What's next warship designs for Vietnam Navy in future?

[Penguin]

@GR!FF!N
Ur Indian so cute ... i guess u didn't read my whole post before write ur comment here ... @madokafc and i discuss how the BrahMos VLS can install on a 1,600+ ton Sigma-class corvette not any Indian DDG ... LOL !

Indonesia retrofitted 4× SS-N-26 SSM (Yakhont) onto one of its ex-Dutch Van Speijk class frigates (2,200 tons standard, 2,850 tons full load)

 

[Penguin]

The only possible i can believe, it's removing front CIWS and install Brahmos VLS at the higher position coz Brahmos length is longer, and might occupy some space of MICA VLS cells ... so with Brahmos VLS but without anti-aircraft VLS-lauched missiles.

The ship's main dimensions are named in the types itself
SIGMA 9113 means length of 90.71m, beam of 13.02m and draft of 3.60m. Displacement 1,700t
SIGMA 9813 means 97.91m in length by 13.02m wide. Draught 3,6m. Displacement 1950 tons.
SIGMA 10513 means 105.11 meters in length by 13.02 meters wide. Draught 3.6m. Displacement 2185 tons
SIGMA 10514 means 105.11 meters in length by 14.02m wide. Draught 3,7m. Displacement 2365 tons

Deck height is 2.75m. Depth 2-deck is 6m. I see a max. of 3,5 decks depth available for weapoms accommodation: i.e. about 9.6m, plus a bit because a) depth 3-deck will be larger than 3x 2,75 and b) some protrusion above deck. Which might just fit the Russian Universal VLS

Universal naval launching complex 3R-14UKSK designed to meet the challenges of destroying of ground, surface and underwater targets using Oniks (BrahMos), 3M-54E, 3M-14E and 91RE2 missiles immersed in the universal launcher in any combination. Thus, in one system incorporates all the benefits of Oniks and Club missile systems.
The complex is designed for installation on the modernized and constructing surface ships and provides:
- Location;
- Routine maintenance;
- Automatic control;
- Combat use of 3M-54TE, 14TE-3M, 91RTE2 and Oniks missiles.
UKSK delivery takes the form of the fully stocked cellar with a sealed individual fire suppression systems, water drainage and ventilation equipment, along with fire control system that greatly simplifies the installation of the complex on the ship and reduces time and eliminates the need to create specialized facilities for ship-cellars. Missiles are placed in the container or w/o container modular deck launchers of Vertical Launch (4 or 8 missiles in each module, depending on the version).
Features:
- The use of missiles complexes Oniks, 3M-54TE, 14TE-3M, 91RTE2 in any combination
- Providing data for firing at surface, ground and underwater targets
- Universal installation below deck for 4 or 8 missiles

By comparison, Russian project 20385

Onyx/Yakhont on the Gremyashy (Project 20385).

Type: Project 2038.5
Displacement: 2,200 tons
Length: 343 ft (104.5 m)
Beam: 36 ft (11.0 m)
Draught: 12 ft (3.7 m)

 

[Carlosa]

@Carlosa : can you spend some time in this aspect for me?

Wow, nice thread, I was busy until late and I missed it until now.

Ok, in my opinion it would be useless for Vietnam to get ships any bigger than a frigate and that frigate doesn't have to be too big either.

Why I say that? Vietnam can only play defensive when it comes to naval, there is no chance for Vietnam to achieve naval superiority in the SCS, so it needs to have a balanced navy with a bit of everything, but having the emphasis in subs and smaller ships that pack a good anti ship punch. That would be complemented by medium frigates with decent air defense capability. Anything other than that would be a waste and lets not even think about destroyers, etc because those are not only useless, but they are so expensive that just don't make sense for Vietnam. Destroyers are ok for force projection, which is not what Vietnam needs to do. Viet destroyers same as any other big ship would not be able to survive. Period !!!!

Vietnam needs to use small surface ships to perform hit and run attacks (assuming that they don't get detected first) and the Molniya class type ships are good for that. What Vietnam needs next on that class of ships is to make a follow on that has full stealth, that would do it.

