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India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

Nope. The Pak Army can hold its own against an onslaught from Indian Army. They would need air support to break through Pakistan's defenses, but this is the 21st century. The PAF is not sleeping and the AWACS further enhance our sight. Any IAF attack or support operation can be easily countered.

The only problem I see is the Pak Navy's limits in terms of funds and numbers. But even this issue has been addressed to some extent with the recent acquisition program.

The India's real competitor in the sea is China, which will soon have carrier(s) to its fleet.

Only a matter of time before Pak Navy also gets nuclear subs. Funds maybe a hinderance but when it comes to defending Pakistan no cost is too great and we will manage somehow.
no you wont be able to stop the in you dont have that much of strength nuclears subs wont matter much in it as the countries are very close the in will do any thing to bring down karachi port and block all the sea routes so now oil can pass after that you wont be able to fight for long as there is not much reserved oil in pak nor would the oil can come through roads as the taliban will do what ever they can to blow them up

as per ia they are still stronger than pa look at the amount of tanks and compare it no os soldiers vechiles helis etc
 
Well may be i sound diff here to some but pakistan needs to do just one thing instead of making any hue-cry......

No nothing different. This is exactly the same rant that we have been hearing from our eastern side. And if Pakistan would be attacked from it's eastern border for whatever reason Pakistan isn't going to tolerate it. Pakistan would retaliate. Simple. :)
 
This kind of chest thumping is best kept to one's self and results shown when it matters.

2002: India makes huge hue and cries and launches Operation Parakram, Pakistan mobilizes at a much faster rate than India and reaches the border long before India can. India is left red faced and made to look impotent against a much more smaller enemy.

2008: After the Mumbai attacks, Indian FM is threatening Pakistan with war by saying 'All Options are on the Table". IAF AVM comes out on TV and states that they have earmarked 5000 targets inside Pakistan. Pakistan calls out India's bluff and starts to mobilize, the Indian leaders realizing that they cannot force Pakistan into military submission, start coming out with statements such as "War is not the answer". India is again made to look impotent infront of a much more smaller enemy.

The results are right infront of you, you just have to open your eyes to see them. Unfortunately if you close your eyes to the reality and start believing whatever propaganda your Government feeds you, obviously you wont be able to see the reality.
 
well i think if in near future any big terrorist activity happens in india and its roots are traced back to pakistan then the most likely scenario would be air strike on terrorist camps and hideouts in pak by IAF. then Pakistan's response would decide to what level war can go.
 
2002: India makes huge hue and cries and launches Operation Parakram, Pakistan mobilizes at a much faster rate than India and reaches the border long before India can. India is left red faced and made to look impotent against a much more smaller enemy.

2008: After the Mumbai attacks, Indian FM is threatening Pakistan with war by saying 'All Options are on the Table". IAF AVM comes out on TV and states that they have earmarked 5000 targets inside Pakistan. Pakistan calls out India's bluff and starts to mobilize, the Indian leaders realizing that they cannot force Pakistan into military submission, start coming out with statements such as "War is not the answer". India is again made to look impotent infront of a much more smaller enemy.

The results are right infront of you, you just have to open your eyes to see them. Unfortunately if you close your eyes to the reality and start believing whatever propaganda your Government feeds you, obviously you wont be able to see the reality.

dont talk about war we very well know what has been the result in past who lost more men and more land in 65 who lost half of there country in 71 who were not able to bloody even win a glacire and the last 1999 even after gaining such heights an surprise advantage what happened so take your bs somewhere else
 
I suppose pak military doctrine according to you says nuke them when they fire a single bullet.. A bomb for a bullet!! WOW!

How old are you? Did you even read what i said?
 
The thread was going pretty good with very informed discussions until a couple of people ( blackops,BRIC,relativiti, SR blackbird)) showed up sh*t all over it. I think the MODS really need to do something about this. I am sick and tired of every thread being turned into a d**k measuring contest. Regardless of the flags, tehy should be punished.
 
2002: India makes huge hue and cries and launches Operation Parakram, Pakistan mobilizes at a much faster rate than India and reaches the border long before India can. India is left red faced and made to look impotent against a much more smaller enemy.

2008: After the Mumbai attacks, Indian FM is threatening Pakistan with war by saying 'All Options are on the Table". IAF AVM comes out on TV and states that they have earmarked 5000 targets inside Pakistan. Pakistan calls out India's bluff and starts to mobilize, the Indian leaders realizing that they cannot force Pakistan into military submission, start coming out with statements such as "War is not the answer". India is again made to look impotent infront of a much more smaller enemy.

The results are right infront of you, you just have to open your eyes to see them. Unfortunately if you close your eyes to the reality and start believing whatever propaganda your Government feeds you, obviously you wont be able to see the reality.

A bit over enthusiastic with the use of the word "impotent" dont you think? Seems you're itching for a scrap
I mean we will let history speak for itself with the results we have shown when we attacked at the "right time"......
2002 and 2008 were obviously not the right times given that the world attention was focussed on the subconinent and any massive retaliation by India would have met with the US and the UN stepping in deviating us from our goal, plus making us look like the aggressors.
Nevertheless I think you missed that external forces had a lot to do with India-Pak not going to war....esp when considering the Post Mumbai scenario...

and lets be honest, if the Indian armed forces were so "impotent" as you put it....Your army wouldnt be suffering from sleepless nights over a doctrine that they believe we cant execute...LOL!

