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I think Pakistan is going to take the J-35 and then rename it "Project Azm". lol
Or another route (and more respectable) would be innovate over JF-17 next version. Add stealthy features, add RAM (radar absorbing material), more advance EW etc, and then it won't matter if they call JF-17 block 4 as Project AZM.
The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.
Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.
J-35 has be a mature platform before PAF will consider it. I think PAF is not quit ready for 5th generation fighter. Our first priority should be to improving JF-17 so it can become True 4th generation fighter. We have to replace older mirage and F7s and they can be replaced with JF-17 and J-10.The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.
Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.
J-35 has be a mature platform before PAF will consider it. I think PAF is not quit ready for 5th generation fighter. Our first priority should be to improving JF-17 so it can become True 4th generation fighter. We have to replace older mirage and F7s and they can be replaced with JF-17 and J-10.
Many of us have said in the past that Pakistan does not have the technical or industrial base to create a 5th gen foghter on its own anf that likely this wod trickle down to joining TFX or J-35. Looks like this is right. The thing Pakistan should focus on acutely is that if they plan on joining the TFX program, they need to modify the design to take an ITAR safe poweplant. Pakistan needs to get the bluprint and focus on its end to fit the WS-10 in the TFX. This will likely need to be done without chinese technical assistance (im sure the turks dont want china's fingers in its projects). Otherwise this will be a no go from the beginning
1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.You are saying what I've been trying to say on here but with a proposal. I'm not the PAF so what I say has no role beyond this forum for discussion. Under my proposal:
1) The PAF should finish up the JFT block III (50?) orders and any export orders that come. Stop manufacturing of the JFT for the PAF beyond block III and focus on enhancement / sustainment / rebuilds of the JFT.
2) The PAF should acquire Chinese J-10C production line for license production (initially limited ToT and later majority build in Pakistan similar to the JFT). It should build the J-10C in numbers 100-150 and form a true backbone (even rename if to JFT block 4 delta wing like the F-16 V for consistency to it's internal fighter program).
3) Work with Turkey and China on capabilities around TFX and J-31 respectively and how to convert the J-10C airframe into a stealthy one and incorporate whichever 5th gen tech solution make sense through integration in house using WC engines from China with TVC.
4) Roll the stealthy 5th gen work under project AZM and create a stealthy design by 2030. So the J-10C airframe / delta wing will become the standardized PAF platform forming it's top tier fighter as well as creating a stealthy one out of it also using TFX / J-31 tech.
The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.
Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.
1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.
2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.
3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.
4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.
Agreed. J-10CE will fill the top flight role and i think it will be what PAF wanted for the F-16. The F-16 will start being phased out in 2030s when a FGFA starts coming online, the JF-17 should continue to see interative upgrades. If Gripen has no end in sight, why should the thunder? The aircraft will see significant improvements with a better powerplant which could allow it to continue serving deep into 2030s.We need to Continue with JF-17 block 3 production and keep working on block 4 with better avionics & sensors, engine, and more composite material to reduce overall weight.
We need at least 300 to 350 to replace older mirage and F-7s.
IMHO, we need to continue acquisition of J-10C for stop gap purpose until 5th generation fighter program is mature.
Has anyone ever come across a military expert or an aviation expert describe the jf17 as underpowered?1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.
2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.
3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.
4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.
To give that description you have to fly it, and no one who flies it would ever put such a statement out. BUUT with a TWR <1:1 it definitely leaves a bit to be desired. This will be relavant to payload in addition to wing strenght. Getting something in the 21-23000lb range with similar reliability as RD-93 would help its performance considerably.Has anyone ever come across a military expert or an aviation expert describe the jf17 as underpowered?
1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.
2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.
3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.
4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.