For the Medium frigate, a stretched Sigma would do it most likely. Sigmas are modular, 7 meter modules. The way I would do it, I would add one module at the front in order to increase the space for the air defense VLS system to extend the present MICA VLS (16 cells) to a Barak 8 with 32 to 48 cells VLS. The width of the ship needs to probably increase 1 or 2 meters.

Why Barak 8? Because that's the best. I would replace the Smart S MK2 search radar with the Israeli MF / Star which is the top air defense radar today and that's it, you have a light AEGIS system in a medium frigate. Barak 8 missiles are only $1 - $1.2 million, compare that to $3 million for MICA. Barak 8 has 70 km range. ASTER is also $3 million, anything European is way expensive.

In addition to that, I would add another 7 meter module near the middle of the ship in order to set up a 16 cell Brahmos / Club / Yakhont VLS system.

There you go, that would be one hell of a powerful ship and not too expensive. There is also a Sigma 11516, that one should definitely fit those VLS systems.

Lets not forget that in case of conflict, the Vietnamese naval bases would be under satellite surveillance and any ship leaving port would be tracked. That's why subs are the primary naval ship to use in case of conflict.

My 2 cents.

The ship's main dimensions are named in the types itself
SIGMA 9113 means length of 90.71m, beam of 13.02m and draft of 3.60m. Displacement 1,700t
SIGMA 9813 means 97.91m in length by 13.02m wide. Draught 3,6m. Displacement 1950 tons.
SIGMA 10513 means 105.11 meters in length by 13.02 meters wide. Draught 3.6m. Displacement 2185 tons
SIGMA 10514 means 105.11 meters in length by 14.02m wide. Draught 3,7m. Displacement 2365 tons


Deck height is 2.75m. Depth 2-deck is 6m. I see a max. of 3,5 decks depth available for weapoms accommodation: i.e. about 9.6m, plus a bit because a) depth 3-deck will be larger than 3x 2,75 and b) some protrusion above deck. Which might just fit the Russian Universal VLS


Type: Project 2038.5
Displacement: 2,200 tons
Length: 343 ft (104.5 m)
Beam: 36 ft (11.0 m)
Draught: 12 ft (3.7 m)

Russian ships such as Project 20385 are nice and their anti ship potential is good, but one big issue with them is that the Russians take for ever to build them, they can't keep up with the orders from Russia and any order for export will take a long time.

Also, their radars are not quite as good as western radars and for air defense they would use the Shtil which is way inferior to Barak 8 / Aster 30.

The best ship being made right now in Russia is the Project 22350 / 22356 frigate Admiral Gorshkov, heavy frigate, 4500 tons, nice ship.

So, as a practical possibility, I don't think that's the best way to go for Vietnam.

Leio misreading, my quote for Kolkata or Shivalik.
Anyway, Indonesia showed us Yakhont, Brahmos could be adapted to even 1960s old frigate under 2,800 tons.

Sure, we folllowing Indonesia to order and build Sigma-class in our country. Next we would arrange its modules, enlarge the hull for our own purposes.

India made designs of light corvettes (500 - 600 tons) with Brahmos launchers, 1 quad launcher on each side of the ship. India is also upgrading their Tarantul corvettes with Brahmos, so that says everything. India puts Brahmos just about everywhere.

if we find enough oil and gas in the SC Sea, we can finance destroyers and aircraft carriers

Drinking that strong German beer again huh?

Hey @waz - put my name in next-time PDF expands its mods, threads like this always have off-topic, rude or unnecessary posts. I'd mod like no-one's ever modded before... seriously though, I'd like to be a mod.

On the topic (so I don't get "modded"):

Vietnam should opt for additional subs, perhaps the Lada/Amur class

View attachment 198478

As for surface vessels, Vietnam needs all aspect defenses, anti-air, ASW and Anti-surface - perhaps a destroyer design, and not a frigate or corvette - like the Sigma, will be needed:

Still, can't go wrong with the French FREMM

View attachment 198487

Or perhaps a partnership with either Japan or India

View attachment 198488

View attachment 198489

Not sure if it would be offered to Vietnam, but the Freedom Class is for sale

View attachment 198490

View attachment 198492

View attachment 198493

The USN has wanted to retire its Ticonderogas, perhaps Vietnam could ask for one? I don't know, just thinking out loud. But it never hurts to ask. Worse case scenario? You keep looking. Best case scenario? You have yourselves and air-defense cruiser!!!

