A simple question on Reciprocity of Arms Trade

[Mav3rick]

Friends & fellow Countrymen,

I have a very simple question, which has been bothering me for a few years now. Some introduction before the question.

Our ally, US, is selling Billions of Dollars worth of Military equipment to India. Probability of that equipment being used against Pakistan is a lot more than of it being used against China or any other country. This despite the fact that India refuses to accede to UN resolution on Kashmir and her acts of terrorism against Kashmiris and against Pakistan through their missions in Afghanistan.

Israel, in defiance of all rules, regulations and UN resolutions, continues to suppress Palestinians and uses disproportionate force against unarmed Palestinians. Israel also continues to sell high tech Military technology to India which has already been used against Pakistan.

My question is, why don't we provide weapons to Palestinians? They too should be able to defend themselves. Why don't we arm Talibaan to fight off ISIS which are a threat to the entire world? What justifications do we have to continue alliance with our covert enemy which is strengthening our core enemies day in and day out? These are all basically one big question.......how can we allow the US to sell weapon systems to India and still continue to engage with her on so many matters? Why did we not break off the moment US decided to sell anti-Pakistan weapon system to India???

 

[Sharpshooter12]

My question is, why don't we provide weapons to Palestinians?

Because Palestinians care more about their relationship with India than with us. You do know that they have just gave their highest civil award to Modi and they recalled their ambassador to Pakistan because he shared a stage with JUD chief.

So they won't accept your weapons. Now if you mean providing weapons to Hamas, then that will mean alienating all the arab partners(KSA and GCC), joining the Iranian camp and putting our self at risk of being declared a terror sponsor.

how can we allow the US to sell weapon systems to India and still continue to engage with her on so many matters? Why did we not break off the moment US decided to sell anti-Pakistan weapon system to India???

No brother this world is not fair, so deal with it. US is a super power, it sells weapons to whatever state it wishes to. India is one of the largest arms importer and US is not going to let Russia, France and Israel have all the fun. Besides India has a much bigger role to play in US designs in containing China so naturally they will arm them.

We are already hard pressed while dealing with an enemy that is 7 times larger than us. No need to make an enemy out of the world's sole super power.

You must have seen news that govt is cracking down on JUD and its affiliates. All the US had to do to achieve this was put a motion in FATF to place Pakistan on terror-financing watchlist. This will not mean sanctions, just that doing business with Pakistan will become that more hectic and hence less FDI. So as I said no need to poke the bear or bald eagle in this case, more than what we need to further our strategic aims. After all Talibans survived and thrived in Afghanistan for last 17 years for a reason.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Friends & fellow Countrymen,

I have a very simple question, which has been bothering me for a few years now. Some introduction before the question.

Our ally, US, is selling Billions of Dollars worth of Military equipment to India. Probability of that equipment being used against Pakistan is a lot more than of it being used against China or any other country. This despite the fact that India refuses to accede to UN resolution on Kashmir and her acts of terrorism against Kashmiris and against Pakistan through their missions in Afghanistan.

Israel, in defiance of all rules, regulations and UN resolutions, continues to suppress Palestinians and uses disproportionate force against unarmed Palestinians. Israel also continues to sell high tech Military technology to India which has already been used against Pakistan.

My question is, why don't we provide weapons to Palestinians? They too should be able to defend themselves. Why don't we arm Talibaan to fight off ISIS which are a threat to the entire world? What justifications do we have to continue alliance with our covert enemy which is strengthening our core enemies day in and day out? These are all basically one big question.......how can we allow the US to sell weapon systems to India and still continue to engage with her on so many matters? Why did we not break off the moment US decided to sell anti-Pakistan weapon system to India???

Eastab is spineless,unmotivated,not determined to do anything about foreign relations.
Our foreign policy as a whole is a circus,a joke and much like a fish market.
It's always jumping between US and China.
After one another Pakistanis are providing favours to chinese for "what"a loan which we would pay for interest or a UN Veto?
We are actually being sold to highest bidder,under guise of patriotism and religion.

 

[wiseone2]

Friends & fellow Countrymen,

I have a very simple question, which has been bothering me for a few years now. Some introduction before the question.

