What's new

Rail Battle Between China and Japan Rushes At High Speed

Japanese service and spare parts are way too expensive and since those products are not mass produced like the case in China, that even pushes the price tags for everything prohibitively higher. all the bills will eventually go to Indian passengers, but that's no our concern, I m pretty sure that first HSR in Pakistan will be made in China.
 
Japanese service and spare parts are way too expensive, and since those products are not mass produced like the case in China, that even pushes the price tags for everything prohibitively higher. all the bills will eventually go to Indian passengers, but that's no our care, I m pretty sure that first HSR in Pakistan will be made in China.
Building a railway is only the start, and quite often the easiest part.
A bullet train will be examined every 2000-3000km, think about the maintenance fee and money for purchasing trains.
And India for the moment lacks real railway engineers, to say nothing of the bullet train engineers.
 
poor cow my foot , china has equivalent number of poor as Bharat has , but the press and media in Bharat is 100% transparent which is not the case with china , every news is propaganda FOR CHINESE GOVERNMENT ( and they are best in the world at chest thumping even if the economy is fulled with fake GDP growth thanks to massive waste infrastructure development regardless the state debts in trillions (there are ample of such data on google though understated too by chinese government ) . tell you something self proclaimed rich3itch , dont forget paper economy of china is export oriented and domestic consumption is not as strong as goods manufactured in petty factories full of slave labor , so demand has to come from the outside : the point caters your bull$hit assumption that china is not dependent on huge consumer based economies like Bharat . NOW ON TOPIC : japnese technology is the best in the world viz-a-viz trains are concerned and we are happy china is ignored as would be the state policy now .

China has over 100 mn living below poverty line - Rediff.com Business

What a comparison between China and India !!
by piri (View MyPage) on Jun 21, 2012 10:20 PM | Hide replies

The world bank has estimated the number of poor in China to be 150 million, i.e., about 11 % of the population. And the world bank used the cut off of $ 1.25 per day (about Rs. 68/-) per capita income to arrive at this figure.

By contrast, India’s planning commission has ‘declared’ the percentage of poor in India to be about 28 % with a minimum cut off per capita daily income of Rs. 18/- per day in urban areas and Rs. 13/- per day in rural areas !

In other words, India’s poor in the urban areas are about 4 TIMES as poor and those in the rural areas are 5 TIMES as poor as the Chinese poor !!!

And despite having such pitiable cut-offs, the proportion of India’s poor is about 2.5 times that in China !!

What a gigantic contrast !!!

And middle class commoner dunces in India continue to mutter India and China in the same breath and equate India with China at every turn !
——————
Poverty can be calculated on the base of No of Mobile Users and n
by Loga (View MyPage) on Jun 21, 2012 07:14 PM | Hide replies

Poverty can be calculated on the base of No of Mobile Users and no of homes now have TV sets in India. India has more then 900 million of Mobile users in the world 2nd highest after China. Out of every 100 Indian 70 are using Mobile phone.Even a beggar in the street is holding Mobile Phone in India and 70 per cent of homes now have TV sets.

Re: Poverty can be calculated on the base of No of Mobile Users a
by salesjb (View MyPage) on Jun 21, 2012 08:02 PM
loga if you have a brain then use it
1. A durable mobile cost Rs 1000, invest for once.
2.no. of connection doest not convert with mobile handset. I have 5 numbers with me and only 2 handset. a simcard cost nothing ,

China Vs. India
by arungopal agarwal (View MyPage) on Jun 21, 2012 04:41 PM | Hide replies

In India, we have about 600 million below poverty line. What is base line of China, not mentioned above, in India govt. considers base line Rs.30 per day or so. Still no one feels shame.
 
China has over 100 mn living below poverty line - Rediff.com Business

What a comparison between China and India !!
by piri (View MyPage) on Jun 21, 2012 10:20 PM | Hide replies

The world bank has estimated the number of poor in China to be 150 million, i.e., about 11 % of the population. And the world bank used the cut off of $ 1.25 per day (about Rs. 68/-) per capita income to arrive at this figure.