View attachment 198497

The good new is Vietnam has a lot of options, the bad news is Vietnam has a lot of options. Take some time, make the right choice!!!

I'd buy American if I were Vietnam... or Indian or Japanese!

Subs is what Vietnam really needs, but the Lada / Amur are a bit of a risky proposition, they had a lot of problems and the Russians are still cleaning and fixing the design. I think the Scorpene or upgraded Type 209 (ala Dolphin class) made by South Korea would be good choices for Vietnam.

Forget about the Freedom class, that ship can't even go against a light corvette, its a horror story and @700 million on top of everything.

Destroyer is quite expensive my friend.
Quantity has its own quality .Vietnam.need large number of ships and subs.INS Shivalikis already a good choice.Two of them with Brahmos and Barak systems can divert evil eyes.

Totally right !!!!!

Tuo Chiang class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

cheap and deadly.

That's the perfect ship for hit and run attacks.

Because Vietnam has been paying hundreds million to billions for new ships.
So an INS Shivalik isn't a bad choice. It's not so expensive

Remember, India could reach Mars with a super cheap budget.

The problem is, Indian shipyards are totally booked up.

It's great with 16x Brahmos
But does it fit our pocket ?

They do not fit the pocket and they will not make enough of a difference anyway.

you can place it near hangar deck and or replacing the usual yet conventional AShM position in the midship and replace it with Yakhont or Brahmos VLS, Sigma is a modular ship they may came in many variants according to customer taste and preferential to suit their requirements and doctrinal per se.

One extra 7 meter module around the middle of the ship which is where the ship has the most hight should be enough for a 16 cell VLS for Yakhont / Brahmos.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Tuo Chiang class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

cheap and deadly.

That thing is a fcking joke.

Navy stops Tuo Jiang-class trials ~ ASEAN Military Defense Review

 

[Carlosa]

That thing is a fcking joke.

Navy stops Tuo Jiang-class trials ~ ASEAN Military Defense Review

Darn, so much for that. Obviously the Taiwanese don't have any experience designing catamaran ships.

At least the concept is good, but very badly implemented by them.

 

[C130]

That thing is a fcking joke.

Navy stops Tuo Jiang-class trials ~ ASEAN Military Defense Review

lmao, a mark II version will be coming along I bet.

not like they can't make it longer and increase it's tonnage and buoyancy to account for more weight.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Darn, so much for that. Obviously the Taiwanese don't have any experience designing catamaran ships.

At least the concept is good, but very badly implemented by them.

When it comes to the military industrial complex, they are practically a toddler.

lmao, a mark II version will be coming along I bet.

not like they can't make it longer and increase it's tonnage and buoyancy to account for more weight.

Most PDF Taiwanese like Martin and Taishang don't care, because they are taking the pride of the Chinese achievement.

 

[Penguin]

I would replace the Smart S MK2 search radar with the Israeli MF / Star which is the top air defense radar today and that's it, you have a light AEGIS system in a medium frigate. Barak 8 missiles are only $1 - $1.2 million, compare that to $3 million for MICA. Barak 8 has 70 km range. ASTER is also $3 million, anything European is way expensive.

Smart S mk2 is search only. I would select I-mast 500 with integrated APAR

Russian ships such as Project 20385 are nice and their anti ship potential is good, but one big issue with them is that the Russians take for ever to build them, they can't keep up with the orders from Russia and any order for export will take a long time.

Also, their radars are not quite as good as western radars and for air defense they would use the Shtil which is way inferior to Barak 8 / Aster 30.

I posted those only as size comparison in relation to Yakhont/Brahmos launchers

India made designs of light corvettes (500 - 600 tons) with Brahmos launchers, 1 quad launcher on each side of the ship. India is also upgrading their Tarantul corvettes with Brahmos, so that says everything. India puts Brahmos just about everywhere.