Our ally, US, is selling Billions of Dollars worth of Military equipment to India. Probability of that equipment being used against Pakistan is a lot more than of it being used against China or any other country. This despite the fact that India refuses to accede to UN resolution on Kashmir and her acts of terrorism against Kashmiris and against Pakistan through their missions in Afghanistan.

Israel, in defiance of all rules, regulations and UN resolutions, continues to suppress Palestinians and uses disproportionate force against unarmed Palestinians. Israel also continues to sell high tech Military technology to India which has already been used against Pakistan.

My question is, why don't we provide weapons to Palestinians? They too should be able to defend themselves. Why don't we arm Talibaan to fight off ISIS which are a threat to the entire world? What justifications do we have to continue alliance with our covert enemy which is strengthening our core enemies day in and day out? These are all basically one big question.......how can we allow the US to sell weapon systems to India and still continue to engage with her on so many matters? Why did we not break off the moment US decided to sell anti-Pakistan weapon system to India???

Russia sells India more lethal equipment - T-90 tanks, Brahmos missiles, Su-30 & MiG-29 combat aircraft
Why don't you cut ties to Russia ?

 

[Mav3rick]

Russia sells India more lethal equipment - T-90 tanks, Brahmos missiles, Su-30 & MiG-29 combat aircraft
Why don't you cut ties to Russia ?

Russians are not our so called 'Allies'. They can do pretty much whatever they want.

The US on the other hand has been an 'Ally' since 2001; Allies don't sell high tech weapons to the enemies of their 'Allies'!! And when it happens, it should be both ways.10 Dozen or so Stinger Launchers changed the outcome of Soviet invasion......that is just a hint.

 

[wiseone2]

Russians are not our so called 'Allies'. They can do pretty much whatever they want.

The US on the other hand has been an 'Ally' since 2001; Allies don't sell high tech weapons to the enemies of their 'Allies'!! And when it happens, it should be both ways.10 Dozen or so Stinger Launchers changed the outcome of Soviet invasion......that is just a hint.

fair enough sir

What sophisticated weapons has USA sold India ?

 

[Mav3rick]

Because Palestinians care more about their relationship with India than with us. You do know that they have just gave their highest civil award to Modi and they recalled their ambassador to Pakistan because he shared a stage with JUD chief.

So they won't accept your weapons. Now if you mean providing weapons to Hamas, then that will mean alienating all the arab partners(KSA and GCC), joining the Iranian camp and putting our self at risk of being declared a terror sponsor.

I meant Palestinians; those who wish to liberate themselves from occupation and are willing to fight for their cause. By the way, Palestinians were caught between a rock and a hard place when their Ambassador was spotted with JuD as India had just voted in their favour and against the US at UN regarding shifting of US Embassy.

No brother this world is not fair, so deal with it. US is a super power, it sells weapons to whatever state it wishes to. India is one of the largest arms importer and US is not going to let Russia, France and Israel have all the fun. Besides India has a much bigger role to play in US designs in containing China so naturally they will arm them.

We are already hard pressed while dealing with an enemy that is 7 times larger than us. No need to make an enemy out of the world's sole super power.

You must have seen news that govt is cracking down on JUD and its affiliates. All the US had to do to achieve this was put a motion in FATF to place Pakistan on terror-financing watchlist. This will not mean sanctions, just that doing business with Pakistan will become that more hectic and hence less FDI. So as I said no need to poke the bear or bald eagle in this case, more than what we need to further our strategic aims. After all Talibans survived and thrived in Afghanistan for last 17 years for a reason.

The world is not fair, agreed.

But atleast we could create hue and fuss over each and every weapons deal between India and the US; we can advocate against it at each and every forum, collectively and individually through our embassies. The only question we need to put up to the entire world is why our so called ally continues to demand our sacrifices and yet still continues to arm our only enemy with which we have fought 3.5 wars. This question should be asked so many times and so loudly that it should overtake any demands that the US makes of us in regards to Haqqani network.

While it is true that it would be unwise to make an enemy out of the US, if it is not an overt enemy already since it is working against our interests globally. Is it also not true that the US can not even sustain their activity in Afghanistan if we suspend Military assistance, sharing of intelligence and GLOC/ALOC? Why should we live in fear of what the US would do, I mean what has the US done to Iran or North Korea?

On top of it all, China already has enough hostilities close to her borders, she would not allow Pakistan to be pulled around by the US. In the coming years, China will continue to influence more and more countries. It is time we take some risks and put the ball in US's court.

fair enough sir

What sophisticated weapons has USA sold India ?