PS: Just for the record....I dont think the Cold Start doctrine is anything but an exaggeration for quick mobilization. In my mind, its more of a psychological "boogeyman" than anything else...
Keep your enemy guessing and busy is its only motive..
 
well i think if in near future any big terrorist activity happens in india and its roots are traced back to pakistan then the most likely scenario would be air strike on....

Yes, certainly, but lets recognize that the "tracing back" has a political and a geo-political dimension and these are subject to change --- What really does concern me, again in the context of the changing geo-political, is the pendulum swinging such that there is a great international pressure with regard to Captive Kashmir and there is a Hawkish or lets say "nationalistic" government holding on weakly to power in the capital -- Then I think some of our Indian friends may find that Cold Start far from solving problems, may put them in a deeper problem --- lets recognize something the author of the lead article says about army's and politics as well, becoming, getting stuck in Dogma.

These constructs, such as Cold Start are developed as solutions to a problem, but end up becoming the problem because, while they are created in a particular political context, they do not take into account that the political and geo-political context changes, sometimes unfavorably.
 
No nothing different. This is exactly the same rant that we have been hearing from our eastern side. And if Pakistan would be attacked from it's eastern border for whatever reason Pakistan isn't going to tolerate it. Pakistan would retaliate. Simple. :)

You have the right to unleash your "freedom fighters" which we disprove of. We have the right to react and you will have the right to retaliate with what is left.
 
The main aim, as one sees, is that it just ensures that India has cut down its mobilisation time and taken off the advantage of Pakistan, which had its Cantonments near the border unlike India's, which were far to the rear.
 
Notorious,


The reality is that Op Parakrama, was stopped by the US since it wanted all attention towards Afghanistan and the long mobilisation took away the strategic surprise.

After Mumbai, our PM, who is dead keen that the peace dialogue does not get derailed did not signal a war.

Let us all hope that the push does not come to shove.
 
A bit over enthusiastic with the use of the word "impotent" dont you think? Seems you're itching for a scrap
I mean we will let history speak for itself with the results we have shown when we attacked at the "right time"......
2002 and 2008 were obviously not the right times given that the world attention was focussed on the subconinent and any massive retaliation by India would have met with the US and the UN stepping in deviating us from our goal, plus making us look like the aggressors.
Nevertheless I think you missed that external forces had a lot to do with India-Pak not going to war....esp when considering the Post Mumbai scenario...

and lets be honest, if the Indian armed forces were so "impotent" as you put it....Your army wouldnt be suffering from sleepless nights over a doctrine that they believe we cant execute...LOL!

PS: Just for the record....I dont think the Cold Start doctrine is anything but an exaggeration for quick mobilization. In my mind, its more of a psychological "boogeyman" than anything else...
Keep your enemy guessing and busy is its only motive..

I agree, i shouldn't have used the word 'impotent' and i apologize for that. Dealing with these Indian trollers with the attitude of 'know it all' does take its toll so you need to understand where i am coming from.

2008 and especially 2002 were not the right time to attack for India because simply put India lacked the capabilities that were needed to ensure a comprehensive defeat that was politically acceptable. Even if India managed to kill more Pakistani troops as compared to hers, what exactly were the objectives? I have read that the objectives were to punish Pakistan, but even if India manages to do exactly that but in the end withdraws from the land she captures, that is still a propaganda victory for Pakistan.

2002 was absolutely the right time for India to attack and if things would have gone right for India, trust me she would have attacked. It failed big time because it took 3 weeks for Indian strike formations to reach their war time positions against Pakistan, while in less than 2 weeks Pakistani divisions from as far away as Balochistan and KP were at the Indian borders. By the time the Indian strike formations reached their war time positions, Pakistani troops were well dug in taking the advantage away from India. Without firing a single bullet, the Indians lost almost 800 soldiers. Same goes for what happened in 2008, the Indian Army could not deliver a victory that was politically acceptable for the Indian people and that is why the Indian Army stood still.

I dont know where did you get the idea that PA is loosing its sleep because of the Cold Start, infact it has only helped our Armed Forces in opening their eyes and forcing them to engage in their modernization plans. After staying static for a decade, they are finally acquiring technology to close in the gaps where the Indians previously enjoyed absolute superiority. Its quite clear to me that the Indian Army is loosing its sleep and that is why your senior officers are raising concerns in the media, i dont see the same happening on our side of the border. But than again, if you close one of your eyes to reality this is exactly what is going to happen.

Notorious,


The reality is that Op Parakrama, was stopped by the US since it wanted all attention towards Afghanistan and the long mobilisation took away the strategic surprise.

After Mumbai, our PM, who is dead keen that the peace dialogue does not get derailed did not signal a war.

Let us all hope that the push does not come to shove.

I agree, i certainly hope that peace prevails and all this talk of war dies down. But ignoring reality would be a mistake, i have already addressed what went wrong with Op Parakram. Regarding the Mumbai attacks, it was the Indian side that pulled out of the peace dialogue so i am not too sure what the intentions of your PM were. Your FM threatened Pakistan with war and your AVM stated in public that IAF had earmarked 5000 targets inside Pakistan. This threat is as real as it gets as it was issued by two very senior members.
 
I am sure you know from where I come and may have greater experience under the belt. ;)

Been there many a time and done that many a time. ;)

Therefore, I understand the dire necessity of Peace.

In the current geopolitical and geostrategic environment, there can be NO comprehensive defeat.

It was also not feasible in 1971!
 
I personally think Pakistan armed forces should issue 10 years programme of weapons they want to buy specially armoured wheeled carriers with TOT destroyers,submariens fighter jets Sam system only than we can be on par in defence with india
 

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