Indian 4 Infantry(mountain) Div supported by IA 2nd Armoured brigade.

Any book you read on this?

David R Higgins, Patton vs Centurion.

 

[Jugger]

Its obvious that the centurion had the upperhand in this war. They were able to stop the invasion of patton tanks effectively.

 

[Signalian]

I've read about those losses before,the 97 Pattons were Patton 48?

72 were Pattons.

How did we lost such many?

The attack was succeeding at first but usually 2-3 units were attacking at one time due to mis-coordination at senior level. Its also true that at first Indians were scared of Pattons but slowly that fright ceased to exist.

1. Attacking an entrenched enemy again and again where minefields were placed and replaced thrice by Indians.
2. The area favoured defenders due to its geography and tall sugar cane and crops helped Indians conceal tanks asw ell as RR guns.
3. Pakistani tanks didnt wait for infantry and started tank attack without it. The PA infantry was busy in sweeping the area of stragglers and resistance pockets which were left as the Indians retreated from khem karan.
4. IA had lesser tanks but lots of infantry. IA utilised its infantry forces very well. They had RR's, mortars, bazookas etc. Infact day by day their reinforcements kept coming and the sector defences stronger and stronger.

If they were patton 48 I guess the Idea was right and it just got screwed up

PA tanks should have changed attack direction and routes and main force should have flanked IA entrenched forces from left (Pakistani border side) . Infact just one armoured regiment, 4 Cavalry, tried flanking while main force kept advancing head-on.

Red is Pakistan. Blue is India.

From left:
PA 4 Cavalry is attacking IA 3 Cavalry.
4 cavalry was supposed to be supported by 10 FF but there is no coordination and 10 FF loses its way and makes a u-turn.4 Cavalry ran out of ammunition and petrol and contact with it was lost too so its couldnt be replenished.

The idea was good of using tank-infantry combination but implementation went wrong.

From Right:
PA 6 lancers attacked and captured Valtoha railway station. 6 lancers had no infantry attached with it to hold ground and build defences. 6 lancers had to be called back to khem Karan, another lost opportunity. The tanks couldnt go forward to attack Indian Artillery without infantry support.

Centre:
PA 24 cavalry and 5 Horse attacked well defended positions. 1 FF was in APC's, it struck minefield and had to withdraw as it couldnt keep up pace with tanks.

Later, a night attack was resumed by PA 4 cavalry and 5 Horse as Pattons had night fighting capability but without infantry support, the attack again stalled. The final attack was on 10th september which resulted in major PA tank loss. The IA Deccan Horse was forced to fight at night because of this, but its tanks well entrenched and were used as anti-tank guns role. This unit was organised in horse shoe U styled deployment to stop PA tanks. The Indian Artillery was very effective too.

Its obvious that the centurion had the upperhand in this war. They were able to stop the invasion of patton tanks effectively.

The same Centurion lost the upper hand when facing Pattons in Sialkot.

PA 25 Cavalry's Pattons ripped apart Centurions and halted an attack of an entire Indian Armoured Division.

 

[.]

72 were Pattons.



The attack was succeeding at first but usually 2-3 units were attacking at one time due to mis-coordination at senior level. Its also true that at first Indians were scared of Pattons but slowly that fright ceased to exist.

1. Attacking an entrenched enemy again and again where minefields were placed and replaced thrice by Indians.
2. The area favoured defenders due to its geography and tall sugar cane and crops helped Indians conceal tanks asw ell as RR guns.
3. Pakistani tanks didnt wait for infantry and started tank attack without it. The PA infantry was busy in sweeping the area of stragglers and resistance pockets which were left as the Indians retreated from khem karan.
4. IA had lesser tanks but lots of infantry. IA utilised its infantry forces very well. They had RR's, mortars, bazookas etc. Infact day by day their reinforcements kept coming and the sector defences stronger and stronger.



PA tanks should have changed attack direction and routes and main force should have flanked IA entrenched forces from left (Pakistani border side) . Infact just one armoured regiment, 4 Cavalry, tried flanking while main force kept advancing head-on.

View attachment 353586

Red is Pakistan. Blue is India.

From left:
PA 4 Cavalry is attacking IA 3 Cavalry.
4 cavalry was supposed to be supported by 10 FF but there is no coordination and 10 FF loses its way and makes a u-turn.4 Cavalry ran out of ammunition and petrol and contact with it was lost too so its couldnt be replenished.

The idea was good of using tank-infantry combination but implementation went wrong.

From Right:
PA 6 lancers attacked and captured Valtoha railway station. 6 lancers had no infantry attached with it to hold ground and build defences. 6 lancers had to be called back to khem Karan, another lost opportunity. The tanks couldnt go forward to attack Indian Artillery without infantry support.

Centre:
PA 24 cavalry and 5 Horse attacked well defended positions. 1 FF was in APC's, it struck minefield and had to withdraw as it couldnt keep up pace with tanks.

Later, a night attack was resumed by PA 4 cavalry and 5 Horse as Pattons had night fighting capability but without infantry support, the attack again stalled. The final attack was on 10th september which resulted in major PA tank loss. The IA Deccan Horse was forced to fight at night because of this, but its tanks well entrenched and were used as anti-tank guns role. This unit was organised in horse shoe U styled deployment to stop PA tanks. The Indian Artillery was very effective too.


The same Centurion lost the upper hand when facing Pattons in Sialkot.

PA 25 Cavalry's Pattons ripped apart Centurions and halted an attack of an entire Indian Armoured Division.

Fascinating ,Thanks Sarge,did you wrote this as primary source from the higgins book or you read more books on the armored front?

 

[Signalian]

Fascinating ,Thanks Sarge,did you wrote this as primary source from the higgins book or you read more books on the armored front?

I found Higgins siding with Indians. He sides Indians at times and mentions Pakistan as enemy when mentioning Pakistani forces. I read Defence Journal also.

For Chawinda war, i found an official version of Pakistan Army but its too much information in one picture.

I can break down the information in it, if you want.

I have attached a PDF version too which is more clear to zoom in.

 

[.]

I found Higgins siding with Indians. He sides Indians at times and mentions Pakistan as enemy when mentioning Pakistani forces. I read Defence Journal also.

For Chawinda war, i found an official version of Pakistan Army but its too much information in one picture.

I can break down the information in it, if you want.
View attachment 353598


I have attached a PDF version too which is more clear to zoom in.

Trust me ,I've done worse breaking done being a student of Cambridge A levels Orgo Chemistry .lol
I know what the pictures sayin Thanks

 

[Signalian]

Trust me ,I've done worse breaking done being a student of Cambridge A levels Orgo Chemistry .lol
I know what the pictures sayin Thanks

Ok mate, good luck with your write up.

 

[.]

Ok mate, good luck with your write up.

Thanks

 

[Signalian]

Thanks

Mate, you are sorely missed.

 

[Jugger]

Mate, you are sorely missed.

When the quality of posters and posts go down, then this happens.
All the nice people worth talking to leave.
Foul language and personal insults should never be tolerated by the mods.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

The two main ones were Khem Karan/Assal Utar

we won in the khem karan didnt we?