A Homeland for Indian Muslims

[padamchen]

It wasn't a literal 'screw you' directed at me, more an implicit one directed at Pakistan & my argument that we could stop soldiers dying on the LoC, dying away from their families and could lay the groundwork for greater trade, economic cooperation & broader people to people exchanges between India & Pakistan by letting the PEOPLE of J&K decide via plebiscite.

The intent of your response was clear.

Added an afterthought.

 

[jamahir]

I haven't researched on how European Laws were, maybe Sharia Laws might have been good for 7th century Arabia. But laws keep changing to adjust to the present society and thus some laws no longer can be used in the present context.

Just to reply to that point, modern European marriage law is based on Sharia law. Please read this post of mine from earlier in this thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You can always answer me freely Joe. You and I may not agree on everything, but I don't believe I've ever formally censured you.

Well, Sir, I shook my head in disbelief when @PradoTLC burst out and told us what he really thought of Muslim Indians. If you read his answer, on this thread, it becomes very clear.

There are those who will stand and bear witness to the plight of the Muslim Indian as a duty to themselves in terms of their religion. There are those who support the Muslim Indian due to the rightness of their cause, due to humanitarian reasons, not as an act of charity, but a restoration of just rights, and of the dignity of an Indian citizen. Then there are those who see Muslim Indians as cannon fodder, to be used to push through a wholly Pakistan-centric agenda. Nothing wrong with that, so long as the Muslim Indian understands which is which, and what may be expected where. I pointed out to @AfrazulMandal and to @xeuss (the third eloquent member of that group has a name that I cannot remember for the life of me) that they need to be aware of these different objectives, but it was a rude shock when I had to point out in addition that they were free to enlist support wherever they wished to.

To answer your question, I made my assessment from the self-incriminating words of the member himself.

 

[undercover JIX]

I am not worth it. It is gracious of you.

you are.
You are one of the oldest members (joining date not the age) here and well respected.
Trolls like me should always show respect to people like.

ask Daaktar sab.

 

[Naofumi]

Indian Muslims have little chance I guess. Whenever they protect their interests, they are never doing what's right for them apparently. Between appeasing Pakistan and encouraging hindutva, Indian Muslims really are doing nothing for themselves at all, right? Is this the point you wish to make here?

My point was that Hindutva's history is tied to that of Muslim League, if one of them was the Britisher's mess then other was too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Basically, if you (figuratively here) are going to support us, support us for what we are and who we are, and more importantly because it is the humane and right thing to do. Don't qualify your support with a rider that "only if you do this or that will you reach the promised land". Because then, you are not supporting "us", but another "idea of us that you have dreamed of".

Right. Agreed.

Now show me the specific ambiguous passage (or passages) that was so disconcerting.

I think @dharmi somewhere between gave a good answer about the inadequacies of Sharia Law. I haven't researched on how European Laws were, maybe Sharia Laws might have been good for 7th century Arabia. But laws keep changing to adjust to the present society and thus some laws no longer can be used in the present context.

I will always go in for laws that are good for the present times. You talked something about Hindu laws about joint families or something like that. My point is: if any law is bad, it's bad. Doesn't matter if it's Hindu/Muslim/Christian. We all should come to terms with the present world.

That's from where we get the phrase: Be in present.

But tell me, do you think the Shariah Law is perfect in the present scenario? And why aren't Pakistanis themselves following it through? Or some other Muslim countries as well?

You, young Sir, need to do your homework. It isn't good enough at the moment.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

@masterchief_mirza @N.Siddiqui @Ace of Spades @PakSword @StormBreaker @DESERT FIGHTER @SIPRA @Mentee


Numbers.

We need to breakdown the numbers to foster a better understanding ...otherwise, we shall remain locked in posts-n-counterposts....

With Rise of Indianness given catalyst by Hindutva and a new found selfassurance that such movements bring is now mainstream.

EconomicBycott of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan is now mainstream... SaffronFlags even on veg/fruit sellers using to distinguish between Muslims and the good Indians.

