Which AESA radar fits better the JF-17 Block 3?

[araz]

PDF is an open forum, he can speak out what he want. As long as he follow his conscience. Indians will laugh to death when a Pakistani call Chinese weapon junk.

Read my full post on the matter. You may want to modify this one afterwards. Not a good sign when people stop reading what others have written and respond.
A

 

[Basel]

I won't give it a eye of a Indian call Chinese weapon are junk, definitely not acceptable from close friend like Pakistani. It's kind of morale de-motivation and a huge boost for our enemy.


Most Chinese members join this very forum due to iron brother relationship, don't let them down. Yeah, maybe our HMDS is not that good, but it is not junk.

His comment may have come due to reason that Chinese may not be willing to provide their top tier product and only some water down version which few in military didn't like.

 

[帅的一匹]

His comment may have come due to reason that Chinese may not be willing to provide their top tier product and only some water down version which few in military didn't like.

If so, PAF can refuse to take it. Ask them to bring better one or they loose the bidding.

 

[Basel]

If so, PAF can refuse to take it. Ask them to bring better one or they loose the bidding.

PAF have refused to go for FC-20 as J-10B was not available and FC-20 with suggested changes by PAF was inferior to F-16 Block-52s.

China have got western tech input from Pakistani experience with working them, and due to that many systems got improved, in return China have provided needed equipment (although not on par with western ones) which has worked as gap fillers and work horse of Pakistani military, its always a two way traffic.

There is a reason US don't want any foreign person or equipment where new block -50/52 are deployed, they know that Pakistan will allow Chinese friends to have a look at those just like we did it with crashed stealth chopper in OBL raid.

 

[CHI RULES]

Continue your jibber jabber.



I am blunt and straight forward. At my age, its impossible to change.



I have nothing against China. I will call what i see. You may not know me, but there are others here who already know whether I just a nobody or not. Thanks to your country for all the help, but its not for free. Neither is the PLA system ever given to Pakistan. Fan boy stuff is fine, but unlike you, I have seen myself everything that China exports to Pakistan, and all that China has learned from Pakistan in last 50 years. Your generation has no idea what is between China and Pakistan. However, learn to absorb differing opinions and critique.

Dear Sir, under RADARs discussion I wrote about LY80 induction which u replied that it was not a fully Chinese made. I searched the net and got ur point that it is a development of Russian Bulk SAM.

In same way instead of going for heated discussion with Chinese friends and few of Pakistani please enlighten them and me with some professional figure. Though it is evident that Vixen is more mature than KLJ7A.

 

[帅的一匹]

It is not a matter of being arrogant. You dont know why he calls a certain item junk. Man if only you knew who you were talking to. Suffice it to say he is EX PAF incharge of integration of Erieye AWACS. A man of his seniority checks products day in day out and knows his stuff.
Secondly the forum is an opinion forum. Even if you dont take his opinion as sound agree to disagree and move on. Idont think this has to be made a matter of national pride. His is just an ppinion just like everyone else. Dont take things personally.
The Pak China friendship is symbiotic.We both bring things to the fore and marry our resources together. It is true that there have been problems with Chinese products. But there have been problems with other products as well.
The fact remains that the Chinese for NOW do not have a product that can be comparable to the WEST IN HMDs. That will not remain a problem corever as things advance. The KLJ radar was preferred over the Italian S7 radar . But previously Chinese radars have lost out to Western ones. This game of ups nd downs happens and progress occurs on ones will to get better. So I would not take it so personally and move on.
Regards
A

He may tell me whether ZDK03 AWACS is a junk as we'll, so we can improve it or directly throw into garbage bin. I didn't get offended because he said our product is inferior, he said its junk. Can you easily move on when other call your weapon is junk? To be fair.

 

[CHI RULES]

It is too broad a topic to try to discuss all what IAF can throw at us and I think that it is also more about already made up minds and impressions which are hard to unravel without giving away too many details..

On a theoretical level, I hope that you understand that all fighter radars are 'fire control radars' meant to direct BVR weapons and also provide situational awareness. But other ways like AWACS are far better at providing SA and no fighter radar can match this, does not matter what its type is. In radars, other than having a far better 'refresh rate' there isn't much difference between a PESA and MESA. Both are equally prone to same type of electronic warfare. AESA provides lot of advantage in terms of resistance to EW. Also wars/campaigns are not fought with fighters from both sides one on one, sortie rates, availability rates and times to respond as well as overall picture (again SA on grand level) are more important.

