Pakistan's western front

[haviZsultan]

This is the statement I find most objectionable by Raisani.

Compare it to the statements of the right wing Islamophobes arguing against "Muslim Immigration" into Europe. Its essentially the same idea.

I am all for Balochistan gaining autonomy, but not for draconian restrictions like these that fly in the face of equality of rights for all Pakistanis. All settlers in Balochistan would essentially become second class citizens, treated much the same way the Gulf States treat immigrant workers.

He wants to continue the "pure Baloch race" or what? Shades of the Nazi's "pure Aryanism?"

Its 3.75% of total pakistani population with 47% of land area... its natural that there r punjabis, sindhis and pashtuns in balochistan as well... what balochs want is all jobs in the mega projects to go to balochis and gas natural resources to be used by balochs. F4 example gas which is found in balochistan is not available in most parts of balochistan but is in many parts of punjab sindh and NWFP. These actions are cauzing a feeling of depriviation among many balochs. U can say they sort of want special treatment but i think its become sort of necessary because they feel very alienated. We have to give them special attention now cauz its only way to pacify feeling of not belonging to Pakistan that many balochs have started feeling.

 

[salman nedian]

I agree that Balochs are deprived people and the voting problem which Raisani raised is also valid. for this reason I think the local Government system is better.

I agree with Dimension that special attention should be given to Baluchistan.

 

[muse]

Once again we see nonsensical arguments - some argue that parts of Balouchistan do not have gas, whereas most the gas goes to PAYING CONSUMERS in Punjab and more populous parts of Pakistan --- Isn't it obvious that a commodity would go where most of the PAYING CONSUMERS are??

Other arguments above have gone ethnic, does that not go against the very idea of Pakistan? After all, is there is a ethnicity known as PAK?

Pakistan is a all or nothing proposition, those who argue for "some" Pakistani content in their ethnic "stan" are simply going to lose. Yes these deliberately rootless will threaten Pakistan, yes, they will cause much mayhem and inflict loss of lives on Pakistan, but in the end, they will lose, they started out in a proposition that is a loser. There will be no ethnic stan, there is and there will be only Pakistan, a non-ethnic, non-lingusitic, nation state whose unique identity is a work in progress and will and should ever be, a work in progress. Attempts to derail this work in progress are bound to fail.

See, Pakistanis, and there are people who have come to a reasoned framework for their identification as, Pakistanis, have now taken root - some argue that this is a artificial identity, as if there were anything other - all nationalism, all "identity" is self created and thank God, more and more persons realize themselves as first and foremost as Pakistanis, regardless of ethnicity or confession. The Qaaid and the Shaheed e Millat vision of Pakistan will prevail, but not if we fail to reason and see our interest not in barbarous tribalism, not in modern abomination of religion as ideology instead of FAITH, not in ethnic nonsense, but in a reasoned, self created, self directed identity that offers hope to all people, that empowers all people to realize their God given potential in the large hearted, God loving, Humanity loving people that are the nation state of Pakistan.



Yes, we have problems and major ones at that, but we have each other and we know, we know, there is no more better for us than Pakistanis.

 

[Kasrkin]

Muse I was beginning to think Pakistanis like you didn't exist. All the news papers, all the channels, all the talk shows, everyone is talking such crap these days. Its like everyone has lost their honor and loyality and common sense! Times like this I find myself wishing we were more like Turkey.

But there is still hope, MashAllah as long as the Armed Forces and people like us who really care about the green flag. Not some stupid political party/personality cult based on ethnic rubbish or this un-Islamic 'Islamism' madness based on jahalat and tribalism.

Now that there is a new 'elected' goverment on the western front, its hope there is a change. Though I admit I deeply distrust the ANP, they are worse than the MMA(if any such thing is possible).

 

[khanz]

i really hope they seal the border and mine it too it doesn't matter what afghanistan says it's pakistan's business what it does on it's soil.
Afghans and uzbeks all need to be kept out sealing the border is the only way.Sometimes i wish we had balls like israel right or wrong you gotta give them credit they do whatever it takes to protect their land like their illegal apartheid wall that is condemned by the entrie world but as long as it protects jewish areas they do it and here pak is compromising on it's own security to satisfy of just the one country who causes us most trouble and hates us most is against it.
I say close the damn border forever !

 

[MastanKhan]

Muse,

If people have not learnt by now that if the owner of the land is not the primary beneficiary of the resources coming out of his property, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the law, the justice and honour system in that society.

The only thing obvious is that you don't have the merchandise---you want to use it first---so you want to steal it from the rightful owners---and justify it about putting the majority rule clause in it----the problem over here is that we have provincial boundary / autonomy and provincial mineral reclamation law enforcement issues, we also have the right of provincial citizens to be the first and foremost beneficiaries of any natural resources found in those provinces.