P-8i's, Artillary, open offer for sale and ToT for F-18's and F-16's Block 70 etc., that is all just from the top of my mind.

All that, if ever used in actual combat, would be used against Pakistan and not China. The chances of a war between China and India are negligible.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Sab doller ka chakar hai bhai

Friends & fellow Countrymen,

I have a very simple question, which has been bothering me for a few years now. Some introduction before the question.

Our ally, US, is selling Billions of Dollars worth of Military equipment to India. Probability of that equipment being used against Pakistan is a lot more than of it being used against China or any other country. This despite the fact that India refuses to accede to UN resolution on Kashmir and her acts of terrorism against Kashmiris and against Pakistan through their missions in Afghanistan.

Israel, in defiance of all rules, regulations and UN resolutions, continues to suppress Palestinians and uses disproportionate force against unarmed Palestinians. Israel also continues to sell high tech Military technology to India which has already been used against Pakistan.

My question is, why don't we provide weapons to Palestinians? They too should be able to defend themselves. Why don't we arm Talibaan to fight off ISIS which are a threat to the entire world? What justifications do we have to continue alliance with our covert enemy which is strengthening our core enemies day in and day out? These are all basically one big question.......how can we allow the US to sell weapon systems to India and still continue to engage with her on so many matters? Why did we not break off the moment US decided to sell anti-Pakistan weapon system to India???

 

[wiseone2]

P-8i's, Artillary, open offer for sale and ToT for F-18's and F-16's Block 70 etc., that is all just from the top of my mind.

No deal has been signed for F-16 and F-18

 

[Mav3rick]

No deal has been signed for F-16 and F-18

I know, that is why I wrote 'open offer for sale and ToT for F-18's and F-16's'. It is India which refused to buy the Jets, the US was willing and promoting the Jets to India.

 

[wiseone2]

I know, that is why I wrote 'open offer for sale and ToT for F-18's and F-16's'. It is India which refused to buy the Jets, the US was willing and promoting the Jets to India.

I do not know if the F/A-18 Super Hornet is even available. Americans have to make their own livelihoods. Selling weapons is one way. Unlike Pakistan it is not like India is getting anything for free or at reduced prices.

 

[Sharpshooter12]

I meant Palestinians; those who wish to liberate themselves from occupation and are willing to fight for their cause. By the way, Palestinians were caught between a rock and a hard place when their Ambassador was spotted with JuD as India had just voted in their favour and against the US at UN regarding shifting of US Embassy.

Sir its either the PLO led govt. in Ramallah or the Hamas in Gaza that we can send the weapons to. We can't really give weapons to Palestinian civilians, thats practically impossible.

And what sophisticated arms do you have in mind sir that we can provide PLO with that Iranians can't or are not willing to offer them if they REQUEST. The problem is Palestinian authority won't accept such arms, not from Iranians not from us, one they are not having and not planning on an armed resistance and secondly as they are bankrolled by the Americans.

Hamas will accept of course graciously, if you want to go on that path. But then why not equip rebels in Mali against the French for providing Indians with Rafael. Or Chechen or other Caucasian rebels against Russia for providing them, well almost everything.

India has the money, it buys weapons from across the world. If it suits them they cancel the deal, like what they did with Spike ATGMs from Israel. And still Israel will be lining up next time when the Indians need some arms, money talks.

But atleast we could create hue and fuss over each and every weapons deal between India and the US; we can advocate against it at each and every forum, collectively and individually through our embassies.

I totally agree with that. This is something we should do with much more vigor and plan.

The problem is US consider India as its ally as well. We can't tell them to end or curtail their alliance with India when we are the closest ally of their future global rival. It is not providing them with any aid or free arms that we can complain about. It is merely selling them arms like rest of the developed world.

And no they have not denied us their arms at all. We not buying those 18 F-16's was not because US was not willing to sell them to us but we wanted them to pay for those F-16s on our behalf. You see the difference.

Goday Goday pukh hai bhai yahan, so we can't really twist arm of a global super power because it is providing weapons to our enemies.

Why should we live in fear of what the US would do, I mean what has the US done to Iran or North Korea?

Iran had oil and I for one don't want Pakistan to become North Korea.