Mig-29s, Su-30s, Mirage 2000 do not enjoy any 'qualitative' benefits over what we have..

Rafales and Gripens are yet not in theatre, actually it is not even know if Gripen will be selected by IAF, Rafaela will be in strength by 2021-22. A lot of water would have passed through bridges before that..



Radar range is either total gain or better algorithms to reduce clutters in some modes, why do you think Vixen has got any advantage in this regards? does it provide better gain.. that is news.. better algorithms, you will know better..

I think some users are trying to turn Rafale in same type of 'love' which before M2Ks enjoyed. It is a very good strike aircraft and that is all..

radar detection/tracking/stealth is all about signal to noise ratio, on signal side other than adding patterns to try to clutter returns more, what French have done more.. and no, composites do not absorb radiation..

Noise side is where it is very strong with its EW capabilities but are you sure those will work against an AESA? whether AWACS based or fighter based?



I never said not favourable in short or medium term, you are trying to put words in my mouth..that is not fair. Also if you are unable to understand what I mentioned for the 'long run' than frankly it is useless to discuss it further.

I never put words in ur mouth just gave opinion about your remarks which u do not understand that's why I have requested to Mr Bilal Khan as a pro to enlighten us all as he is also against induction of KLJ7A. He may be able to satisfy u and others.

 

[帅的一匹]

PAF have refused to go for FC-20 as J-10B was not available and FC-20 with suggested changes by PAF was inferior to F-16 Block-52s.

China have got western tech input from Pakistani experience with working them, and due to that many systems got improved, in return China have provided needed equipment (although not on par with western ones) which has worked as gap fillers and work horse of Pakistani military, its always a two way traffic.

There is a reason US don't want any foreign person or equipment where new block -50/52 are deployed, they know that Pakistan will allow Chinese friends to have a look at those just like we did it with crashed stealth chopper in OBL raid.

Thanks for Pakistan's great contribution, you are always act like a window for us access to western platform. Thanks the 10 years honeymoon with USA in the late 1980s, we learned hell lot from the west. We never dare to rest a second in weapon development, long way to go. I still believe our weapon is cost effective and we will try to meet the specification of what PAF demand.

 

[CHI RULES]

I never put words in ur mouth just gave opinion about your remarks which u do not understand that's why I have requested to Mr Bilal Khan as a pro to enlighten us all as he is also against induction of KLJ7A. He may be able to satisfy u and others.

Further if u bring AWACS then I will refer to AWACS killers being installed by IAF fighters. Further PESA radars on SU30 are going to be upgraded soon however in current form they are also still much powerful and u cannot compare KLJ7 with them.
The threat assessment and before hand mitigation is always wise.

Rafael is not just a good fighter but the most capable fighter after F22 and F35 currently under production.

 

[帅的一匹]

I never put words in ur mouth just gave opinion about your remarks which u do not understand that's why I have requested to Mr Bilal Khan as a pro to enlighten us all as he is also against induction of KLJ7A. He may be able to satisfy u and others.

Mr Bilal insinuated that China is shoving junk into PAF's throat. Maybe China shall quit the bidding and let Vixen get the deal automatically.

Now I feel like a sinner.

Further if u bring AWACS then I will refer to AWACS killers being installed by IAF fighters. Further PESA radars on SU30 are going to be upgraded soon however in current form they are also still much powerful and u cannot compare KLJ7 with them.
The threat assessment and before hand mitigation is always wise.

Rafael is not just a good fighter but the most capable fighter after F22 and F35 currently under production.

You can't count on Jf17 to deal with Rafale, it's unrealistic. To suffice it, the only fighter can deal with it in this region is J20. Rafale is very tough to handle with, one can't under estimate it.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

KLJ-7A AESA will turn into
KLJ-7A AES -B
KLJ-7A AESA-C

The advantage with Chinese tech is evolution , and you know how evolution works

I think most people who discredit Chinese tech just don't have a clue about advancement in Chinese Electronics department

a) Chip manufacturing
b) Circuit design expertise
c) Product development and Integration expertise
d) Hardware development

Its the same folks who can't run a Cell phone or smart phone

Its very difficult to convince these old ducks how Technology works
China is making Super Computer and Quantam Computers !!!