It is not new... certain BJP leaders have advocated it as a tool of GharWapsi as well.... lest we forget after the paper annexation of IoJK... the certain BJP leaders... I believe one CM as well...said that now the good Indians could/would marry Gorri Kashmiri girls @waz

All here on PDF... a keen student can search/research.

Golli maro salon ko ... and all other chants... and then viglanteez...

2002 Gujarat
2020 Delhi

Same people were in charge then...same people are in charge now... and this constant villification of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan is not only continuing but it is the primetime show of IndianMedia too....

The charge of being not loyal to India or Indianness.... the demand of putting India above Allah... the charges of having too many babies... or living off the Indian state's welfare system....

Furthermore, the disappointed ones call it Appeasement of Muslims ...first by CongRSS and now by BJP...

What is the classification and quantificaiton of this 'Appeasement' is difficult to rationalise...in absence of the accusers providing validated data @xeuss

We have seen how the IndianMonk CM crushed the protests against CAA.... police sodomising kids with iron batons and making the imam undress infront of his students...

Strong leader this IndianMonk!

If there are 220mln Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan .... then it is a sizable minority against the 1+Bln Indians.

We did calculate @Ace of Spades the share of NationalWealth by the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan ... which gives us solid understanding about the 'muscle' these bottom 50% have or could excercise.... @BHarwana

In IoJK it has taken the good Indians to deploy 900k+ troops..and still they have NO Control over the situation... just yesterday's 'encounter' is a glaring example of that FACT!

IoJK is essentially a Jail or a Shoebox with all the PakKashmiris contained within.... and then 900k+ IndianTroops trying to further Contian it!

1 Indian solidier to 9 Kashmiris i.e. old, young, man, woman or infants...

1% of 220mln is 2.2mln.

Although the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan are spread thin within India and are in Ghettos....with minimum share of National Wealth.. 1% is 2.2mln.

What the MaqboozaDelhi Pogrom taught us that despite the POTUS being in twon the good Indians felt confident enough to get on with... wetting their sowrds red.. as some valiant Indian claimed. Rapping a 13 girl/child by seven Indians was just.... what?

India and Indians have to decide once and for all what do they wish with Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan?

Are they equal citizens?

Are they aliens among them living in Ghettoz?

With lowest per capita income and spending by the Indian gov.... the future of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan is more Gehtoofication and further Apartheid. @AgNoStiC MuSliM

Apartheid in villages, towns and cities.....

Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan living a parallel life in a parallel universe...

The longer this state of affairs last the more difficult would be integeration of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan within the Indian society and politics....state appratus...

In otherwords, lessening and lessening stakeholderhsip of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan as the framing them the 'other' or alien...not Indian enough ...continues....

1% is 2.2 million.

10% is 22 million.

PakKashmiris could be Shoeboxed in the Valley of Sorrows .... 100.000 in 7000 massgrave. 10.000 GangRaped by the valiant IndianArmy ....

100s lost sight due to brave Indians firing shotguns on crowds....including very small childeren. 14.000 youngsters are taken by the brave IndianArmy....no one knows where they are.... And still NOTHING under control.

Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan are spread all over India ...hence, lynching or chopping them off or burning alive is rather an easy affair...

However, it is impossible to turn entire India into Shoebox for 220mln Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan. Impossible!

LoveJihad. LandJihad. XJihad. YJihad. CoronaJihad.... the good Indians have more types are Jihads whirled at Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan than the Two types of Jihad in Islam.... talk about relentless branding of the 'other', the 'alien'....

Buddhists could be cleansed from India in those olden days.... because it was a different Age.... Muslims cann't be cleansed from Indian because now it is different Age. Mobility.

Now the IndianState is building ConcentrationCamps for the 'illegal' muslims in India.... nice... though GenocideWatch has raised red flag about it... but ConcentrationCamps are being built.

Can these ConcentrationCamps hold 60mln muslims who are supposed be illegal in India?

And what next? If noboday wants/owns these 60mln..then what? Leave them there... with men and women separated?

