Why Indians call 1971 their victory when it was an act of cowardice?

[Chanakyaa]

That's just a stamp. Means nothing. WHERE is the genuine evidence for those claims?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

If by GENUINE you mean the ones that say Pakistan captured more territory, then sorry I have none for you .
It's a pointless exercise, I posted you statements by some non Indian authors, but since you don't like what they say, they are not genuine. If you are asking for some detailed satellite imagery, maps etc, they didn't really exist in 1965, so cant give you those, even if I did, they could always be debated if they are neutral/authentic and what not. It's not really hard to imagine that we captured territory, its you guys who celebrate defense day, so its our forces who were inside Pakistan, not the other way around.

Can you post the links to the statements you posted? If in fact they are genuine. You are making lots of claims but hqve 0 evidence to back them up. GENUINE for indians also mean believing that the iaf killed exactly 350 terrorists in Balakot and shot down an F-16. Are we to believe that too?

I suppose you're also going to tell me that the iaf killed exactly 350 terrorists in Balakot and shot down an F-16.....................that 50,000 Pakistani troops killed 3 million bengalis and raped 10 million bengali women in 2 months in 1971........

 

[Chanakyaa]

Can you post the links to the statements you posted? If in fact they are genuine. You are making lots of claims but hqve 0 evidence to back them up. GENUINE for indians also mean believing that the iaf killed exactly 350 terrorists in Balakot and shot down an F-16. Are we to believe that too?








I suppose you're also going to tell me that the iaf killed exactly 350 terrorists in Balakot and shot down an F-16.....................that 50,000 Pakistani troops killed 3 million bengalis and raped 10 million bengali women in 2 months in 1971........

Yes You did it .

1971 Rapes: Bangladesh Cannot Hide History

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldv...-bangladesh-cannot-hide-history/#7cacfa9816df

My mother told me in 1971, you would send out the men in your family to look in large public parks for the bodies of loved ones who had "disappeared," picked up by Pakistani soldiers. Despite the endless killings and torture, she still says, "There was a feeling in the air that you could do anything. Everyone knew Independence was only a matter of time."

But the one thing we did not hear about as much as we heard about the passionate fighting that defeated the Pakistani Army were the rapes that took place in 1971. Many academics state that the first time rape was consciously applied as a weapon of war was during the Bangladesh War of Independence.

When asked if the usual figures of the number of women raped by the Pakistani Army, 200-400,000, are accurate, Dr. Davis states that they are underestimated:

...Probably the numbers are very conservative compared with what they did. The descriptions of how they captured towns were very interesting. They’d keep the infantry back and put artillery ahead and they would shell the hospitals and schools. And that caused absolute chaos in the town. And then the infantry would go in and begin to segregate the women. Apart from little children, all those were sexually matured would be segregated..And then the women would be put in the compound under guard and made available to the troops...Some of the stories they told were appalling. Being raped again and again and again. A lot of them died in those [rape] camps. There was an air of disbelief about the whole thing. Nobody could credit that it really happened! But the evidence clearly showed that it did happen.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

Can you post the links to the statements you posted? If they are in fact genuine. You also claimed that the iaf killed exactly 350 terrorists in Balakot and shot down an F-16. Are we to believe that too?

Thats Devin Hagerty's book
South Asia in world politics

https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


Thats David Van's book
https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now if you want be to find the quotes within the books, no, do it yourself.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Thats Devin Hagerty's book
South Asia in world politics

https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


Thats David Van's book
https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now if you want be to find the quotes within the books, no, do it yourself.

This will take some time. I will need to find the quotes, cross check the references and then judge the credibility of the authors. Funny how there is no other sources that confirm your initial claims.

Yes You did it .

1971 Rapes: Bangladesh Cannot Hide History

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldv...-bangladesh-cannot-hide-history/#7cacfa9816df

My mother told me in 1971, you would send out the men in your family to look in large public parks for the bodies of loved ones who had "disappeared," picked up by Pakistani soldiers. Despite the endless killings and torture, she still says, "There was a feeling in the air that you could do anything. Everyone knew Independence was only a matter of time."

But the one thing we did not hear about as much as we heard about the passionate fighting that defeated the Pakistani Army were the rapes that took place in 1971. Many academics state that the first time rape was consciously applied as a weapon of war was during the Bangladesh War of Independence.