Russia has only Buyan-M with Yakhont VL. Including this missile nearly doubles displacement relative to similar versions without Yakhont VL.

550 Tons full (project 21630)
Length: 61,8m
Beam: 10,3 m
Draft: 2 m

949 Tons full (project 21631)
Length: 74m
Beam: 11 m
Draft: 2.6 m

 

[Carlosa]

not like they can't make it longer and increase it's tonnage and buoyancy to account for more weight.

That could be done, but the whole idea for that type of ships is to be small and fast.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Vietnam should try to get their hands on Kolkata Class

 

[Carlosa]

Russia has only Buyan-M with Yakhont VL. Including this missile nearly doubles displacement relative to similar versions without Yakhont VL.
Displacement:
550 Tons standard (project 21630)
949 Tons full (project 21631)

The light corvettes that I was talking about don't use VLS system for Brahmos, just regular canister launchers.

Tarantul Brahmos upgrade.

 

[Penguin]

Yakhont on Nanuchka

 

[Carlosa]

Smart S mk2 is search only. I would select I-mast 500 with integrated APAR

I posted those only as size comparison in relation to Yakhont/Brahmos launchers

That's a nice system too, but myself, I like the Israeli combo.

Saar 5-class corvette upgraded with MF / START & Barak 8. 1400 tons ship.

The same one with three AESA panels forward plus one rearward-facing aft.

Yakhont on Nanuchka

Ha ha, I have that pic too, that's the biggest Yakhont launcher of that type that I had ever seen and in such an small ship, incredible punch, perfect for hit and run attacks, particularly if the country in question has stand off surveillance and targeting.

Having a large quantity of small ships like that coupled with stand off surveillance and targeting capabilities, that's better and cheaper than big destroyers which in the end are just big targets.

Vietnam should try to get their hands on Kolkata Class

Too much money and still, they can't deploy enough of them to make a difference, there is too much difference in quantity with China, plus all the other capabilities that China has, just can't go against that face to face, can only do sneak attacks here and there.

Subs and aircraft is what can make the difference (if there are enough assets).

 

[Penguin]

As much as I like it, Saar 5 had real top-weight / stability issues... which is whyu it often didn't carry a load of missiles in the rear 32 cell VLS, its antiship missiles or a full complement of STIR. Removal of search radars AND radar directors, replacement by MFSTAR could help address those issues. But, Barak 1 it carries is CLOS and Barak-8 is ARH. How would MFSTAR fare with a SARH missile such as ESSM?

 

[Carlosa]

Russia has only Buyan-M with Yakhont VL. Including this missile nearly doubles displacement relative to similar versions without Yakhont VL.

550 Tons full (project 21630)
Length: 61,8m
Beam: 10,3 m
Draft: 2 m

949 Tons full (project 21631)
Length: 74m
Beam: 11 m
Draft: 2.6 m

The Buyan-M is a very nice ship, personally, I like it a lot, but Vietnam checked it out and rejected it because it was designed for the Baltic (If I remember correctly) and it will not be able to handle the rough waters of the South china sea.

As much as I like it, Saar 5 had real top-weight / stability issues... removal of search radars AND radar directors, replacement by MFSTAR could help address those issues. But, Barak 1 it carries is CLOS and Barak-8 is ARH. How would MFSTAR fare with a SARH missile?

In the Saar 5 upgrade, the 64 cell Barak 1 was replaced with a 16 cell Barak 8.

The MF / STAR was specifically designed for Barak 8. The Israelis swear that's the best naval SAM (for that range) and they consider the MF / STAR the best air defense radar in the world, even better than AEGIS (their word). They designed the whole system in order to defeat the Yakhont missiles that Syria has and they are very happy with the testing of the system.

You know, Barak 8 has this incredible minimum range of just 500 meters that is outstanding, dual way data link, etc. Its a really good system, I know Aster is good, but I think Barak 8 is tops and later on Barak 8 ER with 150 km range.