Best thing to do is Ignore these folks


Even most of the Advance Tech in Western World is done by Chinese Engineers , who live in western countries

 

[Basel]

Thanks for Pakistan's great contribution, you are always act like a window for us access to western platform. Thanks the 10 years honeymoon with USA in the late 1980s, we learned hell lot from the west. We never dare to rest a second in weapon development, long way to go. I still believe our weapon is cost effective and we will try to meet the specification of what PAF demand.

The problem with Pakistan is that we are facing a huge enemy with good economy and whole west and their allies see it as counter of rising China due to which they are allow equipment and tech to them which usually they don't sale outside west and their closest allies, making them very potent threat, due do that Pakistan need state of the art equipment and tech to face them, currently China is doing catching up with west in terms of tech and west knows that and are doing everything to stop or delay China.

 

[帅的一匹]

The problem with Pakistan is that we are facing a huge enemy with good economy and whole west and their allies see it as counter of rising China due to which they are allow equipment and tech to them which usually they don't sale outside west and their closest allies, making them very potent threat, due do that Pakistan need state of the art equipment and tech to face them, currently China is doing catching up with west in terms of tech and west knows that and are doing everything to stop or delay China.

India is a realistic threat, especially Rafale. We need to address it seriously by deploying J20 along the border.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I recall people mentioned China can never make Stealth plane or they will make plane in 2030

Well they not only made stealth plane they made more then 1

 

[CHI RULES]

Mr Bilal insinuated that China is shoving junk into PAF's throat. Maybe China shall quit the bidding and let Vixen get the deal automatically.

Now I feel like a sinner.


You can't count on Jf17 to deal with Rafale, it's unrealistic. To suffice it, the only fighter can deal with it in this region is J20. Rafale is very tough to handle with, one can't under estimate it.

If block 3 JF17 can't counter Rafael then it will shall be useless for Pak. Every member on this forum is saying that Chinese tech is developing or becoming nearer to West but so far not better than West.

On the other hand honestly considering China has many options as I believe that Chinese J15,J16 and even latest variants of J11 already have weapons/ powerful AESA radars to counter any sort of threat from IAF. The Chinese friends have advantage of deploying large number of these jets along with many AWACS, however PAF do not have such advantages and in near future no new platform is expected, apart from purchase of few second hand F16s. Even block 52 F16s of PAF are only 18 in number and are not superior to Rafael.

PAF will have to take some bitter and costly steps as and if the want to maintain some sort of parity with India. Many believe that at this stage Vixen offer is better as it shall be followed by ECM/ESM gadgets also. On the other hand the radars or gadgets installed on Chinese latest jets can't be installed on JF17 due to size/space constraints.

I honestly believe that if JF17 block3 gets new Chinese engine WS13 new variant (smokeless and with more thrust), more semi stealth features through use of selective RAM coatings, composites. Next version of SD10 with better range (BVR) and PL10C as HOBS WVR. But integerated with Italian Vixen Radar/Inbuilt IRST and ECM/ESM it shall be able to stand any 4.5th gen fighter of IAF.

On the other hand as per general understanding the KLJ7A can be inducted on any block of JF17 so it may be used for upgrading 80 + previous block platforms along with podded IRST.

Moreover KLJ7A can be offered to future potential buyers as it is obvious that Italian's shall be reluctant to see their sensitive tech being exported to many countries i.e Arab or African.

Pls don't curse your self for personal statement of one senior member who is of old age and living abroad but you should also realize the position of PAF/Pak.

KLJ-7A AESA will turn into
KLJ-7A AES -B
KLJ-7A AESA-C

The advantage with Chinese tech is evolution , and you know how evolution works

I think most people who discredit Chinese tech just don't have a clue about advancement in Chinese Electronics department

a) Chip manufacturing
b) Circuit design expertise
c) Product development and Integration expertise
d) Hardware development

Its the same folks who can't run a Cell phone or smart phone

Its very difficult to convince these old ducks how Technology works
China is making Super Computer and Quantam Computers !!!

Best thing to do is Ignore these folks


Even most of the Advance Tech in Western World is done by Chinese Engineers , who live in western countries

Pak may get their pros involved in research work/further development but we should also consider that Western tech is also not stagnant, they are also developing new solutions at fast pace. The past experiences predict the future outcome and our track record with Italian's is also satisfactory.