The final verdict on BabriMasjid by the Indian SC is rather interesting... without any evidence of so-called ancient structure to be ever there... the SC awards the place for a temple to be built on that very site where according to itself it never existed.... OrangeState?

1% is 2.2mln

10% is 22mln

There is always a breaking point...though Poverty is the Greatest Dehumaniser.... but there is always a BreakingPoint!

Should the good Indians continue on this path of seeing/treating the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan as the 'other', the 'alien'... the 'secret Pakistanis' and keep economically bycotting them... for how long... will the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan keep finding ways to just survive?

The buzz word of Islamist to everything Muslim... is cool but only for so long...

Should 1% i.e. 2.2mln become truly disenchanted and without any hope... radicalisation/resistence becomes the only outlet.

10% i.e 22mln would be supportive of such Resistence... for their own survival... and then it could grow from there... resulting in unimaginable loss of Humanity!!!

It is all fine and dandy...for the good Indians to claim Ancient Glories and Past Injuries...but what they are doing today is, infact, already Creating their Future.

No amount of spinning, wordsmithing, word-plays or dennials can whitewash this emerging reality....

India has still a narrow time strip to course correct and integerate Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan as equal citizens with percental representation in all of the State's Apparatus...

Now they are not stakeholders...but residents...focused upon survival in increasing hostile society!

Sarkari Muslims or MullahMaffia on Indian payroll don't count.... doesn't matter how they burn PakFlag or say silly things... it is the 220mln Muslims fo MaqboozaHindustan that matter. 1%. 10%. 20%.

Hopefully, the good Indians also realise that the War on Terror is now wrapped up...and Islamist/IslamicTerror narrative is receding by the day... it is all now about China. China. China.

IndianState and politician did cash on the War on Terror and could do all they wanted in IoJK and kept on blaming Pakistan from Kabootar to Venus and everything in between.

1%. 10%. 20% ..... what happens to Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan and how they Resist it... is not going to stick to Islamist/IslmaicTerror ThemeSong or Blaming Pakistan....

But for now the good Indians seem to be prisoners of their own narrative... and ever Rising Indianness is now growing indpendent of Hindutva Catalyst as well.... leaving room only for more and more Hardliners....

India has an existential choice in front of it!

Mangus

Brilliant analysis.

"Apartheid" style features are certainly evident.

 

[Sharma Ji]

@masterchief_mirza @N.Siddiqui @Ace of Spades @PakSword @StormBreaker @DESERT FIGHTER @SIPRA @Mentee


Numbers.

We need to breakdown the numbers to foster a better understanding ...otherwise, we shall remain locked in posts-n-counterposts....

With Rise of Indianness given catalyst by Hindutva and a new found selfassurance that such movements bring is now mainstream.

EconomicBycott of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan is now mainstream... SaffronFlags even on veg/fruit sellers using to distinguish between Muslims and the good Indians.

It is not new... certain BJP leaders have advocated it as a tool of GharWapsi as well.... lest we forget after the paper annexation of IoJK... the certain BJP leaders... I believe one CM as well...said that now the good Indians could/would marry Gorri Kashmiri girls @waz

All here on PDF... a keen student can search/research.

Golli maro salon ko ... and all other chants... and then viglanteez...

2002 Gujarat
2020 Delhi

Same people were in charge then...same people are in charge now... and this constant villification of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan is not only continuing but it is the primetime show of IndianMedia too....

The charge of being not loyal to India or Indianness.... the demand of putting India above Allah... the charges of having too many babies... or living off the Indian state's welfare system....

Furthermore, the disappointed ones call it Appeasement of Muslims ...first by CongRSS and now by BJP...

What is the classification and quantificaiton of this 'Appeasement' is difficult to rationalise...in absence of the accusers providing validated data @xeuss

We have seen how the IndianMonk CM crushed the protests against CAA.... police sodomising kids with iron batons and making the imam undress infront of his students...

Strong leader this IndianMonk!