On top of it all, China already has enough hostilities close to her borders, she would not allow Pakistan to be pulled around by the US. In the coming years, China will continue to influence more and more countries. It is time we take some risks and put the ball in US's court.

China wants us to maintain a friendly relationship with US. They don't want us to become an enemy of the US.

And no US won't attack us even if we openly declare ourselves their enemies. All it has to do is declare us a terror sponsoring country, put sanctions, the west will follow its lead and our economy will grind to a halt. No CPEC won't save us as most of the markets won't want to deal with us.

Pakistani economy was 5 times smaller than that of India in the 90s, at the start of the century it was 6 times smaller, today it is 8 times smaller. Without a growing economy and an open access to global market this gap will further increase, which in turn will increase gap between our respective defense budgets and hence our defense preparedness. Do we really want to go there just because US is selling Indians some arms?

 

[wiseone2]

Sir its either the PLO led govt. in Ramallah or the Hamas in Gaza that we can send the weapons to. We can't really give weapons to Palestinian civilians, thats practically impossible.

And what sophisticated arms do you have in mind sir that we can provide PLO with that Iranians can't or are not willing to offer them if they REQUEST. The problem is Palestinian authority won't accept such arms, not from Iranians not from us, one they are not having and not planning on an armed resistance and secondly as they are bankrolled by the Americans.

Hamas will accept of course graciously, if you want to go on that path. But then why not equip rebels in Mali against the French for providing Indians with Rafael. Or Chechen or other Caucasian rebels against Russia for providing them, well almost everything.

India has the money, it buys weapons from across the world. If it suits them they cancel the deal, like what they did with Spike ATGMs from Israel. And still Israel will be lining up next time when the Indians need some arms, money talks.


I totally agree with that. This is something we should do with much more vigor and plan.

The problem is US consider India as its ally as well. We can't tell them to end or curtail their alliance with India when we are the closest ally of their future global rival. It is not providing them with any aid or free arms that we can complain about. It is merely selling them arms like rest of the developed world.

And no they have not denied us their arms at all. We not buying those 18 F-16's was not because US was not willing to sell them to us but we wanted them to pay for those F-16s on our behalf. You see the difference.

Goday Goday pukh hai bhai yahan, so we can't really twist arm of a global super power because it is providing weapons to our enemies.

Iran had oil and I for one don't want Pakistan to become North Korea.

China wants us to maintain a friendly relationship with US. They don't want us to become an enemy of the US.

And no US won't attack us even if we openly declare ourselves their enemies. All it has to do is declare us a terror sponsoring country, put sanctions, the west will follow its lead and our economy will grind to a halt. No CPEC won't save us as most of the markets won't want to deal with us.

Pakistani economy was 5 times smaller than that of India in the 90s, at the start of the century it was 6 times smaller, today it is 8 times smaller. Without a growing economy and an open access to global market this gap will further increase, which in turn will increase gap between our respective defense budgets and hence our defense preparedness. Do we really want to go there just because US is selling Indians some arms?

sane response to emotional question

 

[Mav3rick]

I do not know if the F/A-18 Super Hornet is even available. Americans have to make their own livelihoods. Selling weapons is one way. Unlike Pakistan it is not like India is getting anything for free or at reduced prices.

On the contrary, what the US will get from Indians is precisely what it would cost; However, from us, they have extracted a lot more than what they have given us!

The GLOC & ALOC alone would have cost significantly more than what Pakistan has been paid in lieu of. The US has flown over 1 million flights using the ALOC alone. Imagine the cost if we were charging a mere USD 25k-50k per flight for use of our airspace. That is USD 25-50 Billion from ALOC alone!!!! Now apply appropriate costs to GLOC too.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Imagine some general traded in all that potential revenue and national integrity for a one night stand with Kim Kardashian or Megan Fox. Like Nawaz Sharif.

On the contrary, what the US will get from Indians is precisely what it would cost; However, from us, they have extracted a lot more than what they have given us!

The GLOC & ALOC alone would have cost significantly more than what Pakistan has been paid in lieu of. The US has flown over 1 million flights using the ALOC alone. Imagine the cost if we were charging a mere USD 25k-50k per flight for use of our airspace. That is USD 25-50 Billion from ALOC alone!!!! Now apply appropriate costs to GLOC too.