When asked if the usual figures of the number of women raped by the Pakistani Army, 200-400,000, are accurate, Dr. Davis states that they are underestimated:

...Probably the numbers are very conservative compared with what they did. The descriptions of how they captured towns were very interesting. They’d keep the infantry back and put artillery ahead and they would shell the hospitals and schools. And that caused absolute chaos in the town. And then the infantry would go in and begin to segregate the women. Apart from little children, all those were sexually matured would be segregated..And then the women would be put in the compound under guard and made available to the troops...Some of the stories they told were appalling. Being raped again and again and again. A lot of them died in those [rape] camps. There was an air of disbelief about the whole thing. Nobody could credit that it really happened! But the evidence clearly showed that it did happen.

The source is null and void. The author is a bengali who is vehemently anti-Pakistani. He has 0 sources to reference his claims to GENUINE evidence.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

No Now this is what you will do.

Keep mum and run away from this Thread as The proof you asked have been delivered.
Got ashamed that I gave proof of rapes ? lol



Its forbes.com to be precise.
You can bring all the excuses.. like 7x.. 10x 150x n all. Create fake id "pakistanspecialforces" but dont think you can fool everytime.

no go and cry a river.

btw.. here is another one.. ( i know you will again disregard this one.. lol.. who cares ?)

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/nov/05/bangladesh-1970s-camp-survivors-speak-out

By Lucy Lamble
in TheGuradian

In 1971, during the nine-month war that gave Bangladesh its independence from then West Pakistan, four sisters – Amina, Maleka, Mukhlesa and Budhi Begum – were abducted by Pakistani soldiers and local collaborators. They were among the more than 200,000 women held in rape camps and were detained for two and a half months.

Read above again. It says "LOCAL COLLABORATORS"...............so bengalis with Pakistani soldiers kidnapping bengali women????????????. Sounds very suspicious since there are NO REFERENCES let alone cross references with ANY sources. How do we then even know that those rape camps existed? That they were run by the Pakistani army? The mention of "LOCAL COLLABORATORS" indicates that bengali men were raping bengali women. WHERE in the above dubious source does it claim that Pakistani soldiers raped 10 million bengali women as per indian claims?

Thats Devin Hagerty's book
South Asia in world politics

https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


Thats David Van's book
https://books.google.ca/books/about...p_read_button&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now if you want be to find the quotes within the books, no, do it yourself.

Have skim read the above books and there are major flows in the assertions of both authors with regards to the 1965 war. In both cases, the authors have cross referenced their sources regarding many claims but they HAVE NOT with regards to india gaining territory in the 1965 war. In fact the United States Office for Historian has quoted that by the end of the 1965 war, BOTH india and Pakistan had to return territory that they BOTH gained during the conflict:

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/india-pakistan-war

The fact that an OFFICIAL US Government source is claiming that Pakistan had to return captured territory to an enemy that is more than 7x bigger than it is a HUGE HUGE achievement militarily for Pakistan. That is even way more bigger than the Israelis returning captured territory to the Arabs. They had American and Western support/intervention, Pakistan didn't. All you yourself have proven is that Pakistan did in fact did win the 1965 war.

 

[Kambojaric]

They did what they could to achieve victory. What did we do to avoid defeat? Its natural that your enemies will pounce on you at your moment of weakness. Operation Gibraltar intensified in the aftermath of India's defeat to China in 62. That is why the leadership of any nation needs to have contingency plans and people with political acumen at the top.

What we saw in Pakistan during this crises was a collapse of leadership and the emergence of Bhutto and his psuedo-socialist cronies. Instead of resolving the issue via political means we were due to inept leadership forced to resolve the issue on the military front. A field where we were completely outnumbered, outgunned and outsupplied (in the East). Manekshaw was not lying when he said the Pakistan army in East Pakistan "had no chance". Why then did our leadership let this scenario emerge in the first place? These are the questions we should be asking rather than is India a coward, cunning or shameful.

 

[Ace of Spades]

1971 was simply India, led by a Parsi general, and the Brahmin wife of a Parsi, protecting their way of life. Ensuring their way of life, by protecting one flank.

Any man will fight when his family is threatened.

Rules and morals and ethics don't mean anything then. Only survival.

The Parsis became Indian by learning that from the Arabs and then their own Persian converts.