If there are 220mln Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan .... then it is a sizable minority against the 1+Bln Indians.

We did calculate @Ace of Spades the share of NationalWealth by the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan ... which gives us solid understanding about the 'muscle' these bottom 50% have or could excercise.... @BHarwana

In IoJK it has taken the good Indians to deploy 900k+ troops..and still they have NO Control over the situation... just yesterday's 'encounter' is a glaring example of that FACT!

IoJK is essentially a Jail or a Shoebox with all the PakKashmiris contained within.... and then 900k+ IndianTroops trying to further Contian it!

1 Indian solidier to 9 Kashmiris i.e. old, young, man, woman or infants...

1% of 220mln is 2.2mln.

Although the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan are spread thin within India and are in Ghettos....with minimum share of National Wealth.. 1% is 2.2mln.

What the MaqboozaDelhi Pogrom taught us that despite the POTUS being in twon the good Indians felt confident enough to get on with... wetting their sowrds red.. as some valiant Indian claimed. Rapping a 13 girl/child by seven Indians was just.... what?

India and Indians have to decide once and for all what do they wish with Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan?

Are they equal citizens?

Are they aliens among them living in Ghettoz?

With lowest per capita income and spending by the Indian gov.... the future of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan is more Gehtoofication and further Apartheid. @AgNoStiC MuSliM

Apartheid in villages, towns and cities.....

Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan living a parallel life in a parallel universe...

The longer this state of affairs last the more difficult would be integeration of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan within the Indian society and politics....state appratus...

In otherwords, lessening and lessening stakeholderhsip of Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan as the framing them the 'other' or alien...not Indian enough ...continues....

1% is 2.2 million.

10% is 22 million.

PakKashmiris could be Shoeboxed in the Valley of Sorrows .... 100.000 in 7000 massgrave. 10.000 GangRaped by the valiant IndianArmy ....

100s lost sight due to brave Indians firing shotguns on crowds....including very small childeren. 14.000 youngsters are taken by the brave IndianArmy....no one knows where they are.... And still NOTHING under control.

Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan are spread all over India ...hence, lynching or chopping them off or burning alive is rather an easy affair...

However, it is impossible to turn entire India into Shoebox for 220mln Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan. Impossible!

LoveJihad. LandJihad. XJihad. YJihad. CoronaJihad.... the good Indians have more types are Jihads whirled at Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan than the Two types of Jihad in Islam.... talk about relentless branding of the 'other', the 'alien'....

Buddhists could be cleansed from India in those olden days.... because it was a different Age.... Muslims cann't be cleansed from Indian because now it is different Age. Mobility.

Now the IndianState is building ConcentrationCamps for the 'illegal' muslims in India.... nice... though GenocideWatch has raised red flag about it... but ConcentrationCamps are being built.

Can these ConcentrationCamps hold 60mln muslims who are supposed be illegal in India?

And what next? If noboday wants/owns these 60mln..then what? Leave them there... with men and women separated?

The final verdict on BabriMasjid by the Indian SC is rather interesting... without any evidence of so-called ancient structure to be ever there... the SC awards the place for a temple to be built on that very site where according to itself it never existed.... OrangeState?

1% is 2.2mln

10% is 22mln

There is always a breaking point...though Poverty is the Greatest Dehumaniser.... but there is always a BreakingPoint!

Should the good Indians continue on this path of seeing/treating the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan as the 'other', the 'alien'... the 'secret Pakistanis' and keep economically bycotting them... for how long... will the Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan keep finding ways to just survive?

The buzz word of Islamist to everything Muslim... is cool but only for so long...

Should 1% i.e. 2.2mln become truly disenchanted and without any hope... radicalisation/resistence becomes the only outlet.

10% i.e 22mln would be supportive of such Resistence... for their own survival... and then it could grow from there... resulting in unimaginable loss of Humanity!!!

It is all fine and dandy...for the good Indians to claim Ancient Glories and Past Injuries...but what they are doing today is, infact, already Creating their Future.

No amount of spinning, wordsmithing, word-plays or dennials can whitewash this emerging reality....