It is just like stating that the state of Texas cannot have any oil---it needs to go to the new england states, because there is more demand of oil over there and more paying customers, or the state of california cannot use its fruits and vegetable from the fruit belt of Fresno, becaue the utah, idaho, wyoming, montana, the dakotas, nebraska have more paying customers, or the state of Nevada cannot benefit from the sales of gold that it excavates from its mines and it needs to go to mississipi, because there are a lot of poor people in that state and they are in larger numbers.

Muse---others can come up with the excuse that---money, property and resouces should go to those who deserve the most----then are you willing to let go of your rich inheritence that you are going to get from your parents---there is a lots of money, land and property that they have for you that you cannot use and there are those who can use your money better than you can---so what do you say to that.

Remember---charity begins at home---give all yours and your parents property away to the needy---live like a pauper for a year---and if you are still alive and kicking and a believer---I will support you on the "MOST PAYING CONSUMER" issue---which is almost similiar to the "MOST NEEDY CONSUMER".

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

There are many interesting issue raised by Muse.

Indeed, the main theme in his first post is an implied rationale that there is the need to rid one of the symptoms of ‘self pity’ and feeling that the whole world is against us (Pakistan).

It is true that there are many forces at play that feel that Pakistan is a push over and more so amongst those who harbour pan Islamic sentiments above the State and the people. He terms then as Islamists and radicals, if I have understood correctly.

I would not go so far as to state that these elements are wanting Pakistan to settle into the dustbin of history, but there is no doubt that these elements are hell bent in taking Pakistan out of the comity of nations and recognised system of governance.

Musharraf has indeed brought Pakistan back on even keel. And it would be incorrect not to give him his due. On the other hand, we have to give the democratic govt a chance to see if they do not do better, or spin Pakistan back into the annals of recent history and lead it to the original chaos.

Here I disagree with Muse. Afghanistan is not a non state as far as Pakistan is concerned. It has its importance in context of Pakistan strategic needs. Further, no nation in Asia has the power and the wherewithal wherein it can make anyone tremble in fear. However, indeed, nations have the deterrence factor that an attack could lead to grave and maybe irreparable consequence.

FATA and Balochistan are tribal in ethos and have a long history of tribalism and feudalism. This should have been eliminated when there was the euphoria of independence so that the ground swell would have consigned the Sardars and Vadheras into the dustbowl of history. India did it and it eliminated the concept, though in some backward areas, the mindset does find simmering occasionally indicating that it takes years to rid the aberrations of society. Therefore, the problems of FATA and Balochistan will take time and patience.

“Pakistan cannot seem to decide if it will go quietly or it will have its backbone fortified by the West. He who hesitates is lost??” This is an interesting comment that requires deep scrutiny of Pakistanis at large.

Provinces of both India and Pakistan represent nations. This is a truism. This is one of the major factors that are a bane to both nations and one has to agree that if nationalism is to flourish over subnationalism, there is no doubt that Provinces and States should be reconstituted based on administrative convenience and not based regional or subnationalist identity.

 

[fatman17]

There are many interesting issue raised by Muse.

Indeed, the main theme in his first post is an implied rationale that there is the need to rid one of the symptoms of ‘self pity’ and feeling that the whole world is against us (Pakistan).

It is true that there are many forces at play that feel that Pakistan is a push over and more so amongst those who harbour pan Islamic sentiments above the State and the people. He terms then as Islamists and radicals, if I have understood correctly.

I would not go so far as to state that these elements are wanting Pakistan to settle into the dustbin of history, but there is no doubt that these elements are hell bent in taking Pakistan out of the comity of nations and recognised system of governance.

Musharraf has indeed brought Pakistan back on even keel. And it would be incorrect not to give him his due. On the other hand, we have to give the democratic govt a chance to see if they do not do better, or spin Pakistan back into the annals of recent history and lead it to the original chaos.

Here I disagree with Muse. Afghanistan is not a non state as far as Pakistan is concerned. It has its importance in context of Pakistan strategic needs. Further, no nation in Asia has the power and the wherewithal wherein it can make anyone tremble in fear. However, indeed, nations have the deterrence factor that an attack could lead to grave and maybe irreparable consequence.

FATA and Balochistan are tribal in ethos and have a long history of tribalism and feudalism. This should have been eliminated when there was the euphoria of independence so that the ground swell would have consigned the Sardars and Vadheras into the dustbowl of history. India did it and it eliminated the concept, though in some backward areas, the mindset does find simmering occasionally indicating that it takes years to rid the aberrations of society. Therefore, the problems of FATA and Balochistan will take time and patience.

“Pakistan cannot seem to decide if it will go quietly or it will have its backbone fortified by the West. He who hesitates is lost??” This is an interesting comment that requires deep scrutiny of Pakistanis at large.