The Indians learned that from their Hindu converts over the next 600 years.

If any reminder is needed for any Indian about the alternative, then Delhi provided that most recently.

So yeah, we attacked in the best manner possible to attain our objectives.

We did what Pakistan has always wanted to do, has tried multiple times, and always failed.

That's the base summary of the continued angst in a generation of Pakistanis most of whose parents had not even met in 1971.

P.S. I was a 7 month infant then.

You and your way of life was no where to be found after pulwama and 27 feb. And that brings us to the question, who let the dogs out? Though i have to give it to you that your cheers doc drama stopped.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Actually we succeeded on August the 14th 1947 when annexed over 35% of former indian territory to create Pakistan and there is NOTHING indian kind can do to get that conquered territory back again....................yes, we split open wide the legs of mother india to create Pakistan.................. ...........so when is india going to get back GB and Azad Kashmir from 7× smaller Pakistan....... .......






We are strong but fighting a foe that is more than 7× bigger than us and has the full backing of the West and Russia.

No child who is born from his mother says he split his mother's legs wide open to get born---> that's a distasteful way of framing a natural biological process

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

No child who is born from his mother says he split his mother's legs wide open to get born---> that's a distasteful way of framing a natural biological process

india is NOT our mother................."mothers india" is the term used by indians to convey the sacredness of india to them.........

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

india is NOT our mother............

Well you used such language that's why I had to point it out to you

 

[maverick1977]

Just like Feb27. they like to inflate things.. Mukhti bhani training was planned by india in Dec 1969. PM approval and first training camp were setup in March 1970. and from that time onward subservient activities started by Indian RAW, like killing of civilians, rapes and sabatage of bridges and infrastructure. Indian Army was given task in march 1971 to prepare, followed by a brief war.
There is no solution to this conflict, india being a power will never want a peaceful solution as evident in last 10 years. the only thing is sledge and hammer in subcontinent. sad but true.

 

[Vapnope]

Defense, offense, Sabotage & Subterfuge are part of war. There are no moral principles in modern wars.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

View attachment 616716

On 12th of November 1970 East Pakistan now Bangladesh was hit by a record breaking Typhoon which created the largest storm surge in recorded history, and that record still stands.
The storm made landfall at the exact time of high tide and flooded 1/3rd of East Pakistan's land mass , either by the storm surge or by torrential rains .
2 Million acres of cultivated land was effected and the storm hit the most populated areas of East Pakistan.
Immediate death toll was nearly half a million and the death toll kept on rising due to disease and other flood related hazards.
Looking at the recent natural disaster of Katrina in USA and how much time it took USA to assess the matter and arrange relief, the Pakistan of 1970s was even more burdened as unlike USA Pakistan was neither rich nor a super power and it was 1970.

The the cowards came.
The Indians who in the midst of a natural disaster, instead of having any empathy , pounced on the situation to use it against Pakistan.
First they ran the propaganda by portraying deaths caused by storm as heaps of dead Bengalis killed by Pakistan army. Then they created Mukti Bahini who hindered the rescue and relief efforts of Pakistan army.
Today Indian take pride in 1971 , but it was a catastrophe created by India which killed Millions.
The crops destroyed and arable land drowned under salt water , could not recover, and after Pakistan army left the disaster continued and India did not help Bengalis.
The post independence Bangladeshi famine killed another 3 Million Bengalis as there was no food available.
This shameful act of India is even celebrated by Many Pakistanis in their hate against own army.
But reality was totally different.

Thank you so much for this thread. You are 100% correct. When Hasina goes, BD themselves will take up research to find the truth regarding 1971 and many surprises await us then.

Right now, BD is having to re-evaluate its relationship with India due to heated rhetoric and Islamophobia. Pakistan stands to gain immensely.

 

[Vapnope]

Thank you so much for this thread. You are 100% correct. When Hasina goes, BD themselves will take up research to find the truth regarding 1971 and many surprises await us then.

Right now, BD is having to re-evaluate its relationship with India due to heated rhetoric and Islamophobia. Pakistan stands to gain immensely.

Even in 80s we had good relations with BD. Everyone knows that India wrote history for Bangladesh. The exaggerated claims will remain exaggerated claims. In coming years, BD will go the on the more independent route and you will see good stuff.