India has still a narrow time strip to course correct and integerate Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan as equal citizens with percental representation in all of the State's Apparatus...

Now they are not stakeholders...but residents...focused upon survival in increasing hostile society!

Sarkari Muslims or MullahMaffia on Indian payroll don't count.... doesn't matter how they burn PakFlag or say silly things... it is the 220mln Muslims fo MaqboozaHindustan that matter. 1%. 10%. 20%.

Hopefully, the good Indians also realise that the War on Terror is now wrapped up...and Islamist/IslamicTerror narrative is receding by the day... it is all now about China. China. China.

IndianState and politician did cash on the War on Terror and could do all they wanted in IoJK and kept on blaming Pakistan from Kabootar to Venus and everything in between.

1%. 10%. 20% ..... what happens to Muslims of MaqboozaHindustan and how they Resist it... is not going to stick to Islamist/IslmaicTerror ThemeSong or Blaming Pakistan....

But for now the good Indians seem to be prisoners of their own narrative... and ever Rising Indianness is now growing indpendent of Hindutva Catalyst as well.... leaving room only for more and more Hardliners....

India has an existential choice in front of it!

Mangus

Why don't you learn to write out your posts in a normal clean format and use the bolds, the underlined points and coloured bits in an effective way to actually make whatever point you might be trying to make ?

professor Joe would shred you to bits, not necessarily the content, but the grammar etc


you remind me of an old uncle who once said he was stuck in "traffic" , being late as he was, for a family gathering. When he actually was stuck in traffic , not like he had a mistress or any other reason

but he still made a gesture as he explained to us why he was late. Maybe he thought that means to emphasize a point lol.

urdu/punjabi bolo.. koi tanson ni !

 

[masterchief_mirza]

My point was that Hindutva's history is tied to that of Muslim League, if one of them was the Britisher's mess then other was too.

I would simply say that victim blaming of Muslims in India seems to be a common theme. Nobody sees fit to simply call a spade a spade. Hindutva is fashioned from hate. The Brits allowed it to prosper certainly, encouraged and unleashed it, but even they can't answer for what it's become. Likewise, the Muslim League 80 years ago and modern muslims of India are not somehow culpable for hindutva's existence or hindutva policies.

A similarly disingenuous argument is made by some that Nazism arose as a reaction to the behaviour of Jews in Germany.

 

[jamahir]

Why don't you learn to write out your posts in a normal clean format and use the bolds, the underlined points and coloured bits in an effective way to actually make whatever point you might be trying to make ?

Never understood why @Mangus Ortus Novem writes in such a tedious fashion. He even underlines an entire paragraph.

Difficult to read really.

 

[El Sidd]

I would simply say that victim blaming of Muslims in India seems to be a common theme. Nobody sees fit to simply call a spade a spade. Hindutva is fashioned from hate. The Brits allowed it to prosper certainly, encouraged and unleashed it, but even they can't answer for what it's become. Likewise, the Muslim League 80 years ago and modern muslims of India are not somehow culpable for hindutva's existence or hindutva policies.

A similarly disingenuous argument is made by some that Nazism arose as a reaction to the behaviour of Jews in Germany.

The 20 percent swing vote is now a nationalist trap.

Mirza you are just evil

 

[Naofumi]

I would simply say that victim blaming of Muslims in India seems to be a common theme. Nobody sees fit to simply call a spade a spade. Hindutva is fashioned from hate. The Brits allowed it to prosper certainly, encouraged and unleashed it, but even they can't answer for what it's become. Likewise, the Muslim League 80 years ago and modern muslims of India are not somehow culpable for hindutva's existence or hindutva policies.

A similarly disingenuous argument is made by some that Nazism arose as a reaction to the behaviour of Jews in Germany.

That's of course not the whole explanation; as in independent India, there was no Muslim led party to begin with.
But as a historical fact, Muslim league and Khilafat movement precedes the main organisations and works of Hindutva, maybe someone more history-literate can add to this.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, Sir, I shook my head in disbelief when @PradoTLC burst out and told us what he really thought of Muslim Indians. If you read his answer, on this thread, it becomes very clear.

There are those who will stand and bear witness to the plight of the Muslim Indian as a duty to themselves in terms of their religion. There are those who support the Muslim Indian due to the rightness of their cause, due to humanitarian reasons, not as an act of charity, but a restoration of just rights, and of the dignity of an Indian citizen. Then there are those who see Muslim Indians as cannon fodder, to be used to push through a wholly Pakistan-centric agenda. Nothing wrong with that, so long as the Muslim Indian understands which is which, and what may be expected where. I pointed out to @AfrazulMandal and to @xeuss (the third eloquent member of that group has a name that I cannot remember for the life of me) that they need to be aware of these different objectives, but it was a rude shock when I had to point out in addition that they were free to enlist support wherever they wished to.

To answer your question, I made my assessment from the self-incriminating words of the member himself.

There's a variety of opinions in Pakistan with respect to Indian Muslims. You're going to see the predominantly nationalistic (from Pakistan's perspective) view on this forum, where Indian Muslims are going to be 'generalized' & judged based on the perceptions created by the actions/words of what we refer to as 'Sarkari Muslims' in India.

More broadly, Pakistanis that care about the Kashmir cause see India's intransigence on resolving the dispute, it's military occupation & the violence there in very clear black and white terms, and they see the lack of visible public support from Indian Muslims (especially the sarkari ones) for a clear black and white moral issue, as damning. It's not so much about being deceptive or manipulative, but a sense of betrayal. What @xeuss said about many Jews in the US supporting Palestine and opposing Israeli policies - Pakistanis tend to have the same expectations from Indian Muslims (and in fact Muslims globally) about the Jammu & Kashmir dispute.

So, unfortunately, it is the Indian Muslims that seem to catch flak from both sides. For a community pushed to prove their loyalty just because they're Muslims in a predominantly Hindu India struggling with it's 'historical' sense of shame and insecurity over being conquered & ruled by 'Muslims', I understand how opposition to India's policies on J&K is a bridge too far.

 

[padamchen]

Well, Sir, I shook my head in disbelief when @PradoTLC burst out and told us what he really thought of Muslim Indians. If you read his answer, on this thread, it becomes very clear.

There are those who will stand and bear witness to the plight of the Muslim Indian as a duty to themselves in terms of their religion. There are those who support the Muslim Indian due to the rightness of their cause, due to humanitarian reasons, not as an act of charity, but a restoration of just rights, and of the dignity of an Indian citizen. Then there are those who see Muslim Indians as cannon fodder, to be used to push through a wholly Pakistan-centric agenda. Nothing wrong with that, so long as the Muslim Indian understands which is which, and what may be expected where. I pointed out to @AfrazulMandal and to @xeuss (the third eloquent member of that group has a name that I cannot remember for the life of me) that they need to be aware of these different objectives, but it was a rude shock when I had to point out in addition that they were free to enlist support wherever they wished to.

To answer your question, I made my assessment from the self-incriminating words of the member himself.

How can you be free to enlist support from.the enemy when the country you live in and are a citizen of is at war with them.

Joe please man, rein in the liberalism with some realism ....

 

[Joe Shearer]

How can you be free to enlist support from.the enemy when the country you live in and are a citizen of is at war with them.

Joe please man, rein in the liberalism with some realism ....



I would not advise it.

It's not pretty.

Disillusionment with the enemy hurts harder.

And what of the war that is being waged on Muslims? The Christians are next on the list. You already know about the attacks on liberal Hindus. What exactly should we wait for? To have our houses raided and to be jailed, like those accused of inciting riots against the Marathas, when the Marathas themselves attacked the Mahars?

What war is there with Pakistan? The only war - the only casualties, the only POWs - are existing citizens of the country. What will you do to ensure their security? If you do not ensure their security, what are you proposing? That they all push their chins up for the blade to pass more easily?