Provinces of both India and Pakistan represent nations. This is a truism. This is one of the major factors that are a bane to both nations and one has to agree that if nationalism is to flourish over subnationalism, there is no doubt that Provinces and States should be reconstituted based on administrative convenience and not based regional or subnationalist identity.

so u seem to support Ayub Khan's One-Unit Theory!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

so u seem to support Ayub Khan's One-Unit Theory!

Not in totality.

Just that there has some manner where subnationalism does not overtake nationalism and yet at the same time, does not ruin the unique cultural, social and historical background and uniqueness of each community.

 

[muse]

Mastan


If I understand you correctly, THE PEOPLE of the province have ownership rights to any item we can name as "resources" - is this a correct understanding of your position?

If it is a correct understanding of your position, then how is it that THE PEOPLE, are reflected int he totality of Sardars? Which Sardar has taken refuge in the law? Is it it not true that that insurrection and sabotage is their venue for redress?

But the larger question of the ownership - if your logic, why is the federation of Pakistan at a loss to exercise it's sovereignty, where as the province is not?

You cite the example of Texas, but this is not an appropriate example, after all it is not Texas, but Texans who who have ownership rights, secondly, no tribal, unless of course you are arguing that Balouch are the equivalent of native Americans on reservations, is engaging the state and federal government with insurrection and sabotage.

You will also grant that the American federation is not operating on a socialist model and that relief from the federal government is not a requirement for the allegiance of the citizen.

Hydrocarbon reserves are considered a "national resource" - now, this understanding can be debated in courts, so can the obligations of the federal and provincial governments, perhaps even a new concord that sidelines Sardars and ensures a mechanism for a more equitable agreement between the federal and provincial government that is transparent and ensures that the royalties accruing to the province are used for public projects and not the Sardars bank accounts.

 

[fatman17]

Not in totality.

Just that there has some manner where subnationalism does not overtake nationalism and yet at the same time, does not ruin the unique cultural, social and historical background and uniqueness of each community.

nationalism was the basis of one-unit, atleast that is what i remember being taught in school during that period and did not ruin the unique cultural, social and historical background and uniqueness of each community

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Fatman.

On recollection, what you are stating is correct.

I will try to read up on the issue to refresh my memory.

In addition, I will also look up Basic Democracy or was it Guided Democracy?

Thanks for jiggling my brain!

 

[MastanKhan]

Muse,

I was reading a book 'HOT SPRINGS' by Stephen Hunter, yesterday and there was a comment about 'law and order'. The character is a DA---the question asked is, that, if it comes down to, is LAW important or is ORDER more important for the society at a "given time".

If the law does not have any compassion built in it and you always hide behind the technicalities of the law, then niether you will have the application of the law or an order in the society. That is the basic fundamental funtion of a law, ie to create order in the society, but sometimes you can forego the law to have order.

Now the federation made that prejudicial law of federation owning the natural resources---the federation was dominated by the majority population province--punab. Punjab benefitted the most from this law. The sardar issue is the creation of the federation---this is a criminal neglect on the part of the federation to support the sardars and let the peasants rot in the barren land of balochistan.

Federation of pakistan has been forcing the right of its sovereignty for the last sixty years---but you cannot live happily ever after by forcing your right even on the weak and the poor, how can you force it on a province.

Muse, in any argument or under any circumstances one must always remember---if it comes down to it---is the law more important or is order in a community. The reader must remember AK 47 and C 4 cemtex are the greatest equalizer os strength and balance of power. The state can take its right of national sovereignty and---there are already blackouts at mega scale so what can I say.

Why should the courts be involved---where is the human factor---where is compassion and love for the other man and his family---balochistan is not a step child.

Oh but the federal government does come to the rescue in U S---in form of federal disaster relief funds---building highway loans and grants---federal loans and otherwise. If the feds stop these reliefs for a long time and don't help the states for a period of 10, 20, 30 years---these states would be looking forward to making their own alliances and creating their own federated units. This federation is not cast in stone but rather cast on the basis of love and compassion for each other.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Mastan,

A great post.

However, law and order goes hand in hand.

It is like horse and carriage.

Without either, it is incomplete!!

 

[Always Neutral]

i really hope they seal the border and mine it too it doesn't matter what afghanistan says it's pakistan's business what it does on it's soil.
Afghans and uzbeks all need to be kept out sealing the border is the only way.Sometimes i wish we had balls like israel right or wrong you gotta give them credit they do whatever it takes to protect their land like their illegal apartheid wall that is condemned by the entrie world but as long as it protects jewish areas they do it and here pak is compromising on it's own security to satisfy of just the one country who causes us most trouble and hates us most is against it.
I say close the damn border forever !

Where will you get the USD 2 billion to do it ? Its not that simple to do ie seal of the border. You will also alienate the whole tribal belt on the Pakistani side.

Regards