By contrast, India’s planning commission has ‘declared’ the percentage of poor in India to be about 28 % with a minimum cut off per capita daily income of Rs. 18/- per day in urban areas and Rs. 13/- per day in rural areas !

In other words, India’s poor in the urban areas are about 4 TIMES as poor and those in the rural areas are 5 TIMES as poor as the Chinese poor !!!

And despite having such pitiable cut-offs, the proportion of India’s poor is about 2.5 times that in China !!

What a gigantic contrast !!!

And middle class commoner dunces in India continue to mutter India and China in the same breath and equate India with China at every turn !
Don't try to argue with the moron.
India today is nowhere close to China's inclusive growth level in 1980s.
 
One thing I find curious about the Japanese is the would consider themselves superior to every Asian race race but inferior to the White race no matter if 1000 years into the future. China on the other hand doesn't consider themself inferior to anyone. The Chinese mentality is they just need a little time to get there. This is why I respect the Chinese mentality more. If you're going for grandeur, might as well go straight to the top rather than stop at the third rung...

Plus, the Japanese never think things thru. They just act on impulse. They never thought bombing their oil containers would cause a cease to their expansionist empire regime.

The Japanese are like we're going to invent high speed trains, and then what? I dunno.

Meanwhile, China is like we're going to buy Shinkansen thru Taiwan, "borrow" their technology, and then sell it!

Yes, this is one of the areas in which I see Japanese below Vietnamese.

In the work, we Vietnamese respect Japanese, but treat all others with a little contempt and superior complex, American included (not all Vietnamese, especially in the South of Vietnam, are like that, but it is my general observation within my organization in Hanoi). In the meantime, Japanese seems to act as if they are inferior to the US (maybe not all white). I think, the loss in WWII and dependence on the US for military in last 70 years affected them too mụch.
 
China's time tested best ability is to make exclusively high end products inclusively affordable by the general public.

Meanwhile Japan's specialty lies in producing overpriced items no reasonably sane person/corporation is willing to buy.

Japan's other venture in automobiles is doomed before it even began. They think ppl want to fork out the cash to build those expensive hydrogen fuel cell infrastructures when China's electric vehicles will have done the same job for less!

Btw, the Japanese media even took a jab at China. They think electric vehicles is the easier of the two technologies (superiority complex) so their car industry will head towards hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Real stupid if you ask me. Economics doesn't work on "harder technology" but the more affordable one.
 
Last edited:
lol, u should ask a Taiwanese if this project is successful or not, instead of listening to Japanese company.
The ridership is less than expected, and the ticket is overpriced.
And subsequent fee for maintenance is wooooooooooo.

You have a link for that claim ?

I'm doubting Indians' purchasing power.
Their middle class(real middle class) is too small for high-speed rail.
View attachment 281282
View attachment 281283

By 2023 we will have a comparatively better middle class


Also yes I am talking about the rail speed up campaigns before 2007

Building a railway is only the start, and quite often the easiest part.
A bullet train will be examined every 2000-3000km, think about the maintenance fee and money for purchasing trains.
And India for the moment lacks real railway engineers, to say nothing of the bullet train engineers.

I don't know if we have bullet train engineers but saying that we don't have many Qualified rail engineers will be a understatement. Also countries like China,Germeny & Japan are helping us build manpower in this area.
 
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/c28fe2e8-a6fe-11e5-9700-2b669a5aeb83.html#axzz3uyVmxw1b

December 20, 2015 4:43 pm
Robin Harding in Tokyo and Tom Mitchell in Beijing

View attachment 281167

When Japan lost out to China on a $5bn deal to export high-speed rail to Indonesia this October, a nation despaired at the rejection of its beloved shinkansen, the great symbol of Japan’s technological might.

Yet this month it was the other way round as Japan rejoiced in a $15bn deal to build a high-speed line between Mumbai and Ahmedabad in India, while Chinese officials insisted they had not lost because there was no open tender.

The battle to sell high-speed rail has become a proxy for the broader competition between Japan and China for industrial supremacy and political influence in Asia. Yet officials say the cut-throat battle over high-speed rail reflects a different reality — few buyers actually want it.

“The shinkansen is part of Japan’s identity. We have to try and sell it,” says one senior official in Tokyo of the spectacularly generous financing packages both countries are offering.

The Indian shinkansen project was won with a $12bn loan from Japan at 0.1 per cent over 50 years. It will have a 15-year upfront repayment moratorium and Japan will supplement the loan with a generous package of technical assistance and training. China won the Indonesia project by offering to finance it without any recourse to Indonesia’s government.

Many countries think they want high-speed rail — a prized symbol of economic development — but fewer actually suit it. A high-speed line needs to connect two or more large cities, with reasonably high incomes, neither too close together nor too far apart. Taiwan is the only country to buy the shinkansen so far and its line makes heavy losses.

“There aren’t very many overseas markets that can support high-speed railways,” says Zhao Jian, a professor at Beijing Transportation University.

In Thailand, for example, the problem is choosing a second city large enough to connect with Bangkok; in Vietnam, Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City are big enough, but the 1160km distance is too far for rail to compete with air.

View attachment 281165

China and Japan are both trying their best to turn the competition away from finance. “Japan has more experience building high-speed railways,” says Sun Zhang, a railway expert at Tongji University in Shanghai. “But we have built out 10,800km of high-speed railways over the last 12 years. Our high-speed rail is cheaper because of our large scale production and lower labour costs.”

“With China creating a gigantic state-owned company, they may be able to manufacture in large volumes at low costs. But once it becomes a competition for initial pricing, it may turn to a war of attrition,” says Toshiaki Higashihara, president of Hitachi, one of the main shinkansen companies.

“The Japan consortium will be very strong if it can sell not just the railway vehicle but a comprehensive package including operational services over the span of an entire life cycle. I am confident the Japan consortium will not lose against other countries in terms of competitiveness,” he adds.

Behind the scenes, the competition is less decorous, with Japanese officials claiming China has no proper business plan for the Jakarta-Bandung line in Indonesia and is making promises it cannot keep.

View attachment 281166

Still, many Japanese experts also recognise their all-or-nothing approach — buyers have to take the shinkansen as an integrated system — is a tough sell. “The specs for the shinkansen are very high,” says Yoshihiko Sato, an industry consultant and author of a book on overseas rail projects. “The exporters want to take the shinkansen abroad as it is and that’s a challenge.”

Tatsuo Yasunaga, chief executive of trading house Mitsui, says Japanese infrastructure exports will succeed more often if its technologies are combined with those from other countries.

“When people talk about exporting infrastructure, they often focus on Japanese content. But Japan has its strengths and weaknesses,” Mr Yasunaga says. “We don’t think that we can win with an-all Japan package. You need to constantly think about what the best package is that is competitive.”

Developing countries are crying out for urban railways, and outside the companies with a direct stake in the shinkansen, many in Japan’s rail industry think metros are a better bet. “My personal opinion is putting effort into city railways rather than high-speed offers more business chances,” says Mr Sato.

Earlier this year, Sumitomo and Nippon Sharyo won a $107m rolling stock contract for the Jakarta metro. Delhi’s successful metro was built with Japanese money, and little noticed amid the high-speed hoopla, a visit by Shinzo Abe, Japan’s prime minister, also produced deals to finance systems in Chennai and Ahmedabad.

Mr Yasunaga says Mitsui had long pursued a Brazilian plan for a high-speed rail network linking Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. But it is now working on a metro line in São Paulo with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries after the costly bullet train plan faced public opposition.

“Japan can sell its strengths by first helping to build a precise and safe urban transportation system. In that way, it may lead to long-distance lines,” Mr Yasunaga says.


Additional reporting by Kana Inagaki in Tokyo

Sourgraped report. Indonesia one is a fair open tender, a real test of who is more popular and acceptance while India one attract no interest from China tender. We Chinese is not interested to help a rival in HSR. Of course Japan easily won as nobody dare to bid a mega project with India notorious red tape. Fancy this Japanese is so quick to write a propaganda article trying to fool the mass that Japanese HSR has an edge?

You have a link for that claim ?

Taiwan High Speed Rail bankruptcy is imminent: transportation minister - The China Post
 
Sourgraped report. Indonesia one is a fair open tender, a real test of who is more popular and acceptance while India one attract no interest from China tender. We Chinese is not interested to help a rival in HSR. Of course Japan easily won as nobody dare to bid a mega project with India notorious red tape. Fancy this Japanese is so quick to write a propaganda article trying to fool the mass that Japanese HSR has an edge?

That won't do them any good! Did you know, Indonesia used to be one prosperous nation that even Japanese women would think of marrying an Indonesian man. Indonesia is more highly esteemed than India to the Japanese. To lose the Indonesian deal to the Chinese in a fair contest must have dealt a big blow to their overinflated ego.
 
Sourgraped report. Indonesia one is a fair open tender, a real test of who is more popular and acceptance while India one attract no interest from China tender. We Chinese is not interested to help a rival in HSR. Of course Japan easily won as nobody dare to bid a mega project with India notorious red tape. Fancy this Japanese is so quick to write a propaganda article trying to fool the mass that Japanese HSR has an edge?



Taiwan High Speed Rail bankruptcy is imminent: transportation minister - The China Post

That link says Taiwan rail will go bankrupt(also it is an old link).I am asking for a link that justifies his reason for the bankruptcy of the Taiwanese HSR
 
That link says Taiwan rail will go bankrupt(also it is an old link).I am asking for a link that justifies his reason for the bankruptcy of the Taiwanese HSR
Do you still even need to ask? Overprice maintenance, high operating cost becos Japanese per wage is one of the highest with no significant increase in quality if compare to a made in China HSR.
 
Do you still even need to ask? Overprice maintenance, high operating cost becos Japanese per wage is one of the highest with no significant increase in quality if compare to a made in China HSR.
Not according to them, they think Chinese quality does not even come close. Maybe it's true, it certainly explains why i keep reading news of Chinese HSR constantly having issues or perhaps crashes all the time. :lol: Geez the other countries who gave the HSR projects to China sure are stupid don't you think? It's like asking for trouble and India is the only one intelligent enough to go for the best. :enjoy:
 
poor cow my foot , china has equivalent number of poor as Bharat has , but the press and media in Bharat is 100% transparent which is not the case with china , every news is propaganda FOR CHINESE GOVERNMENT ( and they are best in the world at chest thumping even if the economy is fulled with fake GDP growth thanks to massive waste infrastructure development regardless the state debts in trillions (there are ample of such data on google though understated too by chinese government ) . tell you something self proclaimed rich3itch , dont forget paper economy of china is export oriented and domestic consumption is not as strong as goods manufactured in petty factories full of slave labor , so demand has to come from the outside : the point caters your bull$hit assumption that china is not dependent on huge consumer based economies like Bharat . NOW ON TOPIC : japnese technology is the best in the world viz-a-viz trains are concerned and we are happy china is ignored as would be the state policy now .
every new Indian member joined PDF proves the accuracy of this survey
India is second most 'ignorant' country in the world!
India termed 'second most ignorant nation of the world' | The News Tribe
India the Second Most Ignorant Nation of the World: Survey | Dec 06,2015
in real world you lot are the master of delusion and bragging into oblivion :lol:
so in general, your knowledge of China and world is right next to nothing
 
Good luck to both nations. Like @Shotgunner51 says, hope we won't make this a destructive competition which would only hurt each other while benefit the third parties.

In the meantime, I am happy China did not show interest in Indian railway. For the sake of price cutting, it could have joined and helped Japan a little bit but while Mr. Abe was really in need of a victory, why not let him take it all?

I am happy with a situation where global market is mostly dominated by China and Japan HSR.


Well said bro, segregation of global market is good for both nations, congrats to Shinkansen for winning another deal! As reported in the article, there was no tender, it's good for China to stay away from low income and indebted economies. Though it would be useful to observe Japan's progress, if such venture is rewarding then more opportunities might open up in other low-income markets like Sub-Saharan Africa.

Beyond low-income markets, there are already plenty of suitable opportunities, wish both nations can compete healthily:


I have shared my view with @Nihonjin1051 that Shinkansen should increase focus on the Americas, especially US, Mexico, where Japan has far more socio-politico connection than China. Unless projects are financed by private sector like ExpressWest, China should stay away from politically sensitive north American infrastructure